Disappointed with Bands of Mourning, Help!

[Luciellav]

Upvote for you, OP, for the questions you raised. I strongly disagree with the overall point you're trying to make - I don't think they are plot holes or evidences of poor planning. However, the first three points you make are questions that I feel engaged readers are supposed to come away with. Comparing BoM to the past books and saying, "Hey, some of the things as presented in this book don't make much sense!" Which really has to do with where this book fits in with the larger Mistborn saga as a whole.

 

I agree with you. You make really good points.

 

I would guess my sin is basically being a distrustful casual fan.

To me all those were arbitrary plot points to extend a story that has nothing more to give, or I would say -an after thought- for milking the golden cow. I seriously don't know if Mistborn is Brandon Sanderson's flag ship, but we all know how the entertainment industry tends to milk dry their best cows. (George RR Martin, JK Rowling and so many movie sequels like Mission impossible, Die Hard, Rocky, Fast & Furious, etc.. -I'm looking at you- ). So I guess I'm biased about it, I don't have the whole picture like the fandom who has followed the sagas since published, so sadly my first thoughts are distrusting the author's intentions when sudden plot changes arise.

[Landis963]

I seriously don't know if Mistborn is Brandon Sanderson's flag ship.

 

It essentially is Sanderson's flagship series, but Wax and Wayne (otherwise known as Era 2) has the advantage over most post-story milkings in that it (specifically, Alloy of Law) was an idea that popped into our esteemed author's head before he finished the story.  

 

EDIT: Again, you probably didn't know that he'd been planning on more Mistborn before Alloy of Law was even a thing, let alone the rest of Era 2, so I can see the confusion.  

Edited March 16, 2016 by Landis963

[Kingsdaughter613]

It's also worth pointing out that a trilogy of trilogies is an interesting method. Essentially, the books can be looked at in several ways. The first book in most individual trilogies can often stand alone but introduces us to the world. The second builds on the first and the third concludes. They can also be looked at as one 'big' trilogy. Era 1 then is our introduction to the world and stands utterly alone. Era 2 can stand alone but builds on Era 1 with its own plot. Era 3 concludes the trilogy, expanding even further and wrapping everything up. However, as each series is a full trilogy they can each stand alone to an extent.

So what are Mistborn Adventures? Essentially, the midquel that most authors would write BETWEEN writing Era 2 and 3. Brandon being Brandon, this got written first. (He is the man who wrote the sequel to SOS before writing SOS.) If we assume, and it isn't much of a stretch, that South Scadrians were always going to be part of Era2 and realize that Era 2 would usually be written prior to the midquel it actually makes a lot of sense why their appearance here feels out of left field. They were supposed to be explained in the series Brandon has not gotten around to writing yet!

[king of nowhere]

 

 

I would guess my sin is basically being a distrustful casual fan.

 we all know how the entertainment industry tends to milk dry their best cows. (George RR Martin, JK Rowling and so many movie sequels like Mission impossible, Die Hard, Rocky, Fast & Furious, etc.. -I'm looking at you- ). So I guess I'm biased about it, I don't have the whole picture like the fandom who has followed the sagas since published, so sadly my first thoughts are distrusting the author's intentions when sudden plot changes arise.

I understand that because I am the same. I'm always very distrustful of sequels and spiinoffs, always like "oh, please, do we really need another one of those?" I'm especially annoyed by how many franchises carefully avoid giving satisfying plot resolutions because they want to do more sequels; can't they just give this story a good end and let it stand as a work of art? In fact, if I wasn't hanging on this forum, knowing brandon's long term plans, I'd probably have felt exactly like you.

It's really curious, actually; if a story is made, and then random elements are added, it's a bad thing because the meddling executives are trying to milk their golden cow. But! If those extra elements and sequels were already in the author's mind when he started it all, then it's perfectly fine. A really subtle distinction, and one that hinges on knowing what's on the mind of the author, and is open to interpretations. It also has a lot to do with trust.

But the distinction is important nonetheless.

See, if an author has a big story in mind, then he is telling a story one bit at a time; one long story that needs to be broken in chapters, but nonetheless I know that there is a sense of direction, that the plot makes sense and is going somewhere, even if i may not see it now, and that there will be a satisfying ending eventually. In fact, I know the story is pointed towards that ending, and it will be worth the wait.

On the other hand, if the authors are just leaving the story open to sell more sequels, it means there is no direction, and all that is being done is adding new plot threads that will then need a mmeaningful resolution. Bringing more and more plot threads without a good idea on how to resolve them means thatany ending - if they ever decide to make one - is going to feel forced, incomplete, unsatisfying.

 

The good thing is, brandon already has the cosmere plotted out; it's around 60 books if i remember correctly. I don't have to worry that he's just leading us to nowhere as long as we pay the tiket.

[Kingsdaughter613]

To be fair, there is a third possibility when authors add random plot elements. Sometimes you start writing and then you get this great idea you have to put in. Or you realize that character X would be doing Y and add that. Then, before you know it, you've lost all control of your story which gets progressively longer and more meandering as you write it. I feel this what happened to WoT for a while, and I feel like it's happening to GRRM as well. Less about milking a cash cow, and more about the author losing control of his story.

That's why Brandon's method works so well; when he gets this awesome new idea he writes a NEW story, or novela, or book, or SERIES, instead of forcing it into his current book and bogging down the narrative.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Kingsdaughter613

[Luciellav]

EDIT: Again, you probably didn't know that he'd been planning on more Mistborn before Alloy of Law was even a thing, let alone the rest of Era 2, so I can see the confusion.  

 

Indeed I had no idea. I'm a recent fan since I almost read all 6 books one after the other (with a little break between shadows of self and bands of mourning. But! I read Elantris while waiting for Bands of Mouring)

 

Yet I'm happy to know that now.

 

 

So what are Mistborn Adventures? Essentially, the midquel that most authors would write BETWEEN writing Era 2 and 3. Brandon being Brandon, this got written first. (He is the man who wrote the sequel to SOS before writing SOS.) If we assume, and it isn't much of a stretch, that South Scadrians were always going to be part of Era2 and realize that Era 2 would usually be written prior to the midquel it actually makes a lot of sense why their appearance here feels out of left field. They were supposed to be explained in the series Brandon has not gotten around to writing yet!

 

 I would say that order it's a bit counteractive reader experience wise. Then again it's Brandon's stories and he can do with them whatever he likes hehe. 

 

 

 

See, if an author has a big story in mind, then he is telling a story one bit at a time; one long story that needs to be broken in chapters, but nonetheless I know that there is a sense of direction, that the plot makes sense and is going somewhere, even if i may not see it now, and that there will be a satisfying ending eventually. In fact, I know the story is pointed towards that ending, and it will be worth the wait.

On the other hand, if the authors are just leaving the story open to sell more sequels, it means there is no direction, and all that is being done is adding new plot threads that will then need a mmeaningful resolution. Bringing more and more plot threads without a good idea on how to resolve them means thatany ending - if they ever decide to make one - is going to feel forced, incomplete, unsatisfying.

 

The good thing is, brandon already has the cosmere plotted out; it's around 60 books if i remember correctly. I don't have to worry that he's just leading us to nowhere as long as we pay the tiket.

 

You have to agree with me that now days is extremely hard to come by an author like Brandon. What populates our entertainment is exactly the kind of authors/franchises/companies that see a work's potential and they decide to get as much money as possible from it. I guess I'm so disappointed of other authors that I think the norm is this kind of thing.

 

So, I can tell you I'm extremely happy I got mad at the new plot points of Bands of Mourning and decided to ask for help in this forum, since now my collection of books is going to expand as well as I'll be able to enjoy many stories that make one big one. Trusting Brandon on this.

 

P.D. Just read Mistborn: Sectret History and OMG. My mind exploded. I was like: "oh oh OH I remember that from Hero of Ages...that part that made no sense at the time and...it was HIM?" *gasp* D:

 

[Pagerunner]

king of nowhere, the original plan was 32-36 books. There's some info here: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=590#49.

 

The way I have seen it accounted is:

• 7 Dragonsteel: Liar of Partinel/Lightweaver of Rens duology, time jump, 5-book Dragonsteel proper
• 3 White Sand
• 3 Elantris, each following a successive generation
• 9 Mistborn, 3 trilogies
• 2 Warbreaker
• 10 Stormlight, two 5-book subseries with a 15-year gap between the two
• 1 Silence Divine

Which left space for 1 more book, which I don't think we know anything about. (Aether of Night is often given that last slot. However, it was supposed to kick off a series that involved Decay, an early version of Ruin, so I think it was replaced by Mistborn in the overall outline. Some elements of the novel's magic system made their way to the Liar of Partinel draft, but they didn't fit well, so they will most likely not stay there.)

 

There are some places where the list could be trimmed down; Dragonsteel might be reduced to a trilogy, and The Silence Divine might have been "demoted" to a novella. But there's also plenty of growth. With the addition of the 4 Wax and Wayne books, splitting the first White Sand novel into three graphic novels, the occasional short fiction collections (first of which to come our way later this year), and potential other Cosmere projects that Brandon has mentioned (revived Aether of Night, Mistborn World War novella, other Secret Histories) and other planned series that may or may not be Cosmere (Dark One, Skybound, Soulburner), the number might reach 60 when it's all said and done.

[Luciellav]

To be fair, there is a third possibility when authors add random plot elements. Sometimes you start writing and then you get this great idea you have to put in. Or you realize that character X would be doing Y and add that. Then, before you know it, you've lost all control of your story which gets progressively longer and more meandering as you write it. I feel this what happened to WoT for a while, and I feel like it's happening to GRRM as well. Less about milking a cash cow, and more about the author losing control of his story.

That's why Brandon's method works so well; when he gets this awesome new idea he writes a NEW story, or novela, or book, or SERIES, instead of forcing it into his current book and bogging down the narrative.

 

I'm probably being unfair here (and incredibly out of topic), but...don't you think GRRM takes waaay too long for each book? I mean, look at Brandon, he has fleshed out soo many novels, soo complex, so diverse (I'm just getting aware of this complexity) in the span of 11 years, that makes me a bit sour that GRRM takes 4-6 years for each A song of Ice and Fire book.... with sidebooks that look like money catchers while the main story is still unsolved. 

 

Oh I don't know, the main reason I got into reading the era 1 Mistborn trilogy and knew Sanderson, was because I knew it was already complete and I didn't had to wait a bazillion years to know it's conclusion. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

As an amateur author I find that having too many ideas makes it harder to write a coherent narrative. Brandon deals with that by putting them in other books. If you look at the years between books in a SERIES, as opposed to books put out the number is closer to the average (though still faster.) Most authors either set those ideas aside, have them take over the narrative, or end up with writers block as they deal with them.

JKR had a major writing block that prevented book five from being written for a while. WoT lost the narrative and we got several books of haphazard plots (which is my gut feeling on SoIaF.) Brandon writes a sequel, because the first book is giving him trouble... Oh, and a novela, because he had this OTHER story that just needed to be written.

On a totally different topic, Luciellav, your reaction to SH was basically my reaction after reading this passage: "Well, yah, but everyone interprets it as a challenge. A test sent by the Sovereign? He was fond of those. Why would he let priests tell us about them, if he didn’t want us to come claim them?"

Otherwise known as the moment I realized who the Sovereign REALLY was.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Kingsdaughter613

[king of nowhere]

To be fair, there is a third possibility when authors add random plot elements. Sometimes you start writing and then you get this great idea you have to put in. Or you realize that character X would be doing Y and add that. Then, before you know it, you've lost all control of your story which gets progressively longer and more meandering as you write it. I feel this what happened to WoT for a while, and I feel like it's happening to GRRM as well. Less about milking a cash cow, and more about the author losing control of his story.

 

yeah, that can happen and it's a sort of in-between. to a degree, it's inevitable; even the best-plotted story will need some fixes once it's actually written, and the author may yet have a better idea come to him.  that's not necessarily bad; the whole wax and wayne concept is the result of this.

I'd say the important thing is still how the story overall is plotted; if the author get sidetracked, but he still has this complete story in mind and he's trying to set up the ending, or if he's just going in circles without any intention of coming to an end. it's like a painter realizing that he needs extra canvas to depict this scene that he has in mind, compared to one that is adding more and more random elements because he's paid for every brush stroke.

Unfortunately, most of the entertainment industry is like that today. that's the consequence of too much money. but then, if there wasn't all that money involved, we wouldn't have better entertainment; we'd just have less entertainment,  although there would be a higher people_doing_it_for_the_art/people_just_in_for_the_money ratio.

[Kingsdaughter613]

I've been rereading the HoA annotations, and guess what I found? "The Final Empire is at the North Pole. What's at the South Pole? Hum, I wonder..."

Also the annotations for chapter 58, which tell us all about Kelsier ascending. This is where I found out about that, BTW. Even as a casual fan I love to read about an author's process.

And AGAIN in chapter 63. Also a brief note in 72.

Another hint at the South for chapter 76...

Soon... finished rereading the annotations. I loved how Brandon says Vin and Elend will not appear in future Mistborn series... but neglects to mention Kelsier...

Considering how long these annotations have been available, and they are something even casual fans might have been expected to read, I feel there was plenty of foreshadowing. Then again, that might just be me...

Edited March 17, 2016 by Kingsdaughter613

[CaptainRyan]

Oh I don't know, the main reason I got into reading the era 1 Mistborn trilogy and knew Sanderson, was because I knew it was already complete and I didn't had to wait a bazillion years to know it's conclusion. 

 

@Luciellav I love that this is why you picked Mistborn haha! Now you are stuck in the same trap as the rest of us - hungrily waiting for the conclusion of the massive Cosmere story Sanderson is telling. Welcome to the club! It is a bit tough waiting for each new book but, as I think you have come to understand, it is totally worth it! Be sure to read the Stormlight Archive books (Way of Kings and Words of Radiance) as they are sooooooooooo good.