Feb 8 - Kuiper - Thresholds and Footholds (chapter 1)

[Kuiper]

"Thresholds and Footholds" is a new project I'm working on, a bit different from novels/serials that I've submitted to the group previously.  It's intended to be a series of vignettes in a shared setting.

 

 

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this first chapter, both about how you think it functions as a standalone piece, and how well-acquainted you feel with the setting afterward.  Is the first chapter "satisfying" by itself?  Does it make you want to read more?  I'd love to hear your impressions and remarks.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Kuiper

[Eisenheim]

Okay, my biggest thought is that I'm really curious about how this works.  The problem, as a standalone piece right now, is that there's not enough going on other than figuring that out to make it fun instead of frustrating how long it takes to learn what's going on.  

Basically, there are two questions in this piece: what's going on with ashley, and what's going on with these dead people.  Answering the second one takes most of the time, and the pace of revelation is frustrating, because I have no investment other than wanting an answer to the question.

[Marci she/her]

Hey there! 

 

Overall, I enjoyed the piece. It kept me reading and wondering exactly how this world of yours worked, what Ashley's deal is, how the bar works (and how the spirits understand how it works) and whether or not Courtney is also one of the dead/undead. The theme I got from this is that anything is better than being bored/feeling nothing. Because of how Courtney approaches her bar patrons, I'd like there to be a more positive spin put on this message. I'll keep reading, should you decide to share more with the group.

 

As far as the wordsmithing is concerned, be on the lookout for unnecessary details (something I'm guilty of, myself), as well as preposition abuse. In places your words tend to sprawl out, describing settings and action in a roundabout fashion. I'd also take a look at your dialog to see how you can tighten that up, as well. You tended to repeat certain words and phrases, especially in the dialog between Courtney and the Union soldier.

 

The only other quibble I have is with lack of character description. Ashley in particular comes off as robotic to me, rather than depressed. I'd like you to show me more body language and tone. If she feels alive when she's fighting, I want to see it!

 

I've taken your .doc into Google docs and made far more detailed comments and suggestions on a line-by-line basis. Would you like me to email you the link?

 

In all, I think you've got a great start here! Thanks so much for sharing.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Marci

[Eisenheim]

In my experience, depressed can look a lot like robot from the outside.  I think that speaks to the issue though of not getting into anyone's head.  Right now, the story feels like its perspective is that of a camera filming the scenes: we don't get anyone's perspective from the inside, but we don't have an omniscient narrator either.

[Mandamon he/him]

pg 3: "I won't get hurt," 

--interesting.  Is this magic, or bravado?  I don't quite have a concept of the setting yet.  Seems to be present day from the references.

 

pg 5: "Not the pain in my chest, or the sight of my blood dripping from his bayonet, but the look on his face.  "

--okay, so purgatory or a limbo of some sort?

 

pg 5: "It's the first of March, 2015," said Courtney

--well, that settles it.  But is this a physical place?

 

pg 5: ""As best we've been able to figure out, there are certain kinds of memories that are stored mostly in the mind, and certain memories that linger with the soul, or the spirit, or whatever you want to call it.  "

--this is a strange bit of infodumping, as I don't even know where they are or why I need to know about memories, minds, and souls.

 

pg 6-12: I sort of skimmed over all the discussion about good and bad, how one feels after dying, the recognition of a tune and flags, and identifying where the man came from.  I can't tell how it's relevant to the plot yet.  I don't really have a connection to this guy who can't remember his name.  There's a lot of over-explaining concepts that the readers will be familiar with, even if the man doesn't know them.  

I'm much more interested in Ashley knife fighting.

 

pg 13: "as long as you're here, you a physical body with very real blood"

--interesting

 

pg 16: so I guess Ashley is still alive then?  I'm not sure.  I think there was probably too much explanation about the definition of depression.  Once the reader knows that's what Ashley is dealing with, the point is settled.  As the others have said, I would reveal that concept with her actions rather than her talking about it.  The last line revealing that she was talking to her Grandfather sounded like it was meant to signify something important, but I'm not sure what it was.

 

Overall, this was fairly interesting.  I'm more intrigued by the concept of the bar where the dead and living mix.  I'm guessing this is an actual bar in a city somewhere, rather than a meeting place in the spirit world, but I'm not sure yet.  I'm not really interesting in identifying where the ghosts come from, unless it's going to mean something to the story.

I don't think this works as a standalone, as there's no real conclusion.  We don't know what's up with Ashley, or what happens to her.  I still know almost nothing about how the bar and Courtney work.  It's honestly not that satisfying, but I'm willing to read more in hopes that the next chapter explains some more.

[Shrike76 he/him]

P1 - Is it possible for the knife to physically change shape? Otherwise that's probably not the description you want.

P1 - Ashley released her grip on him" - There's no need for this " mark.

P1 - hand to his chest, moaning" - Or this one.

 

The writing is pretty clean, and I think you balanced dialogue and description well. It's definitely readable.

 

On page two, I'm REALLY not a fan of these turning out to be practice knives, especially after it was described as being intimidating. This is a put-the-book-down-permanently moment for me.  She can see the knife, but you describe it as a knife, and present it as a dangerous situation even though the character very well knows that it isn't. I hate it when a POV character knows something, but doesn't say it, and then the "surprise" is to reveal what they knew all along to the reader. Seeing it on page 2 of a book means I'm afraid it's the sort of plot device you're going to turn to often, and if I wasn't critiquing it and instead reading it for pleasure, I'd be done with it and on to the next book on my shelf immediately.

 

You mentioned ghosts and regular people, I'm not sure why Courtney would say that Ashley would only have a physical body here on page 13. Ashley steps through the door normally, as opposed to Ben who disappears, so I don't know what it is that seta Ashley apart from the normal people. I'm sort of curious, but if it turns out that the special reveal is something that Ashley knew all along, then I reiterate the sentiments I expressed at page 2.

 

That being said, you have an interesting premise here, and an interesting setting. Things I'm curious to know is if there are other places like this bar, how this bar got to be the place that is is, how the dead know to come here in the first place, and how Courtney got to be here. I'm also, as mentioned above, curious to know what makes Ashley special.

The characterization is probably the weakest part of this piece. We find out through Courtney's eyes what Ashley wants, so we don't get much of a sense of where all of Ashley's motivation comes from. The civil war soldier is interesting, but I think you missed an opportunity to use that encounter to show us more about who Courtney is, how she got to be there, and how she feels about the dead man in front of her. Courtney's probably the most interesting person in this chapter because she's the only one we see a lot of, but I get the feeling that Ashley is supposed to be your major main character? Time will tell, but that's my first impression.

[Robinski he/him]

I enjoyed this first submission up to a point, but did have some issues with it. I liked the reveal in the first part of them using practice weapons, which I did not twig until the moment of reveal. The dialogue in the second part was rather heavy and wordy, and could really be cut down significantly to make it more effective, I think. Also, there is a significant issues with repetition of words and phrases close together, which leads to awkward phrasing that makes me stop, breaks up the flow.

 

This said, I enjoyed the tone of the second part between the soldier and the barmaid, it could almost be from a different story. There’s a certain sense of pathos about it that is quite affecting, like a cowboy moseying away for the last time (cf. John Wayne in The Searchers).

 

The third section did not do so much for me. I think you could dial up the angst a bit. I don’t get a great deal of emotion from any of the characters, I'm not sure how they feel about what is going on with them. The ending is interesting. I like the way you dealt with Ashley phoning her grandpa. I wasn’t sure whether she was dead or not, maybe that is what you intended, but I also did not get the sense that it was a big reveal that she was not.

 

Interesting stuff, but there are certainly issues with repetition, dialogue and emotion that could be addressed in the edit. Still, nice work, I'm keen to read more.

 

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“shape hadn't changed since the moment she'd picked it up” – Seems extraneous, but interesting idea.

 

“Well, as little as any 15-year-old girl could be” – This rang odd to me – people can have wide-ranging sizes as a given age.

 

“drew his knife up for an overhead swing” – This sounds like he leaves himself completely open to a low thrust to the belly, maybe it’s just in the description though.

 

There's a lot of mention of ‘knife, knife, knife’ – Maybe consider switching one to ‘blade’ or some other alternative?

 

“I mean the way you blocked my knife with your arm. It just bounced right off. You couldn't do that if we were using real knives” – This is way, way too much telling. We’ve established that they are practice knives, which was nicely done, but let the reader work out some stuff on their own.

 

Interesting opening, still don’t know why they’re doing, or what kind of situation they are in – sounds vaguely like it’s a youth club or some such. I'm happy enough to continue without knowing more. By no means is the lack of information annoying.

 

“"Just coffee's fine," said the man. The man looked young” – repetition.

 

“I'm not in the business of prying into other people's business,” – awkward with the repetition of ‘business’.

 

“I like learning about people, but not when it makes them uncomfortable." – The man took a sip of his coffee. "Truth be told, I was hoping you might be able to help me figure out my past.” – I'm finding the dialogue a bit strange. Everyone is very open and honest, almost naive. I would say that people do not speak this way, especially not in a place which seems to have some possibly nefarious goings-on going on.

 

“It was a look that told me he had just realized what it was that he had done, and would have live with that moment for the rest of his life”

 

“He had to finish the fight”

 

“As best we've been able to figure out, there are certain kinds of memories that are stored mostly in the mind, and certain memories that linger with the soul, or the spirit, or whatever you want to call it. If a soul spends too much time apart from the mind, it tends to lose its grasp on details like numbers.” – Feels rather info-dumpy.

 

“could remember every detail of her honeymoon with incredible detail” – more repetition.

 

“I just realized," said the man. "I don't remember my own name” – this is certainly becoming more interesting. Notwithstanding a certain amount of info dump, as noted, I like the pacing of the reveal of information in this part.

 

“There's something that seems a bit wrong about calling someone a dead person to their face” – The dialogue is very wordy, certainly sprinkled with a lot of unnecessary words. Saying out loud is a good trick to get a handle on what is realistic, this section about passing over sounds a bit like a lecture or seminar. There are some nice lines, but weighed down I think with excess dialogue that could be cut back a fair bit.

 

“Supposing heaven and hell were real” – this is a curious line, given that they don’t seem to know what is beyond the doors.

 

“and held it for a moment, smiling at the cover for a moment” – this repetition is really a thing now.

 

“you have a physical body with very real blood” - ?

 

“I've learned that the opposite of happiness isn't sadness. It's boredom.” – This sounds like almost exactly the same message as the man communicated.

 

“I'm not an expert on medicine,” – wordiness, e.g. ‘I'm not a doctor,’

 

“The two fighters walked to the door” – I know what you mean by this, but I did not like that you reduce these two people to ‘fighters’ when there is obviously much more to them.

[Kuiper]

Hey guys, thanks to everyone who took the time to read and respond.  I do agree that the piece is in dire need of a line-edit, particularly when it comes to repetitive wording, so I appreciate everyone who took the time to point out the places where my language is especially in need of improvement.

 

 I'm more intrigued by the concept of the bar where the dead and living mix. 

This was intended to be the "heart" of the story.  The crux of the setting is that it's a place where the dead are given (temporary) corporeal bodies, making them indistinguishable from the living.  (Though it might have been poorly presented, this was the intent behind Courtney's line about how "as long as you're here, you a physical body with very real blood.")  In this setting, dead and living can interact as peers in a way that sometimes makes it unclear who is living and who is dead (both to the reader and to the other characters in the story), and that dynamic is what made me want to write stories in this setting.

 

It's intentionally ambiguous as to whether Ashley is living or dead, up until the end.  The "big reveal" was supposed to be that Ashley and Ben step out of the bar, Ben vanishes, and Ashley stays in her corporeal body; for Ashley, life goes on (she was alive the whole time).  Unfortunately, I don't think I got this across clearly.  I think viewpoint might be a problem for this story: if an "objective" narrator had conveyed the final scene, the contrast between the dead guy who vanished and the living girl who kept existing might have been more apparent.  However, because the final scene is third-person limited from Ashley's POV, it's not really clear what is happening.  The piece also doesn't capitalize on a lot of the advantages of third-person limited; even though we get scenes from both Ashley and Courtney's POV, we don't get a very clear picture of the motivations and internal thoughts for either of them.  I may try experimenting with a more "objective" viewpoint; I don't write omniscient often, but this story might be a place for me to practice with it.

 

“I've learned that the opposite of happiness isn't sadness. It's boredom.” – This sounds like almost exactly the same message as the man communicated.

This was intentional.  The reason that I chose to tell two separate "stories" in this first chapter was that I wanted to set up a contrast between two characters, one living and one dead.  The soldier has spent a lot of time feeling "numb" due to being a disembodied spirit for many years, and he contemplates whether hell might be better than feeling nothing.  Ashley has spent a lot of time feeling "numb" due to a chemical imbalance in her brain, and has decided that physical pain is preferable to feeling nothing.  The parallelism here is deliberate, I wanted things to sort of "rhyme" thematically, but I may have overdone it a bit, especially when using nearly identical language in the dialog for both Ashley and the soldier.

[Robinski he/him]

This was intentional.  The reason that I chose to tell two separate "stories" in this first chapter was that I wanted to set up a contrast between two characters, one living and one dead.  The soldier has spent a lot of time feeling "numb" due to being a disembodied spirit for many years, and he contemplates whether hell might be better than feeling nothing.  Ashley has spent a lot of time feeling "numb" due to a chemical imbalance in her brain, and has decided that physical pain is preferable to feeling nothing.  The parallelism here is deliberate, I wanted things to sort of "rhyme" thematically, but I may have overdone it a bit, especially when using nearly identical language in the dialog for both Ashley and the soldier.

 

I like that idea. I didn't really get it though until you explained it just now. I think you could clarify that message in the story. The wording jarred for me because it was almost exactly the same. Probably, it would have jarred so much if I had got the subtleties of the message.