[BoM Spoilers] Spoiled Tomato... Plot hole?

[vividox]

While they are approaching the compound, they make it very clear that the Set has Seekers and they can't burn any metals. But then they use Spoiled Tomato to get Wayne to the compound, which requires Wax to flare steel. After Wayne creates the distraction and everyone else joins him, they again bring up Seekers and don't use any metals.

 

So... how exactly did Spoiled Tomato go unnoticed? 

Edited February 9, 2016 by vividox

[DeadFencer]

Flaring the metal is part of the distraction. Wax flares it, alerting the seekers, then moves away before they get there. The seekers search for a coinshot flying into the compound and around it, not a guy slinking around in the shadows.

[Voidus]

While they are approaching the compound, they make it very clear that the Set has Seekers and they can't burn any metals. But then they use Spoiled Tomato to get Wayne to the compound, which requires Wax to flare steel. After Wayne creates the distraction and everyone else joins him, they again bring up Seekers and don't use any metals.

 

So... how exactly did Spoiled Tomato go unnoticed? 

It was about being far enough away that the Seekers couldn't notice them but still get one of them into the compound to help the others.

[vividox]

Flaring the metal is part of the distraction. Wax flares it, alerting the seekers, then moves away before they get there. The seekers search for a coinshot flying into the compound and around it, not a guy slinking around in the shadows.

Ooooooh. I totally missed that part.

 

I think I get way too excited when I read these books, because I tend to overlook details like this ALL THE TIME. I really need to start a re-read. 

[DeadFencer]

Well I mean my response was just a guess. It could be a combination of that and what Voidus said. Generally Wax is too far to be noticed, but can be a distraction if he is.

[Pechvarry]

Still pretty questionable.  Bronze has a pretty good range, according to the original trilogy.  But it can't be "alert the seekers that someone burned steel way out there" because then everyone would be on high alert.  Scientist dog-and-pony shows would be cancelled.

[Shardbearer]

Yeah I thought it was about the others waiting outside Seeker range while throwing Wayne past the perimeter.

[Observer]

Getting anything over the wall would require flaring steel for a decent amount of time. So better to flare it out of range (or far enough away any Seeker not actively listening that moment would miss it), to send Wayne over than to push yourself into range on your way over.

IIRC Bronze only detects allomancers, not allomancy, so it should still work.

[Shardbearer]

Bronze can only see active us of allomancy.

[vividox]

I guess when I read it, there had been some mention of slipping past guards, so I thought they were already in a place were they couldn't use allomancy when Spoiled Tomato happened. 

[Voidus]

I guess when I read it, there had been some mention of slipping past guards, so I thought they were already in a place were they couldn't use allomancy when Spoiled Tomato happened. 

I'm guessing they assumed the Seekers would all be in the compound itself rather than patrolling, in which case chalk it up to plot armour that they were right.

[vividox]

Alright, I decided to just reread a few chapters and figure this out.

 

Wax et. al. approach the compound and assess their situation:

"They're here all right," Wax whispered. "We have to find a way to get in. Tons of soldiers. Well-guarded perimeter."

 

"Fly in," Steris suggested.

 

"Not gonna work," Wayne said. "They had a Seeker back at the party; you think they won't have one here? The moment one of us burns a metal, we'll draw a hundred of Suit's goons to welcome us with a handshake and a friendly bit of murderin'."

They then decide to move to another side of the compound to get a better view. On the way, Wax tells Steris he's going to leave her behind and she surprises him by agreeing. During this conversation:

"Well, I shall endeavor to stay out of sight," Steris said, "and not get captured."

 

"I doubt you need to worry about that all the way out here." (Wax)

 

"Oh, I agree," she said. "But that is the sort of statistical anomaly that plagues my life, so I'll plan for it nonetheless."

So at the first location, Wayne made it seem like any metal burning would set off the Seekers. At this location, Wax thinks Steris is pretty safe. The rest of the group then grabs the equipment they need for infiltration, leaves Steris and the horses behind, and make their way up some switchback stairs on the East side of the compound that lead to a darkened ridge above the waterfall. They then discuss infiltration options and decide on Spoiled Tomato - which requires a Steel flare.

 

When Wayne lands, guards come to investigate the noise of the body landing, not the flaring of a metal.

 

---------------

 

So, Wayne's comment was directed specifically at the notion of Wax flying in - which would require Wax to use Steel inside the compound to land. The perimeter was set up in such a way that they were safe at a distance, but then the Seekers would catch them when they got too close. That's why Spoiled Tomato worked without alerting any Seekers.

 

When I read this the first time, I just had Wayne's "murderin'" line stuck in my brain and thought that applied to Spoiled Tomato as well. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by vividox

[Shardbearer]

Yes, but in order to "fly in" Wax would have had to burn metal within the perimeter (IE slow himself down before landing). The Spoiled Tomato only needed him to use Steel at the launch point, which is supposedly far enough away to avoid Seeker detection.

[vividox]

Sorry, threw an edit in there before you got your response off. My conclusion wasn't worded well at all. I agree with you.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Yea I always assumed, from scenes with Marsh in TFE, that seekers had an AOE type deal going on. Get outside that bubble, you're good. But maybe it's more like a lesser effect the farther you get from the allomancer. I don't think it works like that, but has anyone in world put 1000 miles between a very strong seeker and an allomancer burning metals with no life between the two points to see if its possible? Or maybe Brandonalsium has said "No no, doesn't work like that!" at some point in the past.

[Pathfinder]

Yea I always assumed, from scenes with Marsh in TFE, that seekers had an AOE type deal going on. Get outside that bubble, you're good. But maybe it's more like a lesser effect the farther you get from the allomancer. I don't think it works like that, but has anyone in world put 1000 miles between a very strong seeker and an allomancer burning metals with no life between the two points to see if its possible? Or maybe Brandonalsium has said "No no, doesn't work like that!" at some point in the past.

I could look up quotes but I do recall Vin saying as enemy allomancers got away from her, the pulses got weaker, so that does sound like an radius of effect to me. 

[vividox]

I kind of assume that a Seeker has a range based on

 

A) how innately powerful the allomancer is

whether they are burning Bronze or flaring Bronze 

C) whether they are being enhanced by anything - Duralumin, a Hemalurgic spike, drawing upon the mists, etc.

 

So, for instance, I would assume that an average Seeker burning Bronze has an AOE of X, an average Seeker flaring Bronze has an AOE of Y, and Vin with her earring in and burning Duralumin has and AOE of Z, where Z >>>> Y > X.

 

I have nothing to base this off of, it's just an assumption. It's hard to think that any ability has a hard radius of effect attached to it regardless of how hard that ability is being pushed.

Edited February 10, 2016 by vividox