Voidus Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 And another relatively small amount was enough to make Ruin- Marsh flee from her in HoA. Still, hard call. If Marsh has speed stored up and uses it to KO Vasher and take Nightblood, would his Feruchemy fuel using it? What's its rate of non-Endowment Investiture use? Do the other combatants need a connection to Honor/Roshar to use the Honorblade when they kill Szeth? I don't know that anyone other than Vin or possibly Raoden would have a good shot at successfully using Nightblood. The Honorblade is an interesting one though.
Beaker Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Here are some questions that I feel are most vital: Do they get to bring items? (metal vials, etc) Do connection with spren count as relying on another entity or does the alteration of their spiritual web/identity and subsequent bond with the spren make them "inseparable"? Do the mists count as relying on a separate entity? (My problem with including the mists is because to me that implies relying on a completely separate being/entity in the fight. If they do not count as a separate entity I also think Vin can't just "bring along" the mists as it were if this is a "neutral location where everyone's magic works fully)
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Personally I think that Vin, if born on Roshar, would have been a Windrunner, but I suppose that doesn't really matter as the Blade doesn't rely on an Honorspren Nahel Bond Here are some questions that I feel are most vital: Do they get to bring items? (metal vials, etc) Do connection with spren count as relying on another entity or does the alteration of their spiritual web/identity and subsequent bond with the spren make them "inseparable"? Do the mists count as relying on a separate entity? (My problem with including the mists is because to me that implies relying on a completely separate being/entity in the fight. If they do not count as a separate entity I also think Vin can't just "bring along" the mists as it were if this is a "neutral location where everyone's magic works fully) I'd say items have tp be brought along, unless you want unarmed combat, and the items we have mentioned are all an integral part of the characters' "kits". Ditto all have access to all magic systems they would usually have access to. Bonds with Spren included. The mists aren't an entity but whilst I can see a location in which all the magics worked, I think the fight would have t literally be on Scadrial to use the mists Edited April 7, 2016 by IndigoAjah
Voidus Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Personally I think that Vin, if born on Roshar, would have been a Windrunner, but I suppose that doesn't really matter as the Blade doesn't rely on an Honorspren Nahel Bond I'd say items have tp be brought along, unless you want unarmed combat, and the items we have mentioned are all an integral part of the characters' "kits". Ditto all have access to all magic systems they would usually have access to. Bonds with Spren included. The mists aren't an entity but whilst I can see a location in which all the magics worked, I think the fight would have t literally be on Scadrial to use the mists Well Dilaf would have to be on Sel for his to work, and Raoden would have to be in a very specific part of Sel for his.
Beaker Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Personally I think that Vin, if born on Roshar, would have been a Windrunner, but I suppose that doesn't really matter as the Blade doesn't rely on an Honorspren Nahel Bond I'd say items have tp be brought along, unless you want unarmed combat, and the items we have mentioned are all an integral part of the characters' "kits". Ditto all have access to all magic systems they would usually have access to. Bonds with Spren included. The mists aren't an entity but whilst I can see a location in which all the magics worked, I think the fight would have t literally be on Scadrial to use the mists The mists arent an entity on their own but are they not part of an entity? Also a part that cant be removed from the entity in question? Like I feel like bringing the mists along is akin to beating everyone to death with gods leg haha. Edited April 7, 2016 by Beaker
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 The mists arent an entity on their own but are they not part of an entity? Also a part that cant be removed from the entity in question? Like I feel like bringing the mists along is akin to beating everyone to death with gods leg haha. Don't know about that, Vin lent Mist power to Elend (though a limited amount) in HoA when she was Preservation. Also, if Saze is in the fight and not Harmony, it's very up in the air what is happening with that Shard As for the Sel problem, doesn't SH imply that they might be able to move the Dor or something?
Voidus Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 The mists arent an entity on their own but are they not part of an entity? Also a part that cant be removed from the entity in question? Like I feel like bringing the mists along is akin to beating everyone to death with gods leg haha. Well if you say that then Marsh can't have Atium since it's part of Ruin, so he ages into a skeleton instantly Don't know about that, Vin lent Mist power to Elend (though a limited amount) in HoA when she was Preservation. Also, if Saze is in the fight and not Harmony, it's very up in the air what is happening with that Shard As for the Sel problem, doesn't SH imply that they might be able to move the Dor or something? Not as far as I noticed, it seems like they were using some other form of Investiture to power their Elantrianism.
Beaker Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Don't know about that, Vin lent Mist power to Elend (though a limited amount) in HoA when she was Preservation. Also, if Saze is in the fight and not Harmony, it's very up in the air what is happening with that Shard I feel like the Vin lending thing kind of proves my point. Mists and its power are dependent on the shard being present (but can be directed by a vessel) Sure, but in this hypothetical aren't we sort of removing the characters from their context thereby removing the direct influence of shards and just including their magical effects? Well if you say that then Marsh can't have Atium since it's part of Ruin, so he ages into a skeleton instantly This is what I'm getting at though. Metal (even Lerasium/Atium) can be carried around and are not "attached" as it were. It seems to me that the presence of the mists requires the presence of the shard itself. Its not something that can be detached from the shard carried to say Roshar, the metal can be. Also, I love this place. Haha. I have no one in RL who I can bounce ideas off of. Thanks guys. Edited April 7, 2016 by Beaker
Pathfinder Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 I feel like the Vin lending thing kind of proves my point. Mists and its power are dependent on the shard being present (but can be directed by a vessel) Sure, but in this hypothetical aren't we sort of removing the characters from their context thereby removing the direct influence of shards and just including their magical effects? This is what I'm getting at though. Metal (even Lerasium/Atium) can be carried around and are not "attached" as it were. It seems to me that the presence of the mists requires the presence of the shard itself. Its not something that can be detached from the shard carried to say Roshar, the metal can be. Also, I love this place. Haha. I have no one in RL who I can bounce ideas off of. Thanks guys. The metals are just a gateway to preservation. It has the advantage that that means you can tap preservation anywhere meanwhile some of the other magics need hacks to access it, but it is still reaching out to the shard.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Vin has been Preservation, as a Sliver who knows what she can do?
Beaker Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Vin has been Preservation, as a Sliver who knows what she can do? Correct me if im wrong but she wasnt a sliver, she was actually a vessel.
Pathfinder Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Correct me if im wrong but she wasnt a sliver, she was actually a vessel. If I recall correctly she was a sliver when she touched the well and gave away the power, and then became a vessel when she took it up later. So I believe she was both.
Beaker Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 If I recall correctly she was a sliver when she touched the well and gave away the power, and then became a vessel when she took it up later. So I believe she was both. I stand corrected, though im not sure she gained (much) power from that as she gave the power up.
Pathfinder Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 I stand corrected, though im not sure she gained (much) power from that as she gave the power up. If I recall correctly (so if someone could provide the WoB or pertinent quote), being a sliver is like filling a balloon to nearly bursting, and then emptying it. You are empty of the power, but you are still expanded from the experience.
Beaker Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 If I recall correctly (so if someone could provide the WoB or pertinent quote), being a sliver is like filling a balloon to nearly bursting, and then emptying it. You are empty of the power, but you are still expanded from the experience. Your "soul" is so expanded but as far as I can tell you don't gain any specific power unless, like the lord ruler, you take that power and use it to give yourself access to that power.
Pathfinder Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Your "soul" is so expanded but as far as I can tell you don't gain any specific power unless, like the lord ruler, you take that power and use it to give yourself access to that power. That description I provided about the balloon is literally the example Brandon gave. I wasn't arguing power. I was stating regarding terms and why she would be considered a sliver first and then a vessel. By touching a shard, it expands you and changes you even when you give it up. Which is why you are still considered a sliver after giving it up. By taking it up and keeping it, you become a vessel. Not arguing power levels, just terms.
Beaker Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 That description I provided about the balloon is literally the example Brandon gave. I wasn't arguing power. I was stating regarding terms and why she would be considered a sliver first and then a vessel. By touching a shard, it expands you and changes you even when you give it up. Which is why you are still considered a sliver after giving it up. By taking it up and keeping it, you become a vessel. Not arguing power levels, just terms. Yup, was just trying to bring it back to the original discussion again I guess. Your terminology is correct.
Pathfinder Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Yup, was just trying to bring it back to the original discussion again I guess. Your terminology is correct. Ah, gotcha. Sorry then, at this point I will then shut up lol.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Logically would she be able to access the essence of Preservation though? As a previous Vessel/Sliver depending when this is? And thus channel the mists as she has an inherent link now? Anyway, still think it's the killer instinct that will shape the winner rather than the power. The power is all very debatable depending on the exact set up and we haven't really seen much inter-investiture interaction to judge how people from different worlds match up. The willingness and innate skill to kill would be more consistent, as would the pragmatism of certain characters.
CaptainRyan he/him Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Personally, I think the mists count as part of Preservation as opposed to part of Vin and therefore should not be included as part of her "kit". If Vasher has Nightblood then I think he would come out as the winner. This is mainly a "gut" feeling as I think Nightblood has power far beyond what we have been shown and that it (he?) would not allow Vasher to be killed. If my assumptions about how powerful Nightblood is are wrong then I think Vin/Marsh, assuming A Atium for both or the ability to compound steel for Marsh, would be the last two standing and I imagine Marsh has the advantage but Vin did defeat an atium burning Mistborn w/o atium herself so I would never count her completely out. Szeth and Raoden are the wild cards in my mind - Szeth is probably outmatched by Vin/Marsh/Nightblood but is still a strong contender and Raoden, depending on how much time he has/what Aons he has up his sleeve could possibly pull off a surprise upset. All of the other contenders are either far too weak (Dilaf, MeLaan, Dalinar) or too inexperienced at killing (Lift, Sazed) to win.
Argel he/him Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 How good is Szeth? So far he's either fought non-magic users not familiar with fighting someone with his abilities, and then Kaladin, who for the most part has the same powers (e.g. lashings). In the Arena, everyone is a magic user, and some have already had to adapt on the fly to a new power being used against them. I'm having a hard time seeing him as a serious threat. Yeah, probably e.g. more of a threat than Dalinar, but not e.g. Vasher or even Vin, who has been shown to have great intuition when pressed.
CaptainRyan he/him Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 How good is Szeth? So far he's either fought non-magic users not familiar with fighting someone with his abilities, and then Kaladin, who for the most part has the same powers (e.g. lashings). In the Arena, everyone is a magic user, and some have already had to adapt on the fly to a new power being used against them. I'm having a hard time seeing him as a serious threat. Yeah, probably e.g. more of a threat than Dalinar, but not e.g. Vasher or even Vin, who has been shown to have great intuition when pressed. While we do not know for sure how quick Szeth is to adapt to new magic systems we have seen him make creative, destructive and powerful uses of his abilities. He does not simply know how to swing his Honorblade (though he is both very skilled and has stormlight speed/strength enhancements) but he also knows how to fight without his Honorblade and can defeat dozens of skilled opponents by using the lashings and his surroundings. My personal opinion is that Szeth would be fairly quick to adapt to new enemies but I recognize this is merely speculation on my part. I believe he is a powerful contender but, most likely, would be unable to match Vin/Marsh/Vasher+Nightblood imo.
Svordish Scientist he/him Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Szeth is also adept at Shin martial arts.
asterion137 he/him Posted April 8, 2016 Posted April 8, 2016 marsh because steel compounding will let him eliminate the biggest threats before they can react
Voidus Posted April 8, 2016 Posted April 8, 2016 I feel like the Vin lending thing kind of proves my point. Mists and its power are dependent on the shard being present (but can be directed by a vessel) Sure, but in this hypothetical aren't we sort of removing the characters from their context thereby removing the direct influence of shards and just including their magical effects? This is what I'm getting at though. Metal (even Lerasium/Atium) can be carried around and are not "attached" as it were. It seems to me that the presence of the mists requires the presence of the shard itself. Its not something that can be detached from the shard carried to say Roshar, the metal can be. Also, I love this place. Haha. I have no one in RL who I can bounce ideas off of. Thanks guys. The mists essentially are Lerasium, just in a different state.
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