speedreader9000 Posted April 17, 2016 Report Share Posted April 17, 2016 Let's continue the discussion on sand mastery that was on the private board. I still have way too many questions and I think some more discussion on this would be great. There are some spoilery stuff for the entire book. Some questions to get the discussion started: How are new sand mages created? Kenton was infuriatingly tightlipped about this. How does something become terken? Maybe bauxite in the sand? Bauxite is aluminium in raw form. Is the sun the source of investiture or is it the sand/algae itself? Maybe the sunlight is similar to the highstorms in Roshar and the sand are like the gemstones. How do you think slatrifying work? How is sand mastery connected to Autonomy? Like how Awakening is Endowment's magic because you can "endow" your Breaths to another thing or person How is the sand connected to the sandlings? Khriss found out that black sand and sandling carapace were similar when she examined both under a microscope. How can sand masters grow in power through overmastery? Does overmastery cause holes in the person's sDNA? How can overmastery strip the ability to master sand? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 (edited) To me the sunlight have nothing special (or at least magical proprierty) and the whole ecology/magic is Plant based.My interpretation of how magic on Taldain work, is this:We have some tiny organism in the sand. These organism are plant like and do the photosyntesis. This organism are vital to Taldain ecology, because they are the food of Sandling (and after bein digest some trace of them may grow again with enough Sunlight). The Sand Masters insted put this organisms under mind control, using their own water as "menace" because like Sandling that organism are killed by water. What happen when a Sand Master stop to use the Sand (and it became Black) is about their control over the Sand became no more and the "water put in the Sand are no longer keep separate from the sand itself).In my own opinion also Darkside have plant based magic and more flexible but rarer than dayside. Because while on Dayside only 2 kind of plant life form may survive, on Darkside potentially many species may grow... but of course they have very less light to proprerly grow. Slatrify work with a "humidy control", after all with my interpretation is quite the base of Sand Mastery. To me Sand Mastery is of Authonomy because you use your own vital reserve to perfome it (your water) and pushing to hard with your own limit (in the and you refuse to accept external source) you may improve your control on the sand. PS: I never considerated the Terker like raw alluminium, nice catch Edited April 18, 2016 by Yata 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calamity Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 (edited) Overmastery: According to Kenton it was more like the example of a builder or something that when he strains and pushes himself, yes he tires and feels exhausted, but soon after, once he recovers, his muscles are stronger and more experienced. Or something along those lines. Heres a quote. “Don’t you see, Elorin? It makes sense. The taboos against overmastery, they are all just to keep anyone else from discovering the secret! I’ve heard guards in the Tower explain to me that the only way to build large muscles is to exercise to the point that you’re sore, and when your strength returns you will be able to lift more next time. What if this is the same thing?” Perhaps Kentons theory is wrong, but the end result is the same. Edited April 18, 2016 by calamity 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 Let's continue the discussion on sand mastery that was on the private board. I still have way too many questions and I think some more discussion on this would be great. There are some spoilery stuff for the entire book. Some questions to get the discussion started: How are new sand mages created? Kenton was infuriatingly tightlipped about this. If I recall correctly I was given the impression it was genetic like mistings/mistborn. That is why everyone expected so much of Kenton and were so disappointed by the lack of strength when compared to that of his father How does something become terken? Maybe bauxite in the sand? Bauxite is aluminium in raw form. I thought terken was the shells or somehow made from the sandlings who were immune to sandmages as well. Is the sun the source of investiture or is it the sand/algae itself? Maybe the sunlight is similar to the highstorms in Roshar and the sand are like the gemstones. That I have no clue yet. How do you think slatrifying work? I posted a random idea that maybe it uses the investiture in the sand to pull moisture from the air but I have nothing to support it. Just a thought I had. How is sand mastery connected to Autonomy? Like how Awakening is Endowment's magic because you can "endow" your Breaths to another thing or person Well if that is a connection then I could see the fact that in order to get stronger you have to push yourself harder on your own, and that the strongest can slatrify, creating water meaning will not need to rely on anyone else would be autonomous. But that is my own interpretation How is the sand connected to the sandlings? Khriss found out that black sand and sandling carapace were similar when she examined both under a microscope. No idea How can sand masters grow in power through overmastery? Does overmastery cause holes in the person's sDNA? How can overmastery strip the ability to master sand? I think that sounds about right. That it is like becoming a savant by flaring or using metals so constantly they increase the cracks in their sDNA to let in more investiture. Of course this is the day I forget my kindle at home, so a lot of this is from memory and could be wrong but I wrote my answers in bold in your post 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 How does something become terken? Maybe bauxite in the sand? Bauxite is aluminium in raw form. I thought terken was the shells or somehow made from the sandlings who were immune to sandmages as well. I imagine he wanted to say that Terken was simply Sandling who assimilate some bauxite during their life from the earth. And in the end they have some traces of Alluminium in their carapace, the Sand Mastery seems quite unstable from its own, therefore maybe some traces are enough 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 I imagine he wanted to say that Terken was simply Sandling who assimilate some bauxite during their life from the earth. And in the end they have some traces of Alluminium in their carapace, the Sand Mastery seems quite unstable from its own, therefore maybe some traces are enough Oooooooooo. Blast! Figures on the day I forget to bring my kindle. I wanted to check to see if it mentions the diet of the domesticated sandlings and if they are also immune to sandmastery. Guess it will have to wait till I get home. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 The essence of Sand Mastery is that you need to take care of number one. Want to get stronger? You have to almost die and be powerless for three days (that was the timespan, right?) I do think I know why Autonomy/Sand Lord doesn't like sand masters. They're using his power, which makes them dependent on him, which he, by Intent, doesn't like. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 The essence of Sand Mastery is that you need to take care of number one. Want to get stronger? You have to almost die and be powerless for three days (that was the timespan, right?) I do think I know why Autonomy/Sand Lord doesn't like sand masters. They're using his power, which makes them dependent on him, which he, by Intent, doesn't like. That and it could be the fact that the sand masters have a rigid hierarchy where they control those below them, and the organization controls or manipulates the city. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedreader9000 Posted April 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 Hmmm I still wonder how overmastery can strip a Sand Master's ability to master sand. Maybe ripping too big of a hole in the sDNA can be damaging kinda like Hemalurgy? Also, I like how Pathfinder compared overmastery to becoming savants in Mistborn. That makes a lot of sense. I also kinda see how Sand Mastery relates to Autonomy now. I wonder then how Skycolors work then. It kinda feels like light manipulation to me. Could anyone find a passage from the book relating to how the Sand Lord hates Sand Masters? I don't remember this part so clearly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 Hmmm I still wonder how overmastery can strip a Sand Master's ability to master sand. Maybe ripping too big of a hole in the sDNA can be damaging kinda like Hemalurgy? Also, I like how Pathfinder compared overmastery to becoming savants in Mistborn. That makes a lot of sense. I also kinda see how Sand Mastery relates to Autonomy now. I wonder then how Skycolors work then. It kinda feels like light manipulation to me. Could anyone find a passage from the book relating to how the Sand Lord hates Sand Masters? I don't remember this part so clearly. Maybe the overmastery forces the cracks open more, but after stopping, the investiture needs time to fill in the cracks? Or maybe its like a flood basin in a river. The river has a standard height. When a monsoon comes, the water floods raising it far higher and digs the river and shore deeper. When the storm ends, the river drains and is even lower than it once was. Then over time it starts to fill up back to its original height slowly and maybe fills in more where the land was carved away in the flood. So the three days are the river refilling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 We have no proof about the mith of overmastered as true. In the end is possible that no Sand Master have never lose permanently his ability through Overmastery... They just fear it like hell, because the Mastrels created this story to prevent other Sand Masters to discover the truth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 19, 2016 Report Share Posted April 19, 2016 So the domesticated sandling (tonk) does graze on sand and water does burn it like acid. Ah ha! Found it! An answer to your question about a sandling's resistance to sandmagery page 21 The sand snapped against the creature's shell of a head and immediately lost its luster, spraying to the sides like a stream of water hitting a stone wall. Kenton stood in confusion, so stunned that the creature's next attack took him in the side, throwing him back against the stone wall and ripping a deep gash in his shoulder. Kenton's sword dropped to the sand, slipping from stunned fingers. The sandling was terken. it was impervious to sand mastery. Kenton cursed again, feeling blood begin to flow from his shoulder. He had, of course, read of terken creatures, but they were supposed to be extremely rare. Only the most ancient and feared of deep sandlings-creatures said to be protected by the Sand Lord himself- had terken shells. How had one come to live here, in the middle of shallow sands and rock formations? Now I didn't post that quote to say it disproves your theory. Just maybe it takes far longer, or far greater quantities, or in amounts that only occur in deep sand. Also, if this theory is true, it seems it is inert in its natural form, and only potent when metabolized into the shell as the rest of its insides are still vulnerable. See quote below: page 23 Its shell and skin were terken, but its insides...... page 375 Terken sandlings were rare. Most of them were as susceptible to sand mastery as humans- more so, because they didn't have blood to wet the sand and make it stale. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 The only thing that annoyed me about Dune, was that there was nothing for the Sand Worms to feed on. At least on this world, there is some kind of biological cycle, some kind of photosynthesis in the sand grains. In his visit to the Deep Sand, what he sees is a flourishing ecosystem of sandlings, presumably all living off the sand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Actually, a lot of them probably live off of each other. The deep sands are probably like the ocean, there are big fish and little fish and the little ones travel in swarms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Could that be partly what makes the deep sandlings terken? That theoretically the smaller sandlings eat the sand (bauxite), and metabolize and refine it into their shells. Then the deep sandlings eat those smaller ones, thereby eating the "refined" bauxite in higher concentrations refining it further making their shells anti investiture. But here is a thought I just had. If the sand itself holds the investiture that the sandmasters use (hence light sand darkening when used), then why don't deep sandlings leave a black sand trail wherever they go? So something about the sandmasters change the sand when they use it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Could that be partly what makes the deep sandlings terken? That theoretically the smaller sandlings eat the sand (bauxite), and metabolize and refine it into their shells. Then the deep sandlings eat those smaller ones, thereby eating the "refined" bauxite in higher concentrations refining it further making their shells anti investiture. But here is a thought I just had. If the sand itself holds the investiture that the sandmasters use (hence light sand darkening when used), then why don't deep sandlings leave a black sand trail wherever they go? So something about the sandmasters change the sand when they use it. At the moment I think that after a Sand Mastery, the Sand become black because recive the Water drained from the Sand Master. Indeed I am still thinking that the power of Taldain is about plant and water also if on Dayside seems strange to think something like that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 At the moment I think that after a Sand Mastery, the Sand become black because recive the Water drained from the Sand Master. Indeed I am still thinking that the power of Taldain is about plant and water also if on Dayside seems strange to think something like that Your theory makes sense in a lot of cases, except for one thing. If that is the case, then why doesn't sand being mastered burn sandlings like acid? And add to that, why then does the terken shell negate it instead of melting? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Your theory makes sense in a lot of cases, except for one thing. If that is the case, then why doesn't sand being mastered burn sandlings like acid? And add to that, why then does the terken shell negate it instead of melting? You have right, or at least the first is easy to fix but the second case is quite troublesome. The only idea at the moment is something about the "Sand" work like a Sponge and keeps water at its inside without release in the outside world (like some fabric in our world). It's needed the powerful UV Ray of Taldain's Sunlight to make the Sand lose water (in the end it make in process the water through some biological process or simply through Heat). Now that I think about the constant need of water from a Sand Master may be needed because the Sun "discharge" the Water inside the Sand while the Master controls the Sand (it's interesting to see if using Sandmaster indoor or outdoor has some differences). But when the "bond"(yeah I know it's an unhortodox use of the word) is disturbed the Sand Master lose more water than usually and saturate the Sand (maybe as part of Sand Mastery the Master create some kind of "buffer" of water and when his control is disturbed, He discharge all the buffer in the sand). Once saturated, the Sand has not need of the Sand Master anymore to obtain water. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) Well first, I do like your theory so anything I state contrary to it is not in an effort to disprove it, but to work it through what we know to lend it more credibility. Two more things I noticed in my word searches that may add or not matter are this: 1. regardless how long you use the sand or how much sand you use, it turns black. So the water or power would be evenly distributed through the entire stream of sand used. There is no portion that is lighter or darker than the rest. Any sand used turns black 2. with the first scene of the book, we see how bright the sand glows and how dark of black it is turned indicates the level of power of the initiate. Drile was so bright that it could be seen from far away and turned the sand black. Kenton on the other hand was a little glimmer, barely seen unless shaded, and his sand turned a light shade of gray. Edited April 21, 2016 by Pathfinder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedreader9000 Posted April 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 The idea of a link or a bond Yata theorised is intriguing. How does the water get drained from the body of the Sand Master and into the sand? So maybe each grain of sand and the algae on it is a lock for investiture. It somehow uses sunlight and converts it into investiture which the Sand Master can release using the water in his body as a key. A direct application of water as shown by Khriss shows a bright flash of light but when a Sand Master masters sand, the sand glows evenly instead of one huge burst. Since a direct application of water in the physical realm is not effective, I think there may be a cognitive aspect to Sand Mastery. We know that for soulcasting, we manipulate the things in the cognitive realm to affect the physical realm. Maybe this concept can be applied to sand mastery but in a roundabout sort of way. The cognitive aspects of the water and sand are linked somehow by the Sand Masters. When the mastery stops, the water in the cognitive realm returns to the physical realm and coats the sand to make it black. Hell, to go even further maybe the water itself is invested somehow. I don't have any reasoning to support this so I'm just spouting thoughts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Well first, I do like your theory so anything I state contrary to it is not in an effort to disprove it, but to work it through what we know to lend it more credibility. Two more things I noticed in my word searches that may add or not matter are this: ..... In the end is possible that the "Sand Mastery Strenght" is just "How much water you may channel in the Sand" of course this mean that someone with an huge "Strenght", for example Drile, may overcharge the Sand pushing to much Water inside and Saturated it. While someone as Kenton (untrained) is just at the point to channel a tiny amount of water in to the sand. In the end when both of them stop their mastery the sand turn dark, but the Kenton's Sand is not saturated. For the moment I have two ideas about the precise working of this (but both have some issues): - A sand Master channels water in to the algae (i keep forgetting this word XD), killing it (as many sand creatures) and releasing his power/investiture, and after with the sun, other Algae grow and refill the dead ones. (But in the end the prolongate uses of the same sand for long is some counterproof to this explaination). - The Algae are "water lover" and when a Sand Master channels water into them, they became capable of "collective work and mobility" and they keep moving while the Sand Master keeps to bait them with a little of his water. When the "Channeling" stops the Sand Master lose his "buffer of water" in the Algae. The Algae are feeded and they have no need of the Sand Master anymore. (This is more probably). @speedreader9000 I have to re-read your post some more time, but it's seems quite fascinating. At the moment here is pretty early morning and I have a test from some hours, I will read with more precision after that. In the end I am waiting the White Sand release to may begin to ask some question to Mister Sanderson 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Having finished White Sand just recently, I haven't been part of the infamous PM thread, so I'll bring something that seems obvious to me - why are we not considering that water could be to sand mastery what metals are to Allomancy - a key? It is the only two times (outside of Lift) where a magic user turns resources from their own body into magic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) The idea of a link or a bond Yata theorised is intriguing. How does the water get drained from the body of the Sand Master and into the sand? So maybe each grain of sand and the algae on it is a lock for investiture. It somehow uses sunlight and converts it into investiture which the Sand Master can release using the water in his body as a key. A direct application of water as shown by Khriss shows a bright flash of light but when a Sand Master masters sand, the sand glows evenly instead of one huge burst. Since a direct application of water in the physical realm is not effective, I think there may be a cognitive aspect to Sand Mastery. We know that for soulcasting, we manipulate the things in the cognitive realm to affect the physical realm. Maybe this concept can be applied to sand mastery but in a roundabout sort of way. The cognitive aspects of the water and sand are linked somehow by the Sand Masters. When the mastery stops, the water in the cognitive realm returns to the physical realm and coats the sand to make it black. Hell, to go even further maybe the water itself is invested somehow. I don't have any reasoning to support this so I'm just spouting thoughts. Hmmm, though if the water itself is invested, then wouldn't drinking it immediately "refuel" a sandmage? Basically if a sandmage had one of those beer hats but with water instead of beer, he should be able to master far longer than he would normally. But that is not the case. A sandmaster still needs time to recover. Maybe the water has to be metabolized for the sandmaster to use its investiture? In the end is possible that the "Sand Mastery Strenght" is just "How much water you may channel in the Sand" of course this mean that someone with an huge "Strenght", for example Drile, may overcharge the Sand pushing to much Water inside and Saturated it. While someone as Kenton (untrained) is just at the point to channel a tiny amount of water in to the sand. In the end when both of them stop their mastery the sand turn dark, but the Kenton's Sand is not saturated. For the moment I have two ideas about the precise working of this (but both have some issues): - A sand Master channels water in to the algae (i keep forgetting this word XD), killing it (as many sand creatures) and releasing his power/investiture, and after with the sun, other Algae grow and refill the dead ones. (But in the end the prolongate uses of the same sand for long is some counterproof to this explaination). - The Algae are "water lover" and when a Sand Master channels water into them, they became capable of "collective work and mobility" and they keep moving while the Sand Master keeps to bait them with a little of his water. When the "Channeling" stops the Sand Master lose his "buffer of water" in the Algae. The Algae are feeded and they have no need of the Sand Master anymore. (This is more probably). @speedreader9000 I have to re-read your post some more time, but it's seems quite fascinating. At the moment here is pretty early morning and I have a test from some hours, I will read with more precision after that. In the end I am waiting the White Sand release to may begin to ask some question to Mister Sanderson A way to know one way or the other regarding your algae theory is if Kenton mastered sand in a sealed vial black, and then left said sand in the sun but still sealed in said vial. If the sand remains black, then it proves that since all the algae in the sand in the vial died, it could not reproduce and turn it white again. Unfortunately I do not recall seeing that occur. Having finished White Sand just recently, I haven't been part of the infamous PM thread, so I'll bring something that seems obvious to me - why are we not considering that water could be to sand mastery what metals are to Allomancy - a key? It is the only two times (outside of Lift) where a magic user turns resources from their own body into magic. I like this theory the most. The water is not invested itself, but the act of mastering sand, turns the water into a gateway to manipulate the sand. But that makes me wonder, would that enable a sand master to master any sand (like how a misting or mistborn can burn any metal that is the correct percentages regardless the planet of origin)? And would then any sand turn black when mastered and then back to white when left out under any sun(like how any metal burned by a misting or mistborn disappears regardless the planet of origin)? Edited April 22, 2016 by Pathfinder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 I like this theory the most. The water is not invested itself, but the act of mastering sand, turns the water into a gateway to manipulate the sand. But that makes me wonder, would that enable a sand master to master any sand (like how a misting or mistborn can burn any metal that is the correct percentages regardless the planet of origin)? And would then any sand turn black when mastered and then back to white when left out under any sun(like how any metal burned by a misting or mistborn disappears regardless the planet of origin)? It wouldn't work like that, I think. Using Allomancy to explain Sand Mastery is not a perfect analogy, even if it is a valid one. If water is a key, or focus, for Sand Mastery the same way metal is for Allomancy, then you can't equate metal composition in the context of Allomancy with different sands in Sand Mastery - you would be comparing the focus of one magic system with... whatever sand is... of another. A better way to approach this, I think, is to say both water and metals allow the magic user to be Invested. Investiture in Allomancy manifests in the ability to perform specific things with it - push and pull in various ways. Therefore Investiture in Sand Mastery would do something similar - grant the ability to manipulate sand, grant the ability to turn sand into water, maybe others as well. The sand itself is no more important than, say, a steel rod is for Allomancy. The miniscule fungus that covers it must be important, but that's a different topic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 It wouldn't work like that, I think. Using Allomancy to explain Sand Mastery is not a perfect analogy, even if it is a valid one. If water is a key, or focus, for Sand Mastery the same way metal is for Allomancy, then you can't equate metal composition in the context of Allomancy with different sands in Sand Mastery - you would be comparing the focus of one magic system with... whatever sand is... of another. A better way to approach this, I think, is to say both water and metals allow the magic user to be Invested. Investiture in Allomancy manifests in the ability to perform specific things with it - push and pull in various ways. Therefore Investiture in Sand Mastery would do something similar - grant the ability to manipulate sand, grant the ability to turn sand into water, maybe others as well. The sand itself is no more important than, say, a steel rod is for Allomancy. The miniscule fungus that covers it must be important, but that's a different topic. Lol actually that was my point (assuming I am understanding what you wrote correctly). A misting that can only burn steel can burn Scadrialian steel assuming it is in the right percentages and can also burn Rosharian steel assuming it is in the right percentages. Steel is steel regardless the planet of origin. So if water is the key or focus, it would not matter the terrestrial origin of the sand as long as it is sand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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