Reading from Oathbringer

[AerionBFII he/him]

I have to agree with @DSC01 about the differences in the way they were raised. The whippersnapper Alethi do seem softer than the old Alethi, not that Adolin is particularly soft mind you but in general terms.

 

I have never stated Adolin was good at politics, I stated he was interested enough about it to ask the right questions and to know the end game. In the extract we have been given, Dalinar is not even capable of following simple conversation: either he doesn't care or he is too drunk, I cannot say, but the fact remains he was completely oblivious to the alliance being drawn. Dalinar also has no idea why they are fighting which again contradicts Adolin's general behavior. Adolin does know why they are at the Shattered Plains and why they are fighting which shows a greater insight than his father. It doesn't make him a politician, but it makes him someone who actually has an interest in finding out about the larger picture.

 

I would also states Adolin fights for his father, he fights to please him, to protect him and to fix him from his depression, but he does not fight because he enjoys it. Dalinar fights for his own personal reasons, because he likes it and because he gets more stuff by doing it, but he doesn't do it for anyone else but himself. One character is being centered on the needs of others while the other is being centered on his own. This is a major difference between both characters and it has nothing to do with society or upbringing, this is just Adolin being a more caring moral person than his father was.

 

As for acting like a barbarian, I disagree. It isn't the killing which made Dalinar a barbarian, to my eyes, but his behavior afterwards and before, the exact behavior which Adolin would never exhibit. Killing people who needs killing does not make one a barbarian, but feasting in their blood, yes. In this extract, Dalinar did come across as a barbarian, either he truly is or it merely is perception, we cannot know yet, but I would like to point out the fact Adolin is traumatized by his own actions while Dalinar doesn't even care.

 

 

It isn't about the culture, it is about the behavior the author chose to show to picture in this extract. Whether he truly was dense or not the fact remains young Dalinar, in both extracts we have read, shows a greater inclination to follow his base needs as opposed to trying to understand the greater scheme of things. All through the flashback, Gavilar is trying to tie in an alliance in order to secure themselves an additional Plate and all Dalinar can think about is how he is missing his knife which prevents him from eating his pork. In the first flashback, all he can think about it killing, slaughtering and finding someone more capable of offering a challenge. His entire train of thoughts are about him, him and only him. The fact higher more important things may be happening right next to time is a bothersome inconvenience which he tolerates as long as nobody tries to prevent him from eating and drinking.

 

Now let us examine Adolin's train of thoughts when we first meet him: it wasn't about him. It was about his father, about the visions, about him going crazy and what it meant for the princedom. Yes, it is interlaced with thought about women and how he wished he could be relaxing instead of working, but when push comes to shove, he is glad to help and he wouldn't go sit under the parasol even if offered. He shows open care for the well-being of others while young Dalinar doesn't seem to be capable of thinking about anyone but himself. The whole incident with the knife is rather telling. Yes, it was funny, yes I laugh while I listened to it, but it also highlights just how self-centered this younger version of Dalinar was.

 

Upbringing or no, Adolin thinks about others before he thinks about himself and while he does complain over the codes, he still obeys to them. His father had no care in the world for rules or orders, he did as he saw fit and anyone standing into his path may as well move around before he makes them move. This is a fundamental difference between both persona which cannot solely be explained by upbringing.

 

Are there resemblances? Yes, but to me they are overshadowed by the differences. Dalinar sees to his base needs first: eating, drinking, killing and taking more stuff for himself. Adolin may talk of putting his base needs first: partying, having fun, dressing fashionably, being able to drink more than one glass of wine, but he doesn't act on those impulses. He never once chose to take action on his base needs: each time he does something against the rules/codes, he does it to defend someone else, he does it because he was facing a bully.

 

Adolin can't stand bullies while Dalinar was a bully.

I still stand by what i said about Adolin not naturally being interested in politics, i don't think he enjoys it or is naturally very gifted at it. Knowing why they are fighting doesn't mean Adolin is smarter it means he is aware his uncle was assassinated and they are at the Shattered Plains for revenge. When Sadeas betrays Dalianar the Kholins have no allies and Adolin is there to find out what were going to do about it.

 

I disagree about young Dalinar. He's not a politician, he is a warmonger and a warrior, Gavilar was the politician because he was very good at it and Dalinar waged war, they were a team and balanced each other out and it worked well but the point im trying to make is he nailed in his description exactly what wars about. You are right Adolin prefers Dueling to warring im not disputing that but i think Dalinar doesn't just fight for himself or personal greed. He's following his brother out of loyalty and protecting him and for his brothers dream, he enjoys war and fighting but that doesn't mean it's his only motivation. To claim Dalinar's only there for selfish reasons would be wrong, he does everything he is ordered to and is loyal to a fault, he gave up Navani to Gavilar without even a fight, it doesn't strike me as a selfish man. Nobodies claiming Dalinars more sensitive than Adolin but i'd say they are both as caring.

 

There is absolutely no evidence Adolin's traumatized by what he did to Sadeas, after he murdered him he tossed the Shard out the window wiped the exploration mark off the wall and walked off. He seemed surprised he lost control but not that bothered. I believe Dalinar washed his knife first. Never let it be said Dalinar doesn't have table manors. 

 

In the first flashback he is in the full grip of the Thrill, in the middle of a war, in the middle of a battle. In the second flashback Gavilar is trying to seal the deal, Dalinar has no interest in politics at this point in his life and is thinking how he cant find his knife. Gvailar is the politician and Dalinar the wardog. 

 

I still think there are major similarities between then and of course there are differences between the characters, they are different characters. Adolin's love of women and Dalinar's fascination with only one woman, Adolins fashion sense and social skill and Dalinars lack of either, of course there are more but at their core is where they are similar. Both warriors, men of instinct and both leaders.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

They are similar, to a small extent/but not greatly so. I like this chapter; it gives insight as to what Dalinar was like in his youth and more Gavilar!!! I see hints of future self from WoK in this chapter, fascinating

[Guest]

I have to agree with @DSC01 about the differences in the way they were raised. The whippersnapper Alethi do seem softer than the old Alethi, not that Adolin is particularly soft mind you but in general terms.

 

I still stand by what i said about Adolin not naturally being interested in politics, i don't think he enjoys it or is naturally very gifted at it. Knowing why they are fighting doesn't mean Adolin is smarter it means he is aware his uncle was assassinated and they are at the Shattered Plains for revenge. When Sadeas betrays Dalianar the Kholins have no allies and Adolin is there to find out what were going to do about it.

 

I disagree about young Dalinar. He's not a politician, he is a warmonger and a warrior, Gavilar was the politician because he was very good at it and Dalinar waged war, they were a team and balanced each other out and it worked well but the point im trying to make is he nailed in his description exactly what wars about. You are right Adolin prefers Dueling to warring im not disputing that but i think Dalinar doesn't just fight for himself or personal greed. He's following his brother out of loyalty and protecting him and for his brothers dream, he enjoys war and fighting but that doesn't mean it's his only motivation. To claim Dalinar's only there for selfish reasons would be wrong, he does everything he is ordered to and is loyal to a fault, he gave up Navani to Gavilar without even a fight, it doesn't strike me as a selfish man. Nobodies claiming Dalinars more sensitive than Adolin but i'd say they are both as caring.

 

There is absolutely no evidence Adolin's traumatized by what he did to Sadeas, after he murdered him he tossed the Shard out the window wiped the exploration mark off the wall and walked off. He seemed surprised he lost control but not that bothered. I believe Dalinar washed his knife first. Never let it be said Dalinar doesn't have table manors. 

 

In the first flashback he is in the full grip of the Thrill, in the middle of a war, in the middle of a battle. In the second flashback Gavilar is trying to seal the deal, Dalinar has no interest in politics at this point in his life and is thinking how he cant find his knife. Gvailar is the politician and Dalinar the wardog. 

 

I still think there are major similarities between then and of course there are differences between the characters, they are different characters. Adolin's love of women and Dalinar's fascination with only one woman, Adolins fashion sense and social skill and Dalinars lack of either, of course there are more but at their core is where they are similar. Both warriors, men of instinct and both leaders.

 

The idea was to highlight the difference in between Adolin and his father. If we look closely at both character, during their youth, we see a severe clash in between their behavior, their morality, their thinking. Adolin certainly isn't a gifted politician, I never claimed he was, but in between being a master manipulator such as Gavilar and a drunken brute such as Dalinar, there are several levels of awareness. Adolin naturally ranks much higher than his father and no, I do not think it merely a by-product of a different up-bringing. Why? Because Adolin requires reasons to endorse orders. Young Dalinar, from his own POV, tells us he enjoys being Gavilar's tool, he does not mind it, he does not need to know why he is being used as long as he is being used. Adolin has the exact opposite behavior. When we first meet him, one of the first thing he asks his father is why they are even bothering with the hunt. The king is so afraid of assassins, so why does he want to go onto the Plain to hunt, in a more dangerous setting than his palace. He needs to know why they are there: just being told to go hunt a giant beast isn't enough for him, thus he asks. This is one difference. Dalinar then explains to him the hunt is about proving Elhokar can be a leader. Adolin doesn't turn away when his father tries to explain it to him, nor does he start to ramble about his knife or his hair or he belt or his next kill, he listens, he acknowledges and he understands. He perhaps is no politician, but he also isn't a mindless tool like his father was.

 

This also is where I think the relationship will go bad... Dalinar uses Adolin as a tool, much like Gavilar used him, but Adolin doesn't think he is one nor does he want to. What happens when he realizes the truth?

 

Dalinar, in his own POV, states he fights because people have stuff and he wish for their stuff to be his stuff. He doesn't do it out of loyalty or love for his brother: he does it because, for now, Gavilar's goals enables him to do what he loves: warring. He doesn't believe in the dream, heck he doesn't even understand the dream! He isn't in it for some higher game, he just wants to eat, drink and kill. It is stated quite clearly into his POV just as it is stated quite clearly into Adolin's POV he isn't doing it for himself nor because he wished to, but because he has to in order to protect the father he loves too much.

 

I don't buy Dalinar is more caring than Adolin, not one bit. Dalinar has a hard time being caring with Adolin who is his own son, let alone strangers. What Dalinar is, is fair. He is a fair judge to individuals qualities and skills. He will use his men to the best of their capacities, no matter their eye color. Proving they do their job right, he will reward them accordingly. He will no betray them. Being fair and honest isn't the same as being caring. Caring is when Adolin sits in prison on Kaladin's behalf, a feat Dalinar would have never done. Ever. 

 

Also, Adolin doesn't love women, he wants a stable relationship: he can't get it because he has too many expectation being placed on his head. People expect too much out of him and he feels this pressure, hence each time a girl gets too close, he sabotages the relationship. This is supported by WoB. He isn't some womanizer, he barely made it to first base, but a young man who still has to figure out who he is. In comparison, Dalinar always knew who he was, he never doubted.

 

I agree both men are men of instincts and both are pragmatic, but I disagree in referring to Adolin as a warrior and a leader. We should be careful into not associating Adolin to the roles he has been forced to endorse and those he would have chosen for himself. Dalinar had always wanted to be a soldier and a leader: he is exactly where he always wanted to be. Adolin doesn't want those things. He only wars because of circumstances and he doesn't want to become a leader or a Highprince. He'd be happy not being a prince. Simply because he is good at those things does not mean he enjoys them. 

[Guest]

I have a new pseudo-theory I wanted to share. Since it sprouted from the second flashback chapters we have gotten, I thought it was appropriate to put in here. Now I warn everybody, I do not have a tons of valid arguments to support it, so it can't truly be call a "theory" just yet. It merely is something which suddenly popped into my head as I was discussing the flashback and Dalinar's behavior with another forumer. 

 

This all goes back to... Renarin. Alright, scientific literature seems to agree there is a strong genetic component to autism and while nobody has been able to properly identify it, it remains more or less understood (and observed) autism tends to run into families. Therefore, ever since I found out Renarin was autistic, I had wondered where it came from: after all nobody else seemed to be on the spectrum but him. These thoughts were fueled by other discussions I have read elsewhere where other people wondered about it as well. It seemed as the common agreement was it must come from "mother's side of the family" as no other Kholin seemed to have similar-like disability.

 

I had thus, for the longest time, assumed Shshshshsh must have been autistic, if only very mildly, but the more I dig into it, the more I find the clues do not add up. Sure, we know next to nothing about her, but what we do know seem to go right against this theory or so it seems from my perspective. She is described, unfavorably, by Navani as very calm, nice, dumb, but exactly the kind of person you couldn't hate. In other words, everyone loves Shshshshsh even Navani who tried very hard not to love her. These do not strike me as the characteristics I would expect to find into someone struggling with autism. As far as my knowledge goes, autistic individuals have much trouble in all social interactions which makes me doubt one could have so much ease at being liked/loved/appreciated through social events. Autistic individuals also tend to be very smart, often focusing on small areas of interests, but expressing above the average knowledge on it (see Renarin who's interests are rather narrow and who can babble about wines endlessly): they don't sound dumb. 

 

It just didn't add up nor does having anyone known within the Kholin family being autistic as well, but something else got my attention about Dalinar. Dalinar whom had much trouble following a rather simple conversation, whom was entirely focused on something very insignificant (his knife and his pork), whom is seen to be very impulsive, whom also is very aggressive and a drunk. Not a very flattering portrait, but this one chapter wasn't being very flattering towards Dalinar, besides we all knew he wasn't exactly a nice person when he was younger. This is when all those little clues added up into my head and got me thinking: what if Renarin's issues which are likely linked to some genetic component didn't come from Shshshsh has most people have assume, but from Dalinar?

 

Wait. Am I saying Dalinar is autistic? Nope. Or maybe, but I am saying it is quite possible Dalinar has something which triggers the same genetic. This is where the theory making is going to take a plunge.... As a parent, I have met many other parents with children having various issues and it has always strike to me how AHDH and autism were often linked in the sense children diagnostic with AHDH often have a mild autistic component to their behavior. Not always, but I have seen it often enough to wonder... and I have read about paper articles to make me start wondering if perhaps Dalinar doesn't have it....

 

Of course, since we are not dealing with a child, but with an adult, the signs and symptoms are going to be different, milder and harder to pick. After all, isn't it true, until recently, many children didn't receive the right diagnostic and only found out through their adult years they had this problem? Usually when their own kids have problems of their own...?

 

Signs and symptoms of AHDH in adults are the followings: chronic boredom, trouble concentrating, trouble controlling anger, impulsiveness, low tolerance for frustration, mood swing, substance abuse or addiction. Now, of course, I have only retained those who apply to Dalinar, but it strikes to me there are quite a few of those.... Dalinar has also managed to help himself deal with his issues through a set of very rigid rules: rigidness. This is one associated to autism.... I know VERY far-fetched.

 

I know this is far-fetched and quite outside of the box, but what if the particular genetic which made it so Renarin was born autistic runs within the Kholin family and not "mother's family"? What if Dalinar isn't as neurotypical as we take him to be?

 

So anyone has thoughts on this? Think it makes sense or does it go into the garbage can?

[Argel he/him]

SA3 reading 

Going out in the storm to get his knife stands out.

He definitely could be autistic, maybe an Aspie, who has learned to compensate for it over his many years.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Argel

[Guest]

SA3 reading 

Going out in the storm to get his knife stands out.

He definitely could be autistic, maybe an Aspie, who has learned to compensate for it over his many years.

 

It had crossed my mind as well. Last week, there was an article in the paper about autism and it says, once the individual reaches adult age, the "symptoms" disappears for about 20% of people. It makes it clear they aren't "healed", but they have learned to compensate to the point where they would fail testing for autism. 

 

Still I am not sure Dalinar fits the bill, but I thought it was decent food for thought especially since I never read anyone suggest it before. There is something about Dalinar: he is so rigid, so incapable of compromises. His rules are so strict, he does not allow himself any leniency and there is the one time where he explains to Navani he needs it hence he would fall back to his old self. 

 

This kind of behavior does mark him as a potential candidate for AHDH with a mild autism component. The children of my sister's friend have such a diagnostic: you would have a hard time picking up about the autism part and there are kids, but it is there. It's basically what got me thinking.

[Erunion he/him]

Is there a transcript of this? I'm bad at listening to readings xD

[Guest]

Is there a transcript of this? I'm bad at listening to readings xD

 

Nobody made one yet and I am unsure of we are allowed to. So far listening is all you've got: I resisted for a long time because, just like you, I prefer reading, especially since English isn't my primary language, but hey it was totally worth listening. By FAR my favorite excerpt from SA3. It beats down anything else Brandon has been willing to let slip out.

[scifan he/him]

This one's worth the listen... 

[Erunion he/him]

Yup. You guys were right. It was worth listening too. It was awesome.

 

Funny, clever, great characterization. 

[kraefzke]

Can't listen to it....is anybody doing a transcript or is there one already? That would be really great!

[Argel he/him]

I thought there was a request not to transcribe it?

[Dani she/her]

The wait is torturing 

At least the progress has increased to 58%.