Just how special is Vasher?

[Pechvarry]

This is a terrible theory.

 

-Vasher has no memories of his prior life.

-That's probably not true.  Lightsong had hints of his former life.  They influenced his dreams.  They shaped his second life.

-Vasher helped make Nightblood.

-Nightblood is "based on" shardblades to an unknown degree.

-Seems like if Vasher knew how to worldhop for the last 400 years (leading up to the events of Warbreaker), he wouldn't be sticking around.

 

Sure, maybe Shashara was secretly the worldhopper.  But what if Vasher was?

 

What if the designs for Nightblood were guided by an intuitive understanding granted in a previous life?  For all we know, what if he was a Herald?  Think about the offer Endowment could supply a Herald: "You, who cannot die and cannot forget.  I can take these tortured memories, relieve you of your guilt.  I will remake you."

 

I'm probably not right.  But 15 years down the road, if I turn out to be right, maybe someone will see a cache of this page and go "that guy was right."  And then move on with their lives.

[Yata he/him]

Well I hate destroy theories but Vasher have to be a Nalthisian for two reason (they became three while writing) at least:

 

First of all to Return you have to have a connection to Endowment and/or piece of Endowment inside of you, people of other shardworld is quite impossible to Return.

If for some reason an outsider Returns, he can't Awaken anything because it's need the right sDNA (you may have Breath and give away but you can't Awaken anything with that Breaths).

Much more we see Vasher hidden his Breath to be undetacble by Life Sense, to be a true Drab you have to be a Nalthisian, other Humans can't hidden their soul because it isn't separable like the Breath.

 

There are more reasons but I suppose the previous are enough.

[Pechvarry]

Don't worry, you didn't crush my theory: I don't think any of that applies.  

 

Because my suggestion is that Endowment specifically rebuilt him.  Whole new everything.  Taking out his Honor investiture and replacing with Endowment's own, perhaps.  More likely smothering it until they become one and rewiring it, though.  I find it impossible to believe that Endowment wouldn't be able to wire an outsider to use Breath like a native.  Afterall, she created humanity on that planet, all by her self.

 

And to be clear, he needn't be a Herald (but it'd be awesome!).  Any worldhopper - even a native Nalthian - would do the trick.

 

The core of the theory is this: what if none of the five scholars were worldhoppers at the time they were called the five scholars, but that Vasher was a worldhopper in a previous life?

 

Edit - as for why?  I think a worldhopper, and one with deep knowledge of other worlds and their investitures, would represent quite an opportunity for Endowment to build her own Champion.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Pechvarry

[Khyrindor he/him]

I've thought about it before. Kalad = Kalak maybe? That's why people say "Kalak's Breath!" as a curse.

 

However, I seem to remember a WoB about Vasher that I will now look for.

 

EDIT:

 

 

BLACKYETI

In Words of Radiance, we have Vasher showing up. One of his aliases on Nalthis is Kalad, which is very similar to the name of one of the Heralds on Roshar. So I was wondering how far back this connection between him and Roshar goes.

BRANDON SANDERSON

It goes pretty far back, in fact I wrote Way of Kings, the 2002 version; he was a main character and was Kaladin’s sword master. I wrote Warbreaker to jump back and write out his back story, so to me Warbreaker actually came after Way of Kings. But the connection goes back pretty far, further than you would first guess.

For Yata:

 

BLACKYETI

Did he [Vasher] actually come from Nalthis and not Roshar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m not going to actually answer that one. Well I can answer that: yes he does come from Nalthis. It’s pretty obvious that the way that the Breath’s working, the reason he moved is because it’s easier to get Stormlight than Breaths, and Stormlight can fuel being a Returned like him. And so yes, he was born on Nalthis. Becoming Returned without being born on Nalthis would be really hard.

So it's not impossible, as you said. Edited March 9, 2016 by Khyrindor

[Pechvarry]

But it does shut down Herald-status.  That's probably for the best.

[Khyrindor he/him]

The Heralds don't necessarily have to be native to Roshar. Taln-not-Taln is said to look different from the typical Alethi.

 

That said...I don't know. If he were a Herald, say Kelek, would he be able to use Stormlight for rosharan magic systems? Namely powering his Honorblade or the Surges that came from that? I seem to remember a WoB about how he did worldhopping when he was younger, but I couldn't find it. He based Nightblood off of a Shardblade, which means he knows more than the average Rosharan about the nature of those.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Khyrindor

[Lirins hand]

I can't remember it being stated that all the heralds are from Roshar, but I don't think the timelines match up for him to be a herald.  Wasn't there a timeline in Warbreaker on how long there had been Returned?  Seems to me that that number was much smaller than the math done to figure out how long the desolations (and heralds) had been on Roshar.

 

WOB did say Nightblood was based on a shardblade, correct?  Not an honorblade like he would have had access to as a herald.

[Khyrindor he/him]

I can't remember it being stated that all the heralds are from Roshar, but I don't think the timelines match up for him to be a herald.  Wasn't there a timeline in Warbreaker on how long there had been Returned?  Seems to me that that number was much smaller than the math done to figure out how long the desolations (and heralds) had been on Roshar.

 

WOB did say Nightblood was based on a shardblade, correct?  Not an honorblade like he would have had access to as a herald.

 

Shardblades were based off of the Honorblades by the spren. And anyway, Nightblood is closer to an Honorblade than a Shardblade, since both of those consume Investiture, while Shardblades do not.

 

As for the timeline, I could speculate as follows: Kelek would have been a Herald for many many years before the last Desolation, at which point, he figured the Oathpact was complete. So he went home, back to Nalthis, where he asked Endowment to help him forget. He started a new life as a Returned, Kalad the Peacegiver, and became one of the 5 Scholars. That happened all 500 years before Warbreaker, and if he's Returned that leaves a whole life before then. 

 

I don't find it likely, but it would be an interesting twist.

[natc]

The Heralds don't necessarily have to be native to Roshar. Taln-not-Taln is said to look different from the typical Alethi.

That said...I don't know. If he were a Herald, say Kelek, would he be able to use Stormlight for rosharan magic systems? Namely powering his Honorblade or the Surges that came from that? I seem to remember a WoB about how he did worldhopping when he was younger, but I couldn't find it. He based Nightblood off of a Shardblade, which means he knows more than the average Rosharan about the nature of those.

I don't see how a herald not looking Alethi would mean anything in this case.

Not that I disagree, but that is strange justification for the origin of a guy whose presumed identity predates local modern civilization itself.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Hoid remarks that he has "dark skin", but he spoke perfect Alethi without an accent.

 

Shallan notes that he has "dark skin like a man from the Makabaki kingdoms."

 

So I suppose that's my mistake. It isn't necessarily important, just relevant.

[ARARITA he/him]

you may be interested in my post : A Holy Crap Nightblood Moment in the Warbreaker forum

 

I am not sure if the timelines match up or not for Vasher to be a Herald

my son and I have tossed around the idea - but it differs from your theory a bit

I get the feeling that the Heralds are not native but spacemen

or from a different planet - at very least     Worldhoppers

I believe Vasher is from Nalthis - I also believe he is a Worldhopper - previous to current situation

I believe he has been to Roshar and Scadrial previously

and I believe travelling to Scadrial applies to at least 2 of the 5 scholars - perhaps all

 

 

 

 

[Viridian she/her]

Any time someone has asked if the Heralds are native to Roshar, it's been RAFO'd (sorry, I can't link the relevant quotes - I'm on mobile - but one was from Salt Lake Comic Con a couple years ago).

But the biggest problem with Vasher as a Herald is probably the timeline. The Aharietiam was 4500 years before TWoK; Vo Returned only 1000 years before Warbreaker. Damnation, I'd love for this to be true, but I can't make Vasher fit.

[Pechvarry]

Viridian, you have my timeline backwards.  I was thinking along the lines that a Herald left his Honor Blade and went to Nalthis (or perhaps returned home) and was thus Returned, remade by Endowment.

 

Cutting out the Herald angle for a moment, though... perhaps someone should ask Brandon how many times Vasher has Returned.  

[Viridian she/her]

Viridian, you have my timeline backwards. I was thinking along the lines that a Herald left his Honor Blade and went to Nalthis (or perhaps returned home) and was thus Returned, remade by Endowment.

Oh, my apologies! I somehow completely overlooked that part, but I see it now. (Probably blinded by my old Vasher-is-Taln theory. )

Cutting out the Herald angle for a moment, though... perhaps someone should ask Brandon how many times Vasher has Returned.

I've had the belief for a while that Vasher didn't accomplish his reason for Returning, so he's stuck as he is, being immortal with no grand purpose. If he Returned more than once, that makes him a hero instead of a man living with failure, and his character doesn't make sense to me anymore.

There's obviously SOMEthing more about Vasher, something more than him being Returned. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a worldhopper before NB was made, but not sure if this sort of reincarnation can work in the cosmere...

*stops and thinks about the very end of Bands of Mourning*

...Huh.

[KidWayne he/him]

I'm currently nursing a pet theory that Vasher is/was the SunMaker (the guy who brought down the Hierocracy on Roshar).

[Pechvarry]

If he Returned more than once, that makes him a hero instead of a man living with failure, and his character doesn't make sense to me anymore.

I don't know, it seems to fit pretty well with me.  For myself, anyway, I see Vasher as a hero who only sees his own failures.  This would take the concept and crank it up to the Fifth Heightening.

 

I'm currently nursing a pet theory that Vasher is/was the SunMaker (the guy who brought down the Hierocracy on Roshar).

 

I APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE.

[natc]

Well it does sound like a Returned name drunken monkeys would love.

[DocHoliday he/him]

Poking holes.

In WoK, Kalak refering to Szeth says "that creature wields my own Lord's Blade!" The Blade refered to be Jezrien's.

Considering Vasher's status as a GOD. KING. and his general attitude, which hasn't dissipated in Zahel, I really doubt Vasher would ever reference anyone as His Lord.

That and their characters are so different.

Kalak is differential to Nal/Darkness.

Basher is fiercely independent.

[Pechvarry]

I never remember which Heralds are present in that prologue.  But I figured he's clearly not in that scene.

 

Either way, he could only be a Herald if the Heralds aren't native to Roshar (10 core shard worlds, 10 Heralds?) since Khyrindor's WoB says, in no uncertain language, that he was born on Nalthis.

 

So the core I'm trying to focus on, more than Heraldry, is the concept that Vasher was a worldhopper who then died and Returned, and had to rediscover worldhopping.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I can't remember it being stated that all the heralds are from Roshar, but I don't think the timelines match up for him to be a herald.  Wasn't there a timeline in Warbreaker on how long there had been Returned?  Seems to me that that number was much smaller than the math done to figure out how long the desolations (and heralds) had been on Roshar.

 

Any time someone has asked if the Heralds are native to Roshar, it's been RAFO'd (sorry, I can't link the relevant quotes - I'm on mobile - but one was from Salt Lake Comic Con a couple years ago).

But the biggest problem with Vasher as a Herald is probably the timeline. The Aharietiam was 4500 years before TWoK; Vo Returned only 1000 years before Warbreaker. Damnation, I'd love for this to be true, but I can't make Vasher fit.

 

I just want to comment on the fact that time is more complex than a straight line when you consider multiple worlds and intergalactic travel. I would not rule something out based on the fact that 4500 Rosharan Years does not equal to 1000 Nalthis Years. Time is relative and, presuming that traversing the Cognitive Realm is similar to flying a spaceship, people would age slower in transit than the residents of the two worlds (see time dilation) At this point in time it is impossible for us to predict exactly how much time would pass in the Physical Realm during Vasher's journey across the Cognitive, but I think it's entirely possible and should not be ruled out until proven otherwise.

 

In WoK, Kalak refering to Szeth says "that creature wields my own Lord's Blade!" The Blade refered to be Jezrien's.

 

Err... when did Kalak and Szeth ever meet? And since when is Jezrien Kalak's lord?

[Khyrindor he/him]

Szeth weild's Jezrien's Honorblade. In WoR* Prologue, Jasnah passed two of the Herald's in a hall, bearing Nalan's and Kalak's description, and Kalak said that Szeth carried His Lord's own blade.

[natc]

Jezrien is also the Herald of Kings for a reason. He's actual royalty (apparently), and his virtues lean towards being in charge.

Edited March 18, 2016 by natc

[Stormgate he/him]

So...where does that fit with Dalinar--the acting king of Alethkar--being a Bondsmith?

[natc]

Coppermind says Ishar (the Bondsmith patron) is Pious and Guiding while Jezrien was protection and leadership.

To be utterly fair the Almighty told Dalinar to "unite them", which is less leading people to do what needs to be done, and more to just make them shut up and work together in the first place.

[C. James-Mayer he/him]

Szeth weild's Jezrien's Honorblade. In WoR* Prologue, Jasnah passed two of the Herald's in a hall, bearing Nalan's and Kalak's description, and Kalak said that Szeth carried His Lord's own blade.

 

As far as I remember this is only speculation. Where did you get the information that Kalak is Nale's companion?

 

A simple visual description does not make him Kalak.