A war between Scadrial (era 2) and Roshar

[A Windspren he/him]

I suspect they would probably pick the other one, to be honest, especially if it were the Purelake as some suspect

 

We don't know that you can control where you pop out at, but I agree that they would prefer the Purelake

 

However, the one on the Horneater Peaks is the only confirmed Shardpool, so anything beyond that is speculation, which you have criticized me a lot for.

 

I recall that there was also a theory that Honor's Shardpool was under Urithiru because a quote said that Urithiru was build at the closest place to Honor, but that just gives you the mountain problem again.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Kevino36

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I don't think that anyone answered this objection. They just gave a vague answer involving Medallions, which Elendel currently has no knowledge of.

 

"[page 4 – CaptainRyan] 1) If [the Scadrians] started at the Horneater Peaks, they would be stuck there because of the extreme cold and would likely die without a ton of heat Medallions

 

Any military would scout their invasion point in some manner so the Scadrians would not be surprised by the cold. They would definitely prepare, in some manner, to appear in cold, mountainous heights."

 

 

edit: I just realized that you, Kevino36, were the one who suggested heat medallions as a possible solution. There are plenty of ways for soldiers to fight in the cold without heat medallions. Horneater Peaks would not be a death trap unless, somehow, the Alethi army knew to encamp their full might at the shardpool. Maybe they would do that but then, at worst, the war would be a stalemate.

Edited April 6, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[A Windspren he/him]

Even if the cold didn't kill them, they know literally nothing about the Horneater Peaks, and would likely get lost and die.

 

Rock has also stated that swimming in the Emerald Pools is lethal, although this could be because the Horneaters execute everyone that touches them, which poses a threat to scouts. 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Wherever the other Shardpool is, everything we know leads us to believe there is another one somewhere.

 

 

One way or another, people have made their way from other world's to Roshar (quite a lot of people, including one of Scadrian heritage and at least one Scadrian), so it certainly can be done  and people from Scadrial certainly can Worldhop in some way (though potentially with help from outside). If they did end up at the Peaks, given that the

Southern Scadrians survived their lethal temperature drop with Feruchemy (and can even emulate Allomantic if not also Feruchemical abilities in objects)

and they have invented electricity, they'd be able to survive and could coordinate the arrival of their troops.

 

Let's say against all evidence that it IS too cold, despite the main evidence of that being Rock, who let's face it chats a lot of Chulldung, saying so in a boastful context. There are still definitely people who can survive - if nobody else, Kandra, Pewterarms, possibly Brutes, Brass Ferrings, possibly Bloodmakers. Given time they could set up for the arrival of the others and ease their arrival.

 

 

 

Actually, the biggest (and maybe only) advantage Roshar have that nobody has mentioned yet is the knowledge they might have from the secret societies on their planet, at least some of whom contain Worldhoppers. Although to be fair, it's a guess to assume they'd help Roshar at all

 

 

Even if the cold didn't kill them, they know literally nothing about the Horneater Peaks, and would likely get lost and die.

 

Rock has also stated that swimming in the Emerald Pools is lethal, although this could be because the Horneaters execute everyone that touches them, which poses a threat to scouts. 

 

Given the number of people arriving from other worlds on Roshar, there is demonstrably a non-lethal manner of arriving

Edited April 6, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Even if the cold didn't kill them, they know literally nothing about the Horneater Peaks, and would likely get lost and die.

 

This completely ignores the fact that militaries all throughout history have managed to invade relatively unknown areas successfully. Scouting, reconnaissance, capturing of maps/intel etc. are all methods that have worked for invaders in the past. Not to mention that historical militaries lacked even the weakest of magic systems!

[Voidus]

On the cold: Scadrial does actually have knowledge of the medallions now, but putting that aside they've already shown that they're capable of surviving in the cold mountains, and a Scadrian army has also been shown to be able to navigate a mountain of previously unknown trails. Assuming they didn't just get the knowledge from Horneaters, in exchange for say giving them some Shards. Or food. Or guns. Or just soothing them into loyalty.

[Knight Oblivion]

Having more soldiers helped a lot. I doubt that the Scadrians have an army of 100k, which was relatively small for the Alethi and doesn't count the troops back in Alethkar, not to mention that Jah Keved would probably help defeat an extremely powerful enemy that suddenly appears out of nowhere.

 

Since Scadrial has the ability to worldhop, what prevents a team of Shardbearers and Radiants from taking Scadrial's generals and leaders hostage? Metalborn could probably do the same thing to Roshar's leaders, but there are 10 Highprinces that would probably take command if Elhokar was killed/captured, and they're all trained Shardbearers anyway.

 

First, looking back at the OP shows that the premise is just Alethkar versus Elendel (no mention of city or the Basin though Basin is implied). That removes Jah Keved from the equation and removes one of my questions based upon the premise.

 

Secondly, I'm fairly sure the 100k soldiers in the Shattered Plains (now mostly in Urithiru) were essentially the bulk of the Alethi military might and definitely their better soldiers. Having much of their military away from Alethkar proper is why the kingdom is having increasingly persistent border issues.

 

Thirdly, how many Knights Radiant/Surgebinders would the Alethi even have? This brings the question of when such a war would take place again since putting things squarely in the Mistborn Era 2 Scadrial brings us into pure speculation with Roshar since the Stormlight Archive takes place about a couple decades before it. That's not to mention that there would almost certainly be problems for any Alethi/Rosharan coming to Scadrial due to the 43% higher gravity. Even with the Surgebinders having access to Stormlight to potentially remain functional, the minute innate investiture of Rosharans would most likely not counteract the effects. Heck, Stormlight might not even heal Surgebinders properly because, by their own cognitive idea of themselves, nothing is wrong. They would have some problems similar to, but not to the same degree as, long-term astronauts returning to Earth.¹

 

1. http://www.space.com/21413-hadfield-astronaut-health-return-earth.html

 

EDIT: Fixed some spelling and grammatical issues caused by rushing this post while eating dinner.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Knight Oblivion

[A Windspren he/him]

 

Wherever the other Shardpool is, everything we know leads us to believe there is another one somewhere.

 

 

One way or another, people have made their way from other world's to Roshar (quite a lot of people, including one of Scadrian heritage and at least one Scadrian), so it certainly can be done  and people from Scadrial certainly can Worldhop in some way (though potentially with help from outside). If they did end up at the Peaks, given that the

Southern Scadrians survived their lethal temperature drop with Feruchemy (and can even emulate Allomantic if not also Feruchemical abilities in objects)

and they have invented electricity, they'd be able to survive and could coordinate the arrival of their troops.

 

Let's say against all evidence that it IS too cold, despite the main evidence of that being Rock, who let's face it chats a lot of Chulldung, saying so in a boastful context. There are still definitely people who can survive - if nobody else, Kandra, Pewterarms, possibly Brutes, Brass Ferrings, possibly Bloodmakers. Given time they could set up for the arrival of the others and ease their arrival.

 

 

 

Actually, the biggest (and maybe only) advantage Roshar have that nobody has mentioned yet is the knowledge they might have from the secret societies on their planet, at least some of whom contain Worldhoppers. Although to be fair, it's a guess to assume they'd help Roshar at all

 

 

 

Given the number of people arriving from other worlds on Roshar, there is demonstrably a non-lethal manner of arriving

 

 

They would have to know that it was cold, and scouts would be executed by the Horneaters. Hoid only got away with it because one of the Horneater gods matched his description (which leads me to think that Hoid started that legend), but a scout would not speak their language.

 

You can't just say that Rock my just be boasting, because Sigzil backs up his claim that the Peaks are cold. Oh yeah, they're at the tops of mountains. I'm pretty sure that those are cold.

[Voidus]

On scouting: Tineyes, thugs, coinshots and windwhisperers oh my!

[CaptainRyan he/him]

@Voidus

 

'Grats on 10,000 upvotes and "God Beyond" status Voidus. If I did not already worship the Christian god I would be tempted to worship you!

[IndigoAjah he/him]

They would have to know that it was cold, and scouts would be executed by the Horneaters. Hoid only got away with it because one of the Horneater gods matched his description (which leads me to think that Hoid started that legend), but a scout would not speak their language.

 

You can't just say that Rock my just be boasting, because Sigzil backs up his claim that the Peaks are cold. Oh yeah, they're at the tops of mountains. I'm pretty sure that those are cold.

Hoid is one of many many people that has arrived on Roshar! And Allomancer or Kandra scouts aren't going to easily be executed.

 

Yeah, mountains are cold but survivable by normal humans with layers!

 

It may be too cold to have a civilisation up there without hotsprings but that's not the same as "army arrives. It's so cold they all die". They are very different scenarios! The Horneaters managed to get to the Mountain Peaks and people do travel them. It's demonstrably survivable!

[A Windspren he/him]

This completely ignores the fact that militaries all throughout history have managed to invade relatively unknown areas successfully. Scouting, reconnaissance, capturing of maps/intel etc. are all methods that have worked for invaders in the past. Not to mention that historical militaries lacked even the weakest of magic systems!

 

I doubt that they started at the top of a mountain while slowly freezing to death.

 

First, looking back at the OP shows that the premise is just Alethkar versus Elendel (no mention of city or the Basin though Basin is implied). That removes Jah Keved from the equation and removes one of my questions based upon the premise.

 

Secondly, I'm fairly sure the 100k soldiers in the Shattered Plains (now mostly in Urithiru) were essentially the bulk of the Alethi military might and definitely their better soldiers. Having much of their military away from Alethkar proper is why the kingdom is having increasingly persistent border issues.

 

Thirdly, how many Knights Radiant/Surgebinders would the Alethi even have? This brings the question of when such a war would take place again since putting things squarely in the Mistborn Era 2 Scadrial brings us into pure speculation with Roshar since the Stormlight Archive takes place about a couple decades before it. That's not to mention that there would almost certainly be problems for any Alethi/Rosharan coming to Scadrial due to the 43% higher gravity. Even with the Surgebinders having access to Stormlight to potentially remain functional, the minute innate investiture of Rosharans would most likely not counteract the effects. Heck, Stormlight might not even heal Surgebinders properly because, by their own cognitive idea of themselves, nothing is wrong. They would have some problems similar to but not to the same degree as long-term astronauts do.¹

 

1. http://www.space.com/21413-hadfield-astronaut-health-return-earth.html

 

I would assume that he meant the city, because of the situation in the Basin.

 

The border issues were caused because the highprinces' armies in Alethkar were constantly trying to take land from each other, forcing them to build up more armies there. Amaram's force alone contained several thousand soldiers, and that's just one section in Sadeas's princedom.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

At this point, I think I am going to take a break from this thread. I feel like the relevant portions of the discussion have been hit on and, at this point, we are just repeating things to each other. Perhaps one day Brandon will look on this thread, shake his head in confusion at how much time people spend on his made up fantasy worlds, and then give us a one word answer: Shshshshsh.

[Voidus]

I doubt that they started at the top of a mountain while slowly freezing to death.

 

 

I would assume that he meant the city, because of the situation in the Basin.

 

The border issues were caused because the highprinces' armies in Alethkar were constantly trying to take land from each other, forcing them to build up more armies there. Amaram's force alone contained several thousand soldiers, and that's just one section in Sadeas's princedom.

Again, there's little to no chance that they'd be freezing to death. Scouts would likely be metalborn of some kind, at least some of whom could probably change their connection and speak to the Horneaters, and random people appearing from the pool displaying magic powers would probably also be heralded as gods even without demonstrating their technological superiority. And if they had to they can just kill the Horneaters who attack them...

[A Windspren he/him]

Hoid is one of many many people that has arrived on Roshar! And Allomancer or Kandra scouts aren't going to easily be executed.

 

Yeah, mountains are cold but survivable by normal humans with layers!

 

It may be too cold to have a civilisation up there without hotsprings but that's not the same as "army arrives. It's so cold they all die". They are very different scenarios! The Horneaters managed to get to the Mountain Peaks and people do travel them. It's demonstrably survivable!

 

Sizgil said that if someone strayed too far from the hot springs, they would freeze to death. The Horneaters probably had help from spren in getting to the mountains.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

I doubt that they started at the top of a mountain while slowly freezing to death.

 

 

I would assume that he meant the city, because of the situation in the Basin.

 

The border issues were caused because the highprinces' armies in Alethkar were constantly trying to take land from each other, forcing them to build up more armies there. Amaram's force alone contained several thousand soldiers, and that's just one section in Sadeas's princedom.

So say that the Alethi army is 20% of their military might (doubtful for me, but ok). 500,000 troops is a lot. 

 

Elendel has, we have estimated, 160,000 Allomancers of some sort and could put out a sizeable conscripted army to back it up. Let's just keep the back up to a minimum needed to help travel difficulties. Say we field 80,000 Allomancers, and the same again in armed back up. Outnumbered 3 to 1 but in tech and firepower, historically (even without magic) the smaller force is going to win

[Knight Oblivion]

Elendel's people (at least the North) have a great hatred towards slavery, due to TLR's oppression, and many religious figures fighting slavery and oppression.

 

 

I would assume that he meant the city, because of the situation in the Basin.

 

The border issues were caused because the highprinces' armies in Alethkar were constantly trying to take land from each other, forcing them to build up more armies there. Amaram's force alone contained several thousand soldiers, and that's just one section in Sadeas's princedom.

 

Going by the section of the OP I quoted above, it seems the topic is the entirety of the Elendel Basin (assuming Bowiespoon accidentally used Elendel instead of Scadrial since the Basin's geography isn't really described by a dichotomy between north and south nor is the City of Elendel).

As for the border issues, there are definitely some outside border issues with Jah Keved and, if I recall correctly, some of the Reshii. It's not just the highlords squabbling with each other internally (potentially for their Highprince's benefit). Which actually brings up the issue that the Alethi army isn't really a unified army but a loose coalition between 10 smaller armies which often work against each other. There would most likely be some infighting and betrayals within the Alethi forces.

 

EDIT: Forgot more words. Stupid exhaustion.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Knight Oblivion

[A Windspren he/him]

Again, there's little to no chance that they'd be freezing to death. Scouts would likely be metalborn of some kind, at least some of whom could probably change their connection and speak to the Horneaters, and random people appearing from the pool displaying magic powers would probably also be heralded as gods even without demonstrating their technological superiority. And if they had to they can just kill the Horneaters who attack them...

 

The Horneaters might just as easily assume that they were from the bad part of their mythology. A random person with minor magical abilities that appears out of nowhere, and who has no backstory in mytholody? Sounds like a demon!

 

I should also mention that few of the Allomantic or Feruchemic abilities are very spectacular, in terms of godlike powers. There would be little reason for a Metalborn to use the powers that can be seen by observers unless they are attacking Horneaters, which would just cause the group that controls the land around the Shardpool to pick off soldiers emerging from it one by one. Once the Alethi heard about this, they would offer "help" to the Horneaters and send a few Shardbearers and a bunch of archers to help them kill the soldiers as they swam out of the pool.

 

Also, emerging from a pool of water is not good for guns...

[A Windspren he/him]

Going by the section of the OP I quoted above, it seems the topic is the entirety of the Elendel Basin (assuming Bowiespoon accidentally used Elendel instead of Scadrial since the Basin's geography isn't really described by a dichotomy between north and south nor is the City of Elendel).

As for the border issues, there are definitely some outside border issues with Jah Keved and, if I recall correctly, some of the Reshii. It's not just the highlords squabbling with internally (potentially for their Highprince's benefit). Which actually brings the issue that the Alethi army isn't really a unified army but loose coalition between 10 smaller armies which often work against each other. There would most likely be some infighting and betrayals within Alethi forces.

 

A common enemy united the highprinces. The Parshendi weren't very threatening to the Alethi, which is why there were border squabbles back at home, but the Scadrians would be seriously threatening, which would force the Alethi to unite even more.

[Knight Oblivion]

A common enemy united the highprinces. The Parshendi weren't very threatening to the Alethi, which is why there were border squabbles back at home, but the Scadrians would be seriously threatening, which would force the Alethi to unite even more.

 

Assuming all the Highprinces would believe in the threat or wouldn't try to strike a deal with them in return for more power. It would be especially problematic if Dalinar or Elhokar try to get them to fight together.

[Voidus]

The Horneaters might just as easily assume that they were from the bad part of their mythology. A random person with minor magical abilities that appears out of nowhere, and who has no backstory in mytholody? Sounds like a demon!

 

I should also mention that few of the Allomantic or Feruchemic abilities are very spectacular, in terms of godlike powers. There would be little reason for a Metalborn to use the powers that can be seen by observers unless they are attacking Horneaters, which would just cause the group that controls the land around the Shardpool to pick off soldiers emerging from it one by one. Once the Alethi heard about this, they would offer "help" to the Horneaters and send a few Shardbearers and a bunch of archers to help them kill the soldiers as they swam out of the pool.

 

Also, emerging from a pool of water is not good for guns...

And most peoples response to seeing a demon with magic powers is to run straight towards it? Good way to get yourself killed.

ANd they would almost certainly be attacking the horneaters since they'd be getting attacked, the Horneaters would then realize their magic and at the least fall back to regroup. The Alethi are highly unlikely to either believe or offer to help Horneaters, let alone devote Sharbearers to it.

Emerging from a Shardpool has completely unknown effects on guns but I assume that if Scadrians are worldhopping then they're going to know they'll come out of a Shardpool and take precautions. Even without guns though, magic still wins.

[A Windspren he/him]

At this point, I think I am going to take a break from this thread. I feel like the relevant portions of the discussion have been hit on and, at this point, we are just repeating things to each other. Perhaps one day Brandon will look on this thread, shake his head in confusion at how much time people spend on his made up fantasy worlds, and then give us a one word answer: Shshshshsh.

Oops, I accidently downvoted this. Why are the arrows so close together??? Someone please upvote that!

 

 

Assuming all the Highprinces would believe in the threat or wouldn't try to strike a deal with them in return for more power. It would be especially problematic if Dalinar or Elhokar try to get them to fight together.

 

We're also assuming that the people of Elendel wouldn't revolt because of a draft to invade another planet, which sounds pretty fanciful to an ordinary person. If that happened on Earth, I would be wondering what my leader was smoking.

[A Windspren he/him]

And most peoples response to seeing a demon with magic powers is to run straight towards it? Good way to get yourself killed.

ANd they would almost certainly be attacking the horneaters since they'd be getting attacked, the Horneaters would then realize their magic and at the least fall back to regroup. The Alethi are highly unlikely to either believe or offer to help Horneaters, let alone devote Sharbearers to it.

Emerging from a Shardpool has completely unknown effects on guns but I assume that if Scadrians are worldhopping then they're going to know they'll come out of a Shardpool and take precautions. Even without guns though, magic still wins.

 

According to Rock, there is a layer of mineral water on the surface of the Shardpool, which is especially corrosive.

[Voidus]

According to Rock, there is a layer of mineral water on the surface of the Shardpool, which is especially corrosive.

He probably thinks that because things that enter have a habit of vanishing like they do in other Shardpools.

[A Windspren he/him]

He probably thinks that because things that enter have a habit of vanishing like they do in other Shardpools.

 

How does having water on the surface correspond to that? He doesn't mention corrosive water, just that there is mineral water on the surface. Mineral water is corrosive, but that doesn't mean that everything with mineral water in it is a Shardpool.