Interplanetary War

[cloudjumper he/him]

So after the Roshar vs Scadrial thing, I had this other idea. Now, what if instead of Roshar and Scadrial, we take all of the Shardworlds? No Shards or Slivers or highly invested characters. All of the worlds are connected by sea and all worlds are the current eras, but Scadrial is Final Empire. All of the rest are the worlds from the most recent books in that world. The political situations remain the same.

 

Edit: I specified a bit more.

Edited April 14, 2016 by cloudjumper

[Voidus]

'current era' is a somewhat vague term, Elantris is set over a thousand years ago compared to Roshar.

[Master Elodin]

Well, I actually cannot mention which planet I think will win, so I'll go with Elantris, as they have flexible powers and Dilaf is investiture-resistant.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Master Elodin

[asterion137 he/him]

1. Scadrial, since kandra assassins+Inquisitors+koloss+thousands of allomancers+larger population than almost every other shardworld we've seen should secure a win

2. Sel 'cause elantrians are broken and anyone who comes near them with less than half a million soldiers is screwed

3.Roshar because they have experienced armies

4.Nalthis' hegemon is a kingdom with 40,000 soldiers. FAIL

no idea for any of the others

[Voidus]

1. Scadrial, since kandra assassins+Inquisitors+koloss+thousands of allomancers+larger population than almost every other shardworld we've seen should secure a win

2. Sel 'cause elantrians are broken and anyone who comes near them with less than half a million soldiers is screwed

3.Roshar because they have experienced armies

4.Nalthis' hegemon is a kingdom with 40,000 soldiers. FAIL

no idea for any of the others

Nalthis does have Nightblood and Kalads phantoms, I'd put them at about equal to Roshar.

[asterion137 he/him]

Nalthis is outnumbered more than 10 to one by a mobilized scadrial and 5 to one by roshar. With Shardplate and Shardblade Roshar should win without a problem. Nightblood can only be used for a few minutes at a time

[Voidus]

Nalthis is outnumbered more than 10 to one by a mobilized scadrial and 5 to one by roshar. With Shardplate and Shardblade Roshar should win without a problem. Nightblood can only be used for a few minutes at a time

Well Nalthis is actually one of the better planets for killing Shardbearers, lifeless assassin spiders or something would be pretty easy to make, plus Nightblood. And they're outnumbered but they have lifeless too, plus as I mentioned the phantoms which are nigh-indestructible. 

[BrightVoid he/him]

Roshar is screwed, allomancers destroy their entire army.  Elantris is a wild card, no one really knows the full extent of the elantrian's powers.  Nalthis honestly depends on how clever the awakener's are.  We see how easily lifeless can cause huge distractions.  Unfortunately, Kalads phantoms are in trouble, because I can see a few shardbearers incapacitating the lot.  As a bonus though, Nightblood disintegrates lifeless, so I see no reason that he cannot do the same to koloss and kandra. 

[Voidus]

Roshar is screwed, allomancers destroy their entire army.  Elantris is a wild card, no one really knows the full extent of the elantrian's powers.  Nalthis honestly depends on how clever the awakener's are.  We see how easily lifeless can cause huge distractions.  Unfortunately, Kalads phantoms are in trouble, because I can see a few shardbearers incapacitating the lot.  As a bonus though, Nightblood disintegrates lifeless, so I see no reason that he cannot do the same to koloss and kandra. 

Given that the phantoms are lifeless I'm actually not entirely sure what a Shardblade would do to them, they're Invested more than the average person so a Shardblade may not be able to cut them at all, but assuming they can then Awakeners would be pretty effective at taking on Shardbearers, so they wouldn't lose all of the phantoms, just however many it took before they realize to keep them away from Shardbearers.

[asterion137 he/him]

nightblood's wielder, unfortunately, will probably die to coinshots before nightblood can do a lot of damage

[Espella]

If the Threnodites found out a way to direct the Shades in battle (which may or may not be what the "ghost gun" in the BoM broadsheet was), I feel like they could do pretty well. At the very least they've got a fairly defensible area as soon as word gets out that when you kill someone in their lands a whole bunch of shades come after you, especially since silver doesn't seem to show up much outside of Threnody (or maybe I just made that one up in my head, but the only mention of silver I can think of is it being very expensive in BoM, and Scadrial has a lot of metal) and they probably wouldn't be able to figure that part out anyway.

 

Though now that I bring them up I remembered the Elantrian crew hanging around in the Cognitive Realm in SH having some sort of defense against the Threnodites, so this might go back to a victory for Sel, since it's possible they've had scouts/cults/whatever those guys were spying on all the other shardworlds, making the only ones prepared for the sudden war (or at least by far the most prepared).

[Voidus]

Sel is one of the more cosmere-aware planets out there.

[A Windspren he/him]

Are the worlds allowed to ally? A Roshar/Scadrial alliance would be incredibly broken...

[Argel he/him]

Sel could potentially fight a defensive war until they work out ways to take the fight to the enemy. They may also have a better chance to detect Kandra given all the "high tech"-like magic than the rest.

[Voidus]

Sel could potentially fight a defensive war until they work out ways to take the fight to the enemy. They may also have a better chance to detect Kandra given all the "high tech"-like magic than the rest.

But Elantrians have also got to be some of the least combative magic-users, they're not a combat unit like Mistborn or Radiants are and they don't have a history of developing tech for war like Nalthis or Artifabrians do either.

[Knight Oblivion]

So after the Roshar vs Scadrial thing, I had this other idea. Now, what if instead of Roshar and Scadrial, we take all of the Shardworlds? No Shards or Slivers or highly invested characters. All of the worlds are connected by sea and all worlds are the current eras, but Scadrial is Final Empire. All of the rest are the worlds from the most recent books in that world.

 

Edit: I specified a bit more.

 

Before I discuss further, I'm going to state some assumptions I'm going to consider when dealing with this premise. I'm going to assume that this sea separating the worlds is a magical thing that has a border between the worlds that prevents weather systems endemic to their worlds and certain natural features of the planets (such as gravity) spread out randomly. That means that things like the Final Empire's ashfalls and Roshar's highstorms only effect said lands. Also, if a character that's important to one world at the end of their most recent book is in another that's chronologically later then that character is in the more recent world. I'll discuss it a bit when dealing with the next quote.

 

Nalthis does have Nightblood and Kalads phantoms, I'd put them at about equal to Roshar.

 

Well, technically Roshar has Nightblood and Vasher as well. Since this could potentially lead to Nightblood vs. Nightblood or Vasher vs. Vasher, I would consider only the later planet/books chronologically to have them. Otherwise, you could have time paradoxes which could destroy the Cosmere.

 

So, by planet in published novels/novellas:

 

First of the Sun: I haven't actually read Sixth of the Dusk yet so I'll refrain from commenting.

 

Nalthis: Currently dealing with vast international instability and on the brink of another "world war". The strongest kingdom, Hallandren, has had two revolts/coups/insurrections with the past year or so at the end of Warbreaker which required the annihilation of their main military force by their hidden "elite" force in Kalad's Phantoms. They're going to look awfully weak and I doubt that any nation on Nalthis would be willing/able to project their power past their planet in this "Cosmere Sea" we have going on. They'd be nice targets if any nation could project its power across the Cosmere Sea.

 

Roshar: Well, as of Words of Radiance, the entire planet is being faced with a potential extinction-level event with the True Desolation and Everstorm. Once the Everstorm circles around to hit the western end of the supercontinent, much of their population might die (not to mention that they'll have to deal with highly aggressive Voidbringers). Their magic users are currently small in number while also lacking in general training, they'll probably be able to prevent the mass extinction of humanity on Roshar but it looks like an uphill battle. Compounded in this is the fact that Roshar is explicitly stated to have a gravitational force of 0.7g (which partially explains bridge warfare on the Shattered Plains and its unusual fauna). I assume that the other planets have similar gravity to Scadrial (which is an Earth analogue) judging by the fact that Worldhoppers don't seem over-encumbered by being there. All these reasons would make projecting power across the Cosmere Sea extremely difficult, if not impossible, while making Roshar essentially a non-factor in any conflict because it's essentially a "hot mess" that nobody would want.

 

Scadrial: I'm a bit biased towards this planet since I love its magic systems but I'll try to be as least biased as possible. Essentially, the Final Empire would probably be the single polity that could project its power across the Cosmere Sea by my estimation. It is, by far, the largest and most unified Shardworld and polity in the premise of the OP. It's led by what is essentially an immortal God-King (The Lord Ruler) who rules a squabbling and fairly magical nobility through the use his terrifying monster priests (Steel Inquisitors) and his general priesthood and, through those nobles, a massive and beaten down peasant base. Magic is common and relatively inexpensive in Scadrial though much of the magic users are illegal peasants that are hunted down internally and often used to make more monster priests. The peasantry can also give rise to a decent professional base. Also, most rebellions by the peasantry have been squashed and, since it's just a Final Empire not necessarily during the events of the first book, they're largely quelled and ineffective. The main problems with Scadrial is that the world is essentially on the slow march to death and agriculture is incredibly difficult due to the ash that falls much of the time.

 

The main question then becomes: would Scadrial even be willing to war? After all, its God-King has been living for about a thousand years and that has to be wearisome.

 

Sel: Sel also has problems with being politically not unified. Assuming that The Emperor's Soul is about 15-20 years after Elantris, things might not be too bad with Teod and the nations on Opelon. Teod has probably recovered from its invasion by the Fjordell Empire and Arelon has probably recovered from its invasion and the end of its disastrous decade spent as a plutocratic, merchant republic pretending to be a feudal kingdom. However, both would be more concerned with the larger and more aggressive Fjordell Empire with its battle priests and monster monks (Dahkor monks) as it's a bigger threat to their existence than trying to project power over a Cosmere Sea. The Rose Empire to the far north appears to be more inwardly focused for the time being and would most likely not have ambitions to spread to another world along the Cosmere Sea. The Fjordell Empire would probably be willing to spread Jaddeth's glory and Shu-Dereth to the other worlds. They're the only real expansionist power on the planet and most likely the only one able and willing to project power onto the other Shardworlds while trying to continue to try undermining Teod, Arelon, and Shu-Korath. They're main problem, though would be keeping up a decent supply line.

 

Threnody: Threnody is seemingly not unified with most polities being fort-type city-states. These city states would probably have a great deal of trouble projecting power across a Cosmere Sea due to the highly limiting nature of the Simple Rules. Their issues with Shades would be a major obstacle to building up a military base to attack the other nations. However, the shades and Simple Rules would largely help dissuade attack by an outside force.

 

Conclusion: Threnody would probably eat up a few expeditionary forces due to its natural dangers. After that they probably would be left alone though Forest Homesteaders might try to immigrate to another world due to the relative ease of living. Roshar is essentially fighting an apocalypse and has problems of its own so it would most likely be ignored by most other worlds due to how much it currently is screwed. Nalthis is politically unstable and most likely unable to project much, if any, power across the Cosmere Sea. However, its political instability would potentially open itself up to invasion/insurrection by the only two polities I feel would be able and willing to project their power, the Fjordell and Final Empires.

 

Yes, with the discovery of lands that aren't screwed up by the Lord Ruler's ascension, he might be willing to invade and subjugate the other lands to preserve humanity. While the Final Empire lacks in military technology, I feel that the ingredients are there for the Lord Ruler to create an amazing army like Prussia did after the 30 Years War. The class system and obedience through the Steel Ministry is definitely there. The humans of the Final Empire also need fewer nutrients than pretty much any other human race and they have canning technology. They'd most likely invade Nalthis and Sel as they're the few worlds that aren't incredibly difficult to live in.

 

Meanwhile, the Fjordell Empire would most likely attempt to spread its religion across the entire Cosmere Sea as Shu-Dereth is a very expansionist religion. They'll probably, at least, keep a minor presence on Roshar and Threnody while actively attempting to convert the Nalthians and Selish. Scadrial would be harder as their god is an actual sliver, with real power (that super Allomancy the Lord Ruler gave himself on top of his native Feruchemy)... insane amounts of power. They'll probably have to contend with whatever Steel Inquisitors and forces the Lord Ruler leaves at home to keep things sane. The Fjordell Empire, however, would probably have supply problems as I doubt they have something as amazing as canned food and their best way of transporting stuff would involve killing people off with their Dahkor priests. While people are always making more people, it takes about a dozen years to two decades for them to become wholly useful.

 

So, the main fighting would be between the Final Empire and the Fjordell Empire. While I think initial skirmishes would end in favor of Wyrn due to their experience, eventually Scadrial would be able to get its act together due to irregular troops like the koloss, Steel Inquisitors, mistings/mistborn, and kandra giving the human/skaa armies a chance to survive and become experienced. Then Scadrial would be able to at least push the Fjordell Empire out of whatever lands the Final Empire conquers.

[A Windspren he/him]

Roshar might try to evacuate its population to another world to escape the Everstorm, which would provide a reason to invade someone. Nalthis or Sel would likely be the best targets.

[asterion137 he/him]

Roshar won't be able to travel by sea very well due to highstorms, the everstorm, and a general lack of seafaring knowledge that i have seen(except for that retard that sailed into a highstorm)

Edited April 14, 2016 by asterion137

[cloudjumper he/him]

Before I discuss further, I'm going to state some assumptions I'm going to consider when dealing with this premise. I'm going to assume that this sea separating the worlds is a magical thing that has a border between the worlds that prevents weather systems endemic to their worlds and certain natural features of the planets (such as gravity) spread out randomly. That means that things like the Final Empire's ashfalls and Roshar's highstorms only effect said lands. Also, if a character that's important to one world at the end of their most recent book is in another that's chronologically later then that character is in the more recent world. I'll discuss it a bit when dealing with the next quote.

 

 

Well, technically Roshar has Nightblood and Vasher as well. Since this could potentially lead to Nightblood vs. Nightblood or Vasher vs. Vasher, I would consider only the later planet/books chronologically to have them. Otherwise, you could have time paradoxes which could destroy the Cosmere.

 

So, by planet in published novels/novellas:

 

First of the Sun: I haven't actually read Sixth of the Dusk yet so I'll refrain from commenting.

 

Nalthis: Currently dealing with vast international instability and on the brink of another "world war". The strongest kingdom, Hallandren, has had two revolts/coups/insurrections with the past year or so at the end of Warbreaker which required the annihilation of their main military force by their hidden "elite" force in Kalad's Phantoms. They're going to look awfully weak and I doubt that any nation on Nalthis would be willing/able to project their power past their planet in this "Cosmere Sea" we have going on. They'd be nice targets if any nation could project its power across the Cosmere Sea.

 

Roshar: Well, as of Words of Radiance, the entire planet is being faced with a potential extinction-level event with the True Desolation and Everstorm. Once the Everstorm circles around to hit the western end of the supercontinent, much of their population might die (not to mention that they'll have to deal with highly aggressive Voidbringers). Their magic users are currently small in number while also lacking in general training, they'll probably be able to prevent the mass extinction of humanity on Roshar but it looks like an uphill battle. Compounded in this is the fact that Roshar is explicitly stated to have a gravitational force of 0.7g (which partially explains bridge warfare on the Shattered Plains and its unusual fauna). I assume that the other planets have similar gravity to Scadrial (which is an Earth analogue) judging by the fact that Worldhoppers don't seem over-encumbered by being there. All these reasons would make projecting power across the Cosmere Sea extremely difficult, if not impossible, while making Roshar essentially a non-factor in any conflict because it's essentially a "hot mess" that nobody would want.

 

Scadrial: I'm a bit biased towards this planet since I love its magic systems but I'll try to be as least biased as possible. Essentially, the Final Empire would probably be the single polity that could project its power across the Cosmere Sea by my estimation. It is, by far, the largest and most unified Shardworld and polity in the premise of the OP. It's led by what is essentially an immortal God-King (The Lord Ruler) who rules a squabbling and fairly magical nobility through the use his terrifying monster priests (Steel Inquisitors) and his general priesthood and, through those nobles, a massive and beaten down peasant base. Magic is common and relatively inexpensive in Scadrial though much of the magic users are illegal peasants that are hunted down internally and often used to make more monster priests. The peasantry can also give rise to a decent professional base. Also, most rebellions by the peasantry have been squashed and, since it's just a Final Empire not necessarily during the events of the first book, they're largely quelled and ineffective. The main problems with Scadrial is that the world is essentially on the slow march to death and agriculture is incredibly difficult due to the ash that falls much of the time.

 

The main question then becomes: would Scadrial even be willing to war? After all, its God-King has been living for about a thousand years and that has to be wearisome.

 

Sel: Sel also has problems with being politically not unified. Assuming that The Emperor's Soul is about 15-20 years after Elantris, things might not be too bad with Teod and the nations on Opelon. Teod has probably recovered from its invasion by the Fjordell Empire and Arelon has probably recovered from its invasion and the end of its disastrous decade spent as a plutocratic, merchant republic pretending to be a feudal kingdom. However, both would be more concerned with the larger and more aggressive Fjordell Empire with its battle priests and monster monks (Dahkor monks) as it's a bigger threat to their existence than trying to project power over a Cosmere Sea. The Rose Empire to the far north appears to be more inwardly focused for the time being and would most likely not have ambitions to spread to another world along the Cosmere Sea. The Fjordell Empire would probably be willing to spread Jaddeth's glory and Shu-Dereth to the other worlds. They're the only real expansionist power on the planet and most likely the only one able and willing to project power onto the other Shardworlds while trying to continue to try undermining Teod, Arelon, and Shu-Korath. They're main problem, though would be keeping up a decent supply line.

 

Threnody: Threnody is seemingly not unified with most polities being fort-type city-states. These city states would probably have a great deal of trouble projecting power across a Cosmere Sea due to the highly limiting nature of the Simple Rules. Their issues with Shades would be a major obstacle to building up a military base to attack the other nations. However, the shades and Simple Rules would largely help dissuade attack by an outside force.

 

Conclusion: Threnody would probably eat up a few expeditionary forces due to its natural dangers. After that they probably would be left alone though Forest Homesteaders might try to immigrate to another world due to the relative ease of living. Roshar is essentially fighting an apocalypse and has problems of its own so it would most likely be ignored by most other worlds due to how much it currently is screwed. Nalthis is politically unstable and most likely unable to project much, if any, power across the Cosmere Sea. However, its political instability would potentially open itself up to invasion/insurrection by the only two polities I feel would be able and willing to project their power, the Fjordell and Final Empires.

 

Yes, with the discovery of lands that aren't screwed up by the Lord Ruler's ascension, he might be willing to invade and subjugate the other lands to preserve humanity. While the Final Empire lacks in military technology, I feel that the ingredients are there for the Lord Ruler to create an amazing army like Prussia did after the 30 Years War. The class system and obedience through the Steel Ministry is definitely there. The humans of the Final Empire also need fewer nutrients than pretty much any other human race and they have canning technology. They'd most likely invade Nalthis and Sel as they're the few worlds that aren't incredibly difficult to live in.

 

Meanwhile, the Fjordell Empire would most likely attempt to spread its religion across the entire Cosmere Sea as Shu-Dereth is a very expansionist religion. They'll probably, at least, keep a minor presence on Roshar and Threnody while actively attempting to convert the Nalthians and Selish. Scadrial would be harder as their god is an actual sliver, with real power (that super Allomancy the Lord Ruler gave himself on top of his native Feruchemy)... insane amounts of power. They'll probably have to contend with whatever Steel Inquisitors and forces the Lord Ruler leaves at home to keep things sane. The Fjordell Empire, however, would probably have supply problems as I doubt they have something as amazing as canned food and their best way of transporting stuff would involve killing people off with their Dahkor priests. While people are always making more people, it takes about a dozen years to two decades for them to become wholly useful.

 

So, the main fighting would be between the Final Empire and the Fjordell Empire. While I think initial skirmishes would end in favor of Wyrn due to their experience, eventually Scadrial would be able to get its act together due to irregular troops like the koloss, Steel Inquisitors, mistings/mistborn, and kandra giving the human/skaa armies a chance to survive and become experienced. Then Scadrial would be able to at least push the Fjordell Empire out of whatever lands the Final Empire conquers.

Sorry I didn't make this clear earlier. All of the worlds are unified within themselves and working together. There is no Everstorm, Urithiru, or Atium. However, highstorms are allowed. Also, I didn't allow highly invested characters like Susebron or Lord Ruler.

Edited April 14, 2016 by cloudjumper

[amulligan99]

Roshar won't be able to travel by sea very well due to highstorms, the everstorm, and a general lack of seafaring knowledge that i have seen(except for that retard that sailed into a highstorm)

Even though they lack seafaring knowledge they could use a ton of soulcasters and just make a bridge to somewhere else.

[asterion137 he/him]

pretty sure soulcasters can't do that...that's probably HUNDEREDS OF CUBIC MILES of matter where we haven't seen soulcasters do more than small tasks like make food or barracks

[Knight Oblivion]

Sorry I didn't make this clear earlier. All of the worlds are unified within themselves and working together. There is no Everstorm, Urithiru, or Atium. However, highstorms are allowed. Also, I didn't allow highly invested characters like Susebron or Lord Ruler.

 

Oh, so you're just tossing the political realities outside the door and vastly modifying the end state of each world as per their most recent novels, novellas, and short stories. That's significantly less interesting and involves more rampant speculation for the vast number of polities with which we have little to no information on their numbers. The lack of unity for all worlds besides Scadrial's Final Empire was part of the reason I found the prompt so interesting. It stretches disbelief a bit too much to imagine the Derethi or Korathi actually cooperating (since the former wants to see the eradication of the latter) or the Listeners/Voidbringers with the human and not-so-human Rosharans.

 

Also, I took your lack of highly invested characters to mean they're not included in the battles. If you'll notice, I didn't include the Lord Ruler as a factor for Scadrial's military strength. He is necessary, however, for the continued existence of the Final Empire as a polity. Susebron is also important to count as, at least, a leader of Hallandren despite his invested status due to the fact that he seized a more direct control at the end of Warbreaker (part of the point of Lightsong's sacrifice).

 

I feel like I wasted a fair amount of time and effort creating my post now.

[cloudjumper he/him]

Oh, so you're just tossing the political realities outside the door and vastly modifying the end state of each world as per their most recent novels, novellas, and short stories. That's significantly less interesting and involves more rampant speculation for the vast number of polities with which we have little to no information on their numbers. The lack of unity for all worlds besides Scadrial's Final Empire was part of the reason I found the prompt so interesting. It stretches disbelief a bit too much to imagine the Derethi or Korathi actually cooperating (since the former wants to see the eradication of the latter) or the Listeners/Voidbringers with the human and not-so-human Rosharans.

 

Also, I took your lack of highly invested characters to mean they're not included in the battles. If you'll notice, I didn't include the Lord Ruler as a factor for Scadrial's military strength. He is necessary, however, for the continued existence of the Final Empire as a polity. Susebron is also important to count as, at least, a leader of Hallandren despite his invested status due to the fact that he seized a more direct control at the end of Warbreaker (part of the point of Lightsong's sacrifice).

 

I feel like I wasted a fair amount of time and effort creating my post now.

That makes sense. I didn't consider it that way. I'm not going to force unity, but I'm going to remove highstorms because it hampers travel in and out of Roshar too much. Stormlight still replenishes though.

Edited April 14, 2016 by cloudjumper

[asterion137 he/him]

ya that edit would have made it like the other 2 similar threads

[Espella]

Even without the Everstorm Roshar might still be screwed since (based on what I understand of the Shadesmar map, which might not be that accurate) they are more or less in the middle of all the other worlds in the Cognitive Realm, so lots of people would probably be going after them to get easier transport to other Shardworlds (unless it's not really an issue to walk around them? Not quite clear on how it all works).

 

On that note, Sel's cognitive realm has been said to be extremely dangerous, which would probably help on defense unless we move forward to space faring times or there's ways to worldhop without going through the cognitive realm. Sazed trying to block out everyone else (mostly the red force in BoM) from Scadrial might similarly boost their defenses, unless Odium finds a way to use the war to his advantage and take him out.

 

Sel, maybe Roshar (we don't know enough about Cultivation yet), Threnody, and First of the Sun don't have the advantage of shardholders that care about them that Nalthis and Scadrial have, so that could make a big difference if shardholders start getting involved. Unless we're ignoring shardholders for being too invested.