Incomplete Shaod and How Elantrians Are Initiated

[Blightsong]

During a recent signing a question was asked about dead Shardblades and their relation to the Shaod. Brandon responded by saying that there are a large similarity between non transformed Elantrians and dead Spren. This sparked some ideas in my mind and I've come to the conclusion that Elantrians form a Bond with the land themselves, and that is what endows them with powers.

I think that by having an enhanced or strong connection to Arelon (or possibly the culture and its ideals) they 'bond' the country and are granted their powers. When Elantris was broken, their bonds were also damaged which left the Elantrians in the state they were in at the beginning of the story.

Let me know what you guys think. Relevant WoB below.

KARSEN

Is there a similarity between fallen Elantrians caught in transformation and dead shardblades? BRANDON SANDERSON

(exact)- "Yes, there is a distinct similarity." TAGS

shaod, Elantrians, shardblades

Mega Edit:

After the below discussion I decided to message Brandon through Reddit about this theory.

My first question was "Is the bond between Arelon and an Elantrian similar to that of a Knight Radiant and its Spren?"

He responded with "Yes, that is a similar relationship"

My follow up question was "Is there a similar ideal system? Are Elantrians transformed because of their character? Maybe their closeness to the culture of Arelon?"

To which his reply was "Ah, now you're getting into RAFO territory. Let's just say that you don't have to have a Seon to be made an Elantrian, but in the vast majority of cases, you need a spren to be a Knight Radiant. So there are some differences."

Having been RAFOed, I decided to take a new approached, and asked "Does any of this have to do with the personification of culture, as Spren are personifications of forces and emotions?"

He responded with "To an extent, yes."

I am beyond exited to have cracked this code, my follow up theory is that AonDor is made up of what are basicly mega Spren that represent the various cultures inherent in the different countries of Sel, and that these Spren are somehow invested within the land itself, or are a manifestation of it made up of investiture. When someone begins to show devotion to their culture (or maybe when their spirit web begins to show similarities to a kind of ideal representation of the culture) they are bonded to this mega Spren and transform into Elantrians.

Let me know what you guys think!

Edited May 12, 2016 by Blightsong

[The Ninja Yodeler]

That's pretty awesome. I've never really thought of them as similar, but I guess they are.

[Blightsong]

During a recent signing a question was asked about dead Shardblades and their relation to the Shaod. Brandon responded by saying that there are a large similarity between non transformed Elantrians and dead Spren. This sparked some ideas in my mind and I've come to the conclusion that Elantrians form a Bond with the land themselves, and that is what endows them with powers.

I think that by having an enhanced or strong connection to Arelon (or possibly the culture and its ideals) they 'bond' the country and are granted their powers. When Elantris was broken, their bonds were also damaged which left the Elantrians in the state they were in at the beginning of the story.

Let me know what you guys think. Relevant WoB below.

KARSEN

Is there a similarity between fallen Elantrians caught in transformation and dead shardblades?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(exact)- "Yes, there is a distinct similarity."

TAGS

shaod

,

Elantrians

,

shardblades

This WoB also supports the theory. (Accidentaly hit quote instead of edit, woops.)

INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 2015

Shadows of Self - San Francisco

QUESTION

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

TAGS

Dalinar, Stormfather, surgebinding,

Edited May 11, 2016 by Blightsong

[Blightsong]

During a recent signing a question was asked about dead Shardblades and their relation to the Shaod. Brandon responded by saying that there are a large similarity between non transformed Elantrians and dead Spren. This sparked some ideas in my mind and I've come to the conclusion that Elantrians form a Bond with the land themselves, and that is what endows them with powers.

 

I think that by having an enhanced or strong connection to Arelon (or possibly the culture and its ideals) they 'bond' the country and are granted their powers. When Elantris was broken, their bonds were also damaged which left the Elantrians in the state they were in at the beginning of the story.

Edit: I also think that AonDor being in the cognitive realm supports this. All bonds we have seen have been between the cognitive and physical realms so far.

 

Let me know what you guys think. Relevant WoB below.

 

KARSEN

Is there a similarity between fallen Elantrians caught in transformation and dead shardblades?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(exact)- "Yes, there is a distinct similarity."

TAGS

shaod

, 

Elantrians

, 

shardblades

[AliasSheep]

Assuming this is true for a moment, Brandon has said that there's a way to hack AonDor to work wherever. I'm wondering if that way would be something like taking a fragment of the Elantris wall with them something.

[Yata]

It's a nice catch but a "bond" it's a symbiotic relationship between two beings one with average Investiture (and an Human is in this definition) and a High-Invested Being.... But the land it's not a being and therefore it can't be a bond 

[AliasSheep]

It's a nice catch but a "bond" it's a symbiotic relationship between two beings one with average Investiture (and an Human is in this definition) and a High-Invested Being.... But the land it's not a being and therefore it can't be a bond

Hmm. So far we've seen bonds between purely cognitive entities (spren) and physical entities with a strong cognitive element (nightblood). Supposing Elantris had a strong cognitive element, I don't set why it couldn't bond with someone.

[Blightsong]

It's a nice catch but a "bond" it's a symbiotic relationship between two beings one with average Investiture (and an Human is in this definition) and a High-Invested Being.... But the land it's not a being and therefore it can't be a bond 

This is where AonDor comes in. It's just a huge mass of Devotion and Dominion's power sitting in the Cognitive Realm, just like a spren. Maybe that mass of investiture is tied to the land itself and different portions of it are tied to places that are seen as different and grant abilities to each of these places.

[Yata]

This is where AonDor comes in. It's just a huge mass of Devotion and Dominion's power sitting in the Cognitive Realm, just like a spren. Maybe that mass of investiture is tied to the land itself and different portions of it are tied to places that are seen as different and grant abilities to each of these places.

Do You propose that while a Standard Shard (in the Spiritual) may be Connected with users everywhere, a Shard in the Cognitive (what the Dor is) have to be Bonded with the users ? With the limitation we know.

 

Something like the need of different kind of "link" from different pair of Realm's Interaction.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Yata

[Blightsong]

That's a possibility, but I don't think it is exactly like that. I think that while investiture in the spiritual realm can connect to people, it might not be able to achieve the same effects.

[Argent]

Do You propose that while a Standard Shard (in the Spiritual) may be Connected with users everywhere, a Shard in the Cognitive (what the Dor is) have to be Bonded with the users ? With the limitation we know.

 

I like this.

[Pathfinder]

Well if a dead sprenblade is similar to a shaod elantrian, then are there some insights we can glean from the restoration of an elantrian to figure out how to restore a dead sprenblade?

[Argent]

I think the similarity here might be in how both are... fixed, static in the Cognitive Realm. Zombie!Elantrians are stuck partway in their transition, and dead spren are stuck, well, being dead.

[Master_Moridin]

This is where AonDor comes in. It's just a huge mass of Devotion and Dominion's power sitting in the Cognitive Realm, just like a spren. Maybe that mass of investiture is tied to the land itself and different portions of it are tied to places that are seen as different and grant abilities to each of these places.

I was actually considering writing up a post detailing a theory sort of like this, that Cognitive representations of the different nations became invested when the Dor happened, and so the location restricted magics are a result of a bond/Connection to those Cognitive entities.

 

So basically there's really big (probably low-intelligence) super-spren that represent the different nations, and through virtue of a person's Spiritual Connection to a location they're also Connected to these spren, and Elantris helps amplify the effect by amplifying/concentrating/compressing Arelon's spren's power?

 

Though I have no idea how the Moon Scepter letting you use a Selish magic away from its originating location would play into that.

 

Edit: Closer to on-topic.  Maybe the similarity to dead shardblades could have something to do with the cause of the problems also?

 

For the Shaod it was the Reod changing Arelon's geography, which changed the necessary Forms for Elantris to work correctly.  For shardblades it's a Surgebinder breaking their oaths.  So a change in the bonding/power transfer medium?

Edited May 11, 2016 by Master_Moridin

[Blightsong]

I agree with pretty much all of that, Moridin. I wonder if the investiture is personified, as spren are. Shoveled should ask Brandon about this.

[Blightsong]

I'm double posting, but it's for a good reason.

I decided to message Brandon on Reddit, because I might as well try to get an answer out of this. I asked "Is the bond between Arelon and an Elantrian similar to that of a Knight Radiant and its Spren?" He responded "Yes, that is a similar relationship". I guess this means that people are initiated into AonDor by forming a bond with their country. Looking back that makes a lot of sense.

I'm following up with "Is there a similar ideal system? Are Elantrians transformed because of their character? Maybe their closeness to the culture of Arelon?". Hopefully he will get back to me, I'm super exited to have figured it out. Let me know what you guys think.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Blightsong

[AliasSheep]

Perhaps the highly cognitive aspects of the different places on Sel are why the Cognitive Realm is so dangerous there, and why it's so hard to worldhop therefrom.  Also, if this is Elantrians forming a bond with Arelon, if they managed to take some of the cognitive aspect of Arelon (don't ask me how) with them to Roshar, would this grant them Surgebinder-like powers as opposed to being able to use Aons?  We know that Seons grant powers when on Roshar, as they act like the Nahel bond, so I don't see why the bond with Arelon wouldn't do the same.

 

Which brings up another idea.  Seons have Aons in the centre (do we know if there are any Seons with things other than Aons at the centre?  We know they're shards of Devotion, so it could be possible that other nations on Sel have their own Seons using their own forms, maybe?) which means they're associated with Arelon and the AonDor.  Could it be that having a bond with a Seon could extend the range at which AonDor could be used by an Elantrian?  To be fair, that seems like a bit of a stretch, so I wouldn't count on it, but it would be interesting. 

[Blightsong]

I have updated this thread to include all of the new WoB I have received, as well as my thought on them and some new theories, check it out in the OP.

[Master_Moridin]

I am beyond exited to have cracked this code, my follow up theory is that AonDor is made up of what are basicly mega Spren that represent the various cultures inherent in the different countries of Sel, and that these Spren are somehow invested within the land itself, or are a manifestation of it made up of investiture. When someone begins to show devotion to their culture (or maybe when their spirit web begins to show similarities to a kind of ideal representation of the culture) they are bonded to this mega Spren and transform into Elantrians.

Let me know what you guys think!

Just a note, AonDor is solely the magic of Elantrians, unless you just meant Dor there?

[Voidus]

Well if a dead sprenblade is similar to a shaod elantrian, then are there some insights we can glean from the restoration of an elantrian to figure out how to restore a dead sprenblade?

And going the other way does this imply that Elantrians can experience quantum phenomenon like spren can?   (I doubt it since the Elantrians are the recipient of the bond not the providers but I guess the other option would be that all of Sel could be treated as a single particle)

Follow up to this, might this explain the Shaod, Elantrians are being bound into a state and unable to change, much like certain flamespren were. 

I'm inclined to think that it would be something along the lines of the Dor seeking out a cognitive presence to channel it, the largest cognitive presences would be the nations themselves which can then act as channels in the same way that spren do, but since cognitive aspects aren't as active on Sel only the largest can act as a channel whereas on Roshar all aspects have a certain degree of sapience to allow them to take up the power.

[Ari]

It's a nice catch but a "bond" it's a symbiotic relationship between two beings one with average Investiture (and an Human is in this definition) and a High-Invested Being.... But the land it's not a being and therefore it can't be a bond 

 

That's one for the record, if Yata thinks something can't be a bond you're certainly straying into dangerous territory in speculating about a bond, lol.

 

I'm pretty sure what Brandon is having to walk around here is that Shu-Korath has some philosophical similarities to Devotion, and that you need to be sufficiently attuned to Devotion to be initiated as an Elantrian, so arguably being aligned with Shu-Korath might get you a better chance at being initiated.

[AliasSheep]

I'm inclined to think that it would be something along the lines of the Dor seeking out a cognitive presence to channel it, the largest cognitive presences would be the nations themselves which can then act as channels in the same way that spren do, but since cognitive aspects aren't as active on Sel only the largest can act as a channel whereas on Sel all aspects have a certain degree of sapience to allow them to take up the power.

Did you mean Roshar/Some other world instead of Del for the first instance?

[Voidus]

Did you mean Roshar/Some other world instead of Del for the first instance?

I meant Roshar in the second instance?

[AliasSheep]

I meant Roshar in the second instance?

Ah right!

[Yata]

That's one for the record, if Yata thinks something can't be a bond you're certainly straying into dangerous territory in speculating about a bond, lol.

 

I'm pretty sure what Brandon is having to walk around here is that Shu-Korath has some philosophical similarities to Devotion, and that you need to be sufficiently attuned to Devotion to be initiated as an Elantrian, so arguably being aligned with Shu-Korath might get you a better chance at being initiated.

 ... Anyway I write that because the "Bond" as far as we know are between beings.

The Land itself is a strange "partner"... But as someone said in the previous page, if the Dor in the Cognitive was just "Investiture" at the beginning. The collective mind of a country may turn him in many Splinters in the different areas.... We know that a Cognitive Input may change some Investiture to Splinter and Sel has everything needed:

 

 

The general fundamental rules that create spren are Cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. The power develops personality and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen…in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the Cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture.

In the end we may have an Mai-Pon Spren, an Aonic Spren,ecc.... that from the Cognitive bond with compatible Human Beings.

 

Sometime ago, I created a Theory about "Unity" the new Sel's Shard.... maybe I have to re-work on that with this new informations

Edited May 12, 2016 by Yata