Sadeas's legacy

[Pathfinder]

I dunno, on one hand i like the theory on the other hand I am not so sure. First, just because Ialai could bear children, doesn't mean they were doing the horizontal mambo that a child could result from it. Sadeas admitted to himself that Ialai was not physically attractive to him, and same him to her. Theirs was a mutual business/partnership where they respected each others strengths. True they are fond of each other, and would certainly seek to protect and avenge each other, but not necessarily intimate (other than knowing the spot Ialai likes scratched). Also the quote posted is not the full quote/scene. Sadeas had just watched one of his allies leaving with Dalinar. Everyone in his entourage was uncomfortable and nervous. Perhaps it could be Ialai beginning to worry or think that they were in fact wrong. That they are dinosaurs of an age that might very well make them extinct due to sticking their heads in the sand for so long. Again, I like the theory, and is ripe for plot development but I am not yet convinced. 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

 

 

 

 

This is a fun one as the majority of people assume Rosharian humans are older than their book age due to year length thing-y... If this theory is real, then it makes the idea of Ialai being pregnant even less plausible, not more 

 

 

 

 

Only if they are physiologically similar enough! They are physically less identifiably human than the people of Scadrial, for example

[maxal she/her]

Only if they are physiologically similar enough! They are physically less identifiably human than the people of Scadrial, for example

 

Oh, I do agree with you, but this argument has been used against myself so often, I couldn't help to throw it back   I personally do not think Rosharian physically agree with Earth humans of the same age, if we take the year length into consideration.

 

This being said, it is practically impossible to tell when the age bearing age of women ends, but it is a fair assumption to think Ialai has passed this threshold.

[baby he/him]

Have we ever gotten a description of Ialai that called her old? I got the impression that we was kinda ugly, but no age indicators. Since Sadeas was 51 (birth 1123, death 1174) and most people agree that woman cease being able to have babies around their mid-40s, it's fairly reasonable that she's in her late thirties or early fourties. It's not that far of a stretch, actually, considering their relative time period. 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Onceler

[Eki]

Didn't Ialai show up in one of the excerpts from Dalinar's flashbacks Brandon has been reading on tours? I may be misremembering...

[Sunbird she/her]

Didn't Ialai show up in one of the excerpts from Dalinar's flashbacks Brandon has been reading on tours? I may be misremembering...

 

I think you are right. The one where Dalinar goes out into the highstorm looking for his knife?

[Eki]

I think you are right. The one where Dalinar goes out into the highstorm looking for his knife?

That's the one. Dalinar has to be fairly young in that scene. Maybe a bit over 20 or so?

[Sunbird she/her]

That's the one. Dalinar has to be fairly young in that scene. Maybe a bit over 20 or so?

 

That sounds about right. I seem to remember Brandon saying that Dalinar's flashbacks are from 30 years before the beginning of WoK, if he was 20 in the flashbacks, that puts him at about 50 in the present. If Ialai was also in the flashback (and I think she was), she might have been anywhere from 15 to 20 years old at that point, which would put her at age 45-50 in the present. If we're assuming Rosharian women's childbearing abilities are similar to those of Earth women, it would be a stretch for her to conceive at that age. My mom's 43 and is already experiencing menopause.

[Oudeis he/him]

Since Sadeas was 51 (birth 1123, death 1174) and most people agree that woman cease being able to have babies around their mid-40s,

 

Where did we learn his birth year from?

 

I do not concur that Ialai must be 100% infertile if she's mid-forty. Maybe google it? While it becomes more rare, and live births even rarer, it's not even unlikely for a woman that age to become pregnant. We have very little knowledge as to how contraceptive technology works on Roshar (though I assume Navani has some sort of fabrial. And... possibly other, tangentially related ones, now I think about it...) but as a woman starts going into menopause, a number of factors might make conception more likely. Please note that I'm saying the opposite of ceteris parabis; I'm not saying a woman is biologically more fertile. I'm saying that because her fertility might drop off, she might think she's safe and take fewer precautions, ironically increasing the chances of actual conception. Even if she's taking precautions, some forms of prophylactic are dependent upon the regularity of the cycle; in menopause, when it becomes less predictable, mistakes can become far more common. In fact, the very onset of menopause, when fertility has yet to significantly decline but the cycle has already grown irregular, might end up being the most likely time for an unexpected blessing. Y'know, such as the age people seem to be thinking Ialai might be exactly in range of.

[maxal she/her]

Fertility clinics will not let you use your own ovaries if you are past 43 years of age as the chances they would yield into a viable offspring are extremely low. Pass the age of 45, many will simply not see you as, again, the chances of producing a live child are extremely low. While there are exceptions, the fact Ialai never got pregnant (as far as we know) before makes it more implausible. Has it stands, it makes little sense to me she would magically fall pregnant on the eve of her menopause when she failed to do so in her best years. It seems extremely likely someone has fertility issues within this union, but...

 

It may not be Ialai...

 

Even if I accept the possibility she may be pregnant, it seems more likely the father isn't Sadeas.

 

Why conceive now and not before? Because the cause of their lack of children isn't her, but him.

[restless he/him]

Fertility clinics will not let you use your own ovaries if you are past 43 years of age as the chances they would yield into a viable offspring are extremely low.

 

/offtopic

Fertility clinics?

A friend of mine has had a newborn healthy daughter yesterday, and his wife is 43 years old and guess what, they didn't use "fertility clinics"

Edited April 11, 2016 by restless

[Pathfinder]

/offtopic

Fertility clinics?

A friend of mine has had a newborn healthy daughter yesterday, and his wife is 43 years old and guess what, they didn't use "fertility clinics"

But it does become more dangerous for the mother and child, with increased occurrences of premature birth. And that is with all our current medical advances. Not impossible, but not optimal. 

[Argel he/him]

Has it been explicitly stated they do not have children? If not, could they be back home minding the princedom (and not getting in the way of scheming)?

[Pathfinder]

Has it been explicitly stated they do not have children? If not, could they be back home minding the princedom (and not getting in the way of scheming)?

To the best of my recollection no, so that could be very true. Though if you have kids, and there is parts of the book from Sadeus's and Lalai's perspective, why wouldn't they mention them even once?

[Argel he/him]

I'm inclined to agree, but the POVs are a bit more limited than some of the others. Though it does never seem to come up, and you'd think any kids they had would be with them. Though if they are too young, maybe they are back home with their nanny, teacher, etc. If they have no love for their children, then maybe the children are just out of sigh, out of mind.

 

Edit: Sadeas talks about him being the one to unite Alethkar. Seems like you would want an heir to maintain your legacy if you were doing that. Of course, if they already have one or more children....

Edited April 11, 2016 by Argel

[maxal she/her]

/offtopic

Fertility clinics?

A friend of mine has had a newborn healthy daughter yesterday, and his wife is 43 years old and guess what, they didn't use "fertility clinics"

 

I never said it was impossible simply uncommon and yes if you are having difficulties conceiving a child, fertility clinics will refuse to use your own ovaries pass the age of 43 because their quality is not good enough to guarantee a decent enough chance of success or at least this is how they are proceeding here. Many parents who wait until their late thirties, early forties do end up in fertility clinics which is not to say you can't get pregnant by natural means pass the age of forty: if you have children before, then yes it can happen, but the risk of is miscarriage is about 50%, if it is not higher. So one out of two pregnancies which starts pass the age of forty ends up in a miscarriage. In your thirties, it is about 20%-30%. 

 

Any doctor will tell you how fertility of both partners decreases dramatically when you reach the age of forty which is why young people are encourage to NOT wait until their reach this threshold to decide they want to start a family because while it may work, there also is a strong chance it won't. One of the reasons often listed as to why more people use fertility clinics now is linked to their age: people wait longer before they start their family, often when their own fertility is too low to conceive naturally. Life sucks but the fertility reaches its peak in the late teens or somewhere in this corner. There are several accurate statistic available on the matter.

 

As far as we know, Sadeas and Ialai never had children. They have been married for several decades which presumed they likely had a fertility issue due to the absence of children. Fertility issue don't usually magically fix themselves and while it is true there are people who's chance to conceive is so small they end up in clinics and yet manage to get pregnant naturally. It sure happened to a colleague of mine: third child was a huge unplanned surprise and they were supposed to be infertile. 

 

My whole point is it is hard enough to get pregnant and carry on the pregnancy to term pass the age of forty, it seems improbable a couple, previously considered infertile, would suddenly, when their fertility is severely impaired due to age, conceive a child.

 

Again it is not impossible, just very very unlikely. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by maxal

[Pathfinder]

So I countered the downvote on your post Maxal, because I feel it is not right to downvote someone just because you disagree with them, and did not see anything offensive in your post. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Argel he/him]

Any thoughts on this one?

 

Though if [their children] are too young, maybe they are back home with their nanny, teacher, etc. If they have no love for their children, then maybe the children are just out of sigh, out of mind.

[Pathfinder]

Although certainly possible, I still feel if you talk about your legacy, or even other people's legacy (Dalinar's for instance), you would reference your own children. Also the Shattered Plains became the new seat for the Alethkar nation. If you want your legacy intact, and build a power base, then you would have your family there with you (just like every other high prince). By their children being there, it would be a calculated risk, but would also allow Sadeas to train his progeny. Allow him to build alliances, and such for when the child comes of age. Also with all his comments on Adolin and Renarin, why wouldn't he dig deeper by comparing them to his own children? He already criticizes how Dalinar wages the war, by comparing him to his own faster bridges. Why not imply that Dalinar is a failure as a father as well to further discredit him? He already calls into question Renarin as useless. I dunno. Again I admit it is very possible, and there is nothing concrete I could present to definitively say no, but it doesn't feel right to me. 

 

edit: oh yeah and Amaram was hanging out back home before he went to the Shattered Plains and there was no mention of Sadeas's offspring there. Nor by Kaladin. Its only ever been mentioned as Sadeas himself with his wife. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Argel he/him]

Were their children out on the Shattered Plains (not counting darkeyes)?

[maxal she/her]

So I countered the downvote on your post Maxal, because I feel it is not right to downvote someone just because you disagree with them, and did not see anything offensive in your post. 

 

Thanks   The mood has been back to downvoting people recently   Each time I bother to write a post, I catch two downvotes for one upvote 

[Pathfinder]

Were their children out on the Shattered Plains (not counting darkeyes)?

I need to check to be certain, but if I recall correctly, Lighteyed officers had their families with them which included wives and children. It was why when Dalinar was betrayed it was so devastating. 

 

Thanks   The mood has been back to downvoting people recently   Each time I bother to write a post, I catch two downvotes for one upvote 

No worries. My personal philosophy is if I feel the post is being offensive I downvote. Otherwise I just respond. 

[Pathfinder]

double post because I found it:

 

Way of Kings page 408-409

Dalinar had also approved most requests for families to be brought to the Shattered Plains. The officers already had their wives of course - a good lighteyes officer was really a team, the man to command and fight, the woman to read, write, engineer and manage camp. 

 

then further down in the description:

 

Regardless, Dalinar had also approved requests by darkeyed common soldiers to bring their families. He even paid half of the cost. When Adolin had asked why, Dalinar had replied that he didn't feel right forbidding them. The warcamps were never attacked anymore, so there was no danger. Adolin suspected his father felt that since he was living in a luxurious near-palace, his men might as well have the comfort of their families. And so it was that children played and ran through the camp.

 

Further down:

 

I'm not certain. The Shattered Plains are now a de factor Alethi province. How will this place appear in a hundred years? Will those rings of barracks become neighborhoods? The outer shops become markets? The hills tot he west become fields for planting?"

 

I could check try to find scenes in Sadeas's camp specifically, but I am also fairly certain Sebarial (i think that is the highprince who built a town on purpose?), definitely had families and children in his camp as well. 

[maxal she/her]

No worries. My personal philosophy is if I feel the post is being offensive I downvote. Otherwise I just respond. 

 

According to the new policy, it also is the site's policy. Posts who aren't offensive and are within topic shouldn't be put into the red. This will forever be a sore tooth for me which will only end in myself spending less and less time posting.

 

Anyway. Sorry to disrupt the conversation. 

[Charlie.x.3000]

Where is this Dalinar flashback, I can't find it. It isn't the one where he gets his Archer friend, right?