theory Reviving a shardblade

[kenod]

As the title said, this is a theory about how you can revive a dead shardblade (a spren that isn't bonded to it's owner). This theory isn't yet complete, and feedback is appreciated.

 

Step 1. First you need to discover what type of spren the shardblade is. This can probably be discovered by watching the mist you see when the blade materializes. For example, Adolin saw mist in the form of vines when his blade materialized, which probably means his blade was a edgedancer spren.

 

Adolin summoned his Blade, then dismissed it, then summoned it again. A nervous habit. The white fog appeared—manifesting as little vines sprouting in the air—before snapping into the form of a Shardblade, which suddenly weighed down his hand.

(Words of Randiance chapter 50)

 

Step 2. The person attempting to revive the blade must have a cracked soul. This is important because when the blade is revived you will have bonded it the same way as you would with a normal Nahal bond. (Maybe using Hemalurgy or Soulforgery.) 

 

Step 3. Change the way the spren is bonded, this is because a blade presumably is bonded the same way as a Seon, enabling it to bond to people without a cracked soul. Honestly, I'm not sure how this would work, but I think you would first need to change the place of the bond in the spiritweb so it is placed at the crack (not sure if this is necessary, This is some wierd stuff in the Spiritual realm). Secondly, you need to make the bond stronger. (Again, no idea how this could be done exactly, and if it is possible without Hemalurgy or Soulforgery.)

 

Step 4. At this point you should be in the same situation as Kaladin was in when Syl died, and you would need to repeat what he did. This means that you would need to live according to the ideals of the order the spren belongs to and swear the oaths.

 

Please leave a comment if you have improvements, especially with step 3.

Edited May 4, 2016 by kenod

[Dracnor he/him]

 

Kaladin al'Thor

So I noticed during my last read through of WoR that when Adolin summoned his blade, it formed from mist in the shape of vines. Does this mean that the Radiant that the blade was originally bonded to was an Edgedancer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes it does. (He also had a huge mischievous smile).

 

 

Kaladin al'Thor

1) So I was wondering, if Adolin were to make the same exact oaths, could the Shardblade be revived? 2) So it could happen if something else also happened?

Brandon Sanderson

1) Something more would have to happen. 2) Yes.

Those WoB seem to indicate that Adolin (for ex.) has to make the oaths of an Edgedancer. This migth be one of the things to do in step 3 (but not enough, sadly)

 

 

[Vissy]

Ha! That's a nice theory. I like it. So does this mean Adolin will become an Edgedancer and end up with Lift? Is there an Adolift ship already?

[Jondesu he/him]

Ha! That's a nice theory. I like it. So does this mean Adolin will become an Edgedancer and end up with Lift? Is there an Adolift ship already?

That would indeed be a possibility, at least Adolin becoming an Edgedancer. I don't see any way he ends up with lil ol' Lift though. :-P

However, there are some WoBs that seem to indicate Adolin won't be the one, or at least make it less likely, so I started thinking about other characters. I think I've settled on a potential candidate, though I don't know for which order:

Moash

Yep, the traitor. No, what he did wasn't honorable, but from his point of view he thought it was, or perhaps he'll join an order aligned with Cultivation where honor isn't important (or at least not as important). I think he could have the makings of a Dustbriger or Stonewarden perhaps.

jW

[Vissy]

I feel the same way about Adolin. His actions towards the end of WoR make me want to place him as a potential future villain (because Sanderson likes to try out new things), but if that doesn't happen, then I can see him making amends after a Rand-esque "soul-hardening period".

[Guest]

That would indeed be a possibility, at least Adolin becoming an Edgedancer. I don't see any way he ends up with lil ol' Lift though. :-P

However, there are some WoBs that seem to indicate Adolin won't be the one, or at least make it less likely, so I started thinking about other characters. I think I've settled on a potential candidate, though I don't know for which order:

Moash

Yep, the traitor. No, what he did wasn't honorable, but from his point of view he thought it was, or perhaps he'll join an order aligned with Cultivation where honor isn't important (or at least not as important). I think he could have the makings of a Dustbriger or Stonewarden perhaps.

jW

 

Which WoBs are you referring to? As far as I can tell, Adolin is the prime candidate to revive his Blade. Anyone else would be anti-climatic and a severe disappointment for the many readers. I would rather no Blade is revived than having someone like Moash do it. Moash has no connection we could see to his Blade nor does he have the required mind set.

 

 

I feel the same way about Adolin. His actions towards the end of WoR make me want to place him as a potential future villain (because Sanderson likes to try out new things), but if that doesn't happen, then I can see him making amends after a Rand-esque "soul-hardening period".

 

Adolin certainly isn't a villain. Murdering a man responsible for the death of 6000 thousand soldiers who promised he would keep on being a threat as long as he is not the victor, a man promising to never play by the rules and to keep on killing without remorse is not an act of villainy. I just cannot see how the rational could place Adolin as a villain for murdering Sadeas. How about Jasnah? How about Dalinar? How about Shallan? They do have murdered and for lesser reasons, with lesser provocation as Adolin and with a darker purpose. 

[Jondesu he/him]

maxal, I remember reading a discussion about a WoB in which he said basically that we hadn't gotten a POV from another Edgedancer yet, and since we've had a POV from Adolin, that seems to rule him out. It's not conclusive of course, but that's what I was referring to.

jW

[Guest]

maxal, I remember reading a discussion about a WoB in which he said basically that we hadn't gotten a POV from another Edgedancer yet, and since we've had a POV from Adolin, that seems to rule him out. It's not conclusive of course, but that's what I was referring to.

jW

 

Ah I know the exactly the one. The exact wording on this one is very important, especially since the person who asked it first made a report based on memory, but when the recording got out, the meaning became different. I would need to get out the exact wording later tonight when I have time to search for it, but I does not preclude Adolin, of this I am convinced. 

 

This WoB, if I am referring the right one, didn't say we have not met another Edgedancer (this would be very spoiler-y for the Ym dilemma which Brandon does not want to let to rest just yet), it said we have not met a POV for a member of all orders, if we exclude the Heralds. It also is the one which basically rules out Adolin as a Dustbringer by stating we would need to wait for a character from this order to become a main one before learning more about them, since Adolin is never becoming a main character, he was de-factor ruled out. It also is the WoR where it was stated we have perhaps not met a POV character for this order, which again rules out Adolin as he certainly does not qualify as "perhaps not have had a POV".

 

The question is misleading because it first asks for the Edgedancer, then the Dustbringer in the same question, Brandon apparently ignored the Edgedancer part to focus on the Dustbringer. In any way, one thing is certain, Adolin current status is NOT that of a Radiant or even a proto-Radiant. It is not clear if Brandon would indeed count in future members having yet to form a Nahel bond when asked such questions.

 

Adolin is certainly not ruled out for the Edgedancer camp, especially now a Lift novella is being issued a few months prior to the SA3 release......... He is however almost certainly ruled out of the Dustbringer order (and I would add Stonewards and Willshaper to the lot as well).

[Jondesu he/him]

Cool, I hope you're right, maxal. I'm in the camp that would be disappointed now if Adolin doesn't end up reviving his blade, but I don't want to get my hopes up either.

jW

[Guest]

Cool, I hope you're right, maxal. I'm in the camp that would be disappointed now if Adolin doesn't end up reviving his blade, but I don't want to get my hopes up either.

jW

 

Neither do I, but there is a fair chance his story arc will go this way... At this point in time, having someone else carry on the potential Blade revival story arc would be the equivalent of having someone else rescuing Dalinar's army back in WoK   It would also completely ruined the readers expectations: taking a cool story arc and giving it to an unpopular character nobody cares about instead of giving it to the foreshadowed and more popular one is not cool   Though this certainly is a flimsy argument if there ever were one, I have nonetheless faith Brandon wouldn't do this to us 

 

This is, I believe (please correct me if it isn't), the WoB you are referring to.

 

1) You mentioned at a previous signing that we have already met a member of every order of the Knights Radiant. Have we met two Edgedancers, and has the Dustbringer been a POV character?

Brandon: Well it depends on whether you consider the Heralds members of their order. They are part of their respective orders, because they are the head of the order. If you take out the Heralds, you actually haven't met a member of every order yet. I'm pretty sure that you have met two Edgedancers.

 

2) Have we met a Dustbringer yet?

Brandon: The Dustbringers are a bit of a special case, so let's shelve that one for later.

 

My understanding are these aren't the exact words of the WoB as they came out through the recording. The individual was going from memory here several hours after the event.

 

The exact words are the following:

 

Questioner: Have we--  I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant.

Brandon: Yes, I think you have.

Questioner: My question is, have we met two Edgedancers?  And is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character?

Brandon: One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.

Questioner: Haven’t been yet?

Brandon: Nnnnoooo, not yet, I don’t think.  But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.

Questioner: I don’t.

Brandon: Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order.  If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order.

Questioner: [Have we met someone from the Dustbringers?]

Brandon: Well… Dustbringers are really complicated.  /Really/ complicated.  So that’s the weird one.  Okay?  So let’s shelve that one.  You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.

 

These are the same WoB: the first report was not completely accurate, the second is supported by a recording. All in all, Brandon never confirmed we have met a second Edgedancer nor did he say we didn't. My understanding is he purposefully dodged the Edgedancer question in order to focus on the Dustbringer one. He however does state a Dustbringer will eventually become a viewpoint character which implies one currently isn't: this rules out Adolin. It does not, however, rule out Adolin as an Edgedancer.

 

In fact, I'd say the Edgedancers pretty much are the only order which isn't ruled out for Adolin.

[CJ Feboris]

 

The exact words are the following:

 

Questioner: Have we--  I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant.

Brandon: Yes, I think you have.

Questioner: My question is, have we met two Edgedancers?  And is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character?

Brandon: One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.

Questioner: Haven’t been yet?

Brandon: Nnnnoooo, not yet, I don’t think.  But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.

Questioner: I don’t.

Brandon: Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order.  If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order.

Questioner: [Have we met someone from the Dustbringers?]

Brandon: Well… Dustbringers are really complicated.  /Really/ complicated.  So that’s the weird one.  Okay?  So let’s shelve that one.  You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.

 

 

I'm with both of you in the hopes that Adolin becomes an Edgedancer and I agree with maxal above.

 

As a *tangent* to this thread, it brings up something that I've been thinking about a lot lately and that is from the epigraph win WoR:

 

 

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. -From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20. (WoR p. 464 Kindle Edition)

 

So there is one order that did not give up their oaths, one order that was disparaged by the others, and they did not like the epithet "Dustbringers." So are they the ones that are still around? I think the Skybreakers are setup to appear to be the ones that have not abandoned their oaths, they are the red herring, but I think the order left behind, who might just be the Shin, are the Dustbringers. Not sure if there is other evidence to support this but it would make sense why they revere the stone...sorry for the tangent, but it fit so well here.

 

CJ

[CJ Feboris]

Regarding the original post, I think Step 3 is off. I don't think we can change the way a Spren is bonded. Remember they are forcibly bonded to the carrier of the blade in the first place (which is probably the reason for the screaming), but I think it has to be one of two possible options:

 

1) They have to break the bond with the blade when it awakens and allow the spren to choose them

 

2) They have to awaken the blade to a spren and have that spren accept the bond through the oaths

 

I don't think we can get around the oaths despite the fact that the spren were trapped by broken oaths.

[Jondesu he/him]

That's the WoB, thanks maxal, and you're right, it's much less definitive than I had been led to understand. Good to see.

jW

[kenod]

Regarding the original post, I think Step 3 is off. I don't think we can change the way a Spren is bonded. Remember they are forcibly bonded to the carrier of the blade in the first place (which is probably the reason for the screaming), but I think it has to be one of two possible options:

 

1) They have to break the bond with the blade when it awakens and allow the spren to choose them

 

2) They have to awaken the blade to a spren and have that spren accept the bond through the oaths

 

I don't think we can get around the oaths despite the fact that the spren were trapped by broken oaths.

Thanks.

P.S.

Re-swearing the oaths is in step 4, the wording is a bit off however.

Edited May 4, 2016 by kenod

[scifan he/him]

I wonder if this would involve the blade being touched by a current KR... remember how the blade seemed to revive further (and scream at the shard bearer towards of the "full dis-advantage duel"...

[CJ Feboris]

I'm not sure this was a revival, but rather since Kaladin was able to hear the screaming in the "last clap" it was then transmitted to the other shardbearer. Of course it did seem personal and the things that he was saying indicated that the spren was screaming directly at him and not just randomly. So maybe there is something to the revival through a current KR.

[Guest]

I'm not sure this was a revival, but rather since Kaladin was able to hear the screaming in the "last clap" it was then transmitted to the other shardbearer. Of course it did seem personal and the things that he was saying indicated that the spren was screaming directly at him and not just randomly. So maybe there is something to the revival through a current KR.

 

My thoughts are all Blade scream whenever they are forced into the physical realm, but only the KR can hear them.

[CJ Feboris]

My thoughts are all Blade scream whenever they are forced into the physical realm, but only the KR can hear them.

 

Relis dropped the Blade as if bitten. He backed away, raising his hands to his head. "What is it? What is it! No, I didn't kill you!" He shrieked as if in great pain, then ran across the sands and pulled open the door to the preparation room, fleeing inside. Kaladin heard his screams echoing inside the hallways there long after the man vanished. -WoR p. 672 (kindle edition)

 

So my point was that possibly the KR has to assist the non-KR in reviving the Shardblade into spren form. It appears that Kaladin did this when he was fighting Relis through his touch on the blade. It appears that Relis continues to hear the spren after he has dropped the blade because he continues to talk to himself after dropping the blade, this seems to indicate that the bond is somewhat efficacious even in it deadened form. 

 

  Screaming.

  Why could he hear screaming? Inside his head? Was that Syl's voice?

  It reverberated through Kaladin. That horrible, awful screech shook him, made his muscles tremble. He released the Shardblade with a gasp. Falling backward. -ibid. (immediately preceding the previous quote)

But Kaladin apparently cannot hear what the spren is saying in the dead sword, but Relis can, except that it sounds like Syl. The bonding to the blade, I suspect, must do something between the spren and the Shardbearer.

[CJ Feboris]

Thanks.

P.S.

Re-swearing the oaths is in step 4, the wording is a bit off however.

Sorry wasn't trying to say that you had not said they didn't have to reswear the oaths, I was just reaffirming...

[C. James-Mayer he/him]

So my point was that possibly the KR has to assist the non-KR in reviving the Shardblade into spren form. It appears that Kaladin did this when he was fighting Relis through his touch on the blade. It appears that Relis continues to hear the spren after he has dropped the blade because he continues to talk to himself after dropping the blade, this seems to indicate that the bond is somewhat efficacious even in it deadened form. 

But Kaladin apparently cannot hear what the spren is saying in the dead sword, but Relis can, except that it sounds like Syl. The bonding to the blade, I suspect, must do something between the spren and the Shardbearer.

 

I think you might be onto something here, man!

 

From Kal's viewpoint is it explicitly said that he did hear only screaming, he did not hear any speech, as it would have been written down similar to Syl's speech and Kaladin would have understood it. So it's only screaming for him.

 

Relis on the other hand... he ran off the arena screaming something in the lines of "What? I did not kill anyone(you?)" /I can't give the exact quote at the moment/. Remember that the Blade, in other words the spren, is bonded to his soul. Bonding is something on Roshar is a pretty huge deal. Pretty much  half the books are emphasizing on bonding.

 

That means Relis may heard the spren speaking to him even after dropping the Blade, at least that's the implication. The next day after his defeat, Relis is sent back alone to Alethkar in carriage. It is said that it is presumably to hide the shame of the family, but what if there's a darker reason in this. What if Relis continued hearing the spren and everyone, including Ruthar, thought he might be going mad, sending him back to Alethkar to remediate? What if Relis is the first person to walk the path of reviving and bonding a dead spren?

 

Honestly, everyone, I would love Relis to do that. He is not a bad character and he seems smart and honorable. (Adolin was just stupid agreeing to duel 1 vs 4 and alethi take every advantage that comes to them.)

[Guest]

Honestly, everyone, I would love Relis to do that. He is not a bad character and he seems smart and honorable. (Adolin was just stupid agreeing to duel 1 vs 4 and alethi take every advantage that comes to them.)

 

I am terribly sorry but there is absolutely nothing honorable in trapping someone into an unfair fight with the intended purpose to beat him down bloody in order to teach him a lesson for being the better swordsman. Did Adolin make a mistake in agreeing to the fight? Of course he did! He was careless, too wrapped up in his excitement, he didn't see the trap he was walking into. This being said the fact Adolin made a mistake by no way excuses Relis for taking advantage of him in such a cruel way. It was obvious Adolin was NOT aware he had agreed of a fully impaired duel and both judge Istow and Relis are being terrible human beings for NOT telling him right way: "Hey kid careful, you are agreeing to something much bigger than you intend to.". THIS would have been the honorable thing to do: tell him or simply bring along one other person as per Adolin thought he was agreeing to.

 

Not telling Adolin and worst taking full advantage of him in setting in for a fight he cannot possibly win is not honorable: it is indeed one of the most dishonorable act we have seen. It is even possible to see it as worst than Amaram slaughtering Kaladin's squad as he, at least, was swift about it (he didn't try to make them suffer uselessly for his own personal enjoyment). Relis wanted Adolin to feel pain, to beg, to break down and cry for mercy down on his knees: taking away his Shards was not enough, he had to be destroyed in the most humiliating possible way with the whole of Alethkar watching.

 

If only it stops here, but no. When Adolin realized just how hopeless the fight is, he tried to surrender which Relis personally prevented him from doing. How honorable is it to force a foe to keep on fighting just so you could injure him when he is trying to surrender? Especially in a staged fight where surrendering is part of the rules? Adolin WAS beaten. He was giving up: the Shards were theirs, but it was not enough for Relis. Adolin was not broken, he was not crippled, he was not ruined.

It gets even better when Relis further pushes the nail into Adolin's coffin by using Renarin as blackmail to prevent him from trying again to yield, just in case someone actually sees him and calls the fight out for being arranged (which I think it was).

Where is the honor is teaming up to beat down a guy out of pure scorn/hate/jealousy, to not be content to have simply won, but to force the fight to last in order to physically harm him? Even worst, where is the honor in using his untrained brother as blackmail to force him to remain right here while they took their turn to swing at him?

Relis is a dishonorable piece of scum who totally deserved to run away screaming from the arena like a fool. This isn't a path towards Radianhood: this is karma. Besides, there is absolutely no evidence Relis hears the spren after the bond was broken with the Blade and we have WoB stating the only reason he heard it in the first place was because Kaladin was touching the Blade at the same time.

I am sorry but if Relis suddenly becomes a major character reviving his own Blade: I will trust my book onto the wall and write an angry letter to Brandon as to how it was possible for him to do this to us, but I have little fear it will happen. Relis has close to no redeeming quality: he has no other excuses for his actions than being a terrible human being. Moash, at least, had reasons. Relis is just a jealous cruel individual who couldn't stand to watch the Wonder Boy threatening his title.

 

So I am sorry, but no. There is no angle I can possibly read Relis as a "honorable" individual: he is quite the opposite. As for smart, he didn't do nor say anything who would indicate him being anything else than ordinary in this regards. There is no evidence whatsoever Relis is smart.

Edited May 6, 2016 by maxal

[CJ Feboris]

@maxal, I totally agree with you. I think this would be a terrible plot twist to bring Relis as the one to revive a Shardblade, but I still am and continue to become increasingly more convinced that it will require the use of another Knight who has a live spren. The next book will be very interesting because at the end of WoR we have acknowledgement from Dalinar to Renarin that he bonded the blade despite the screaming and the incredible fortitude that took.

 

   "No spectacles..." Dalinar whispered. "You stopped wearing them. I thought you were trying to look like a warrior, but no. Stormlight healed your eyes."

   Renarin nodded.

   "And the Shardblade," Dalinar said, stepping over and taking his son by the shoulder. "You hear screams. That's what happened to you in the arena. You couldn't fight because of those shouts in your head from summoning the Blade. Why? Why didn't you say anything?

   "I Thought it was me," Renarin whispered. "My mind." But Glys, he says . . ." Renarin blinked. "Truthwatcher."

-WoR p. 1073 (Kindle)

 

So whoever it is that touches the Blade will have to have a great deal of respect for the person bonded to a "dead" spren. This would work well with Shalan and Adolin . . . could be and interesting storyline. But SL3 is at 52% of the first draft today so I've got to find some other hobbies. 

[Dahak he/him]

Step 2. The person attempting to revive the blade must have a cracked soul. This is important because when the blade is revived you will have bonded it the same way as you would with a normal Nahal bond. (Maybe using Hemalurgy or Soulforgery.) 

 

Step 3. Change the way the spren is bonded, this is because a blade presumably is bonded the same way as a Seon, enabling it to bond to people without a cracked soul. Honestly, I'm not sure how this would work, but I think you would first need to change the place of the bond in the spiritweb so it is placed at the crack (not sure if this is necessary, This is some wierd stuff in the Spiritual realm). Secondly, you need to make the bond stronger. (Again, no idea how this could be done exactly, and if it is possible without Hemalurgy or Soulforgery.)

Thinking about it. I'm now expecting that the bits Adolin (or whoever) can't do by Fighting Spirit, Nakama and becoming true to the appropriate orders oaths mgiht be fixed by visiting the Nightwatcher and asking for her help.

[AliasSheep]

Maybe fiddling with the gem on the end of the shardblade would change the bond enough to get the bond to function enough with oaths I think it's more likely now that Shardblade holders don't actually bond the dead spren, but instead have some sort of connection with the gem which has a connection with the blade.

[Szmit]

 

In fact, I'd say the Edgedancers pretty much are the only order which isn't ruled out for Adolin.

 

 

I must ask, why you consider other orders of KN ruled out, like for example: stonewards or willshapers?

I suspect that you base your statment on WoB, although I am not aware of any that would exclude them.

I mean, the Edgedancers are the least matching order for Adolin in my opinion, and if it wasnt for his shardsword I wouldnt have ever considered this idea.