On the Medallions [Bands Spoilers]

[RShara]

So, I'm confused as to how the medallions work.  How can a Nicrosil ferring reduce their Identity enough to make an unlocked Feruchemical nicrosil medallion?  And other ferrings reduce their identity enough to add to it?  Is it a matter of using Feruchemical aluminum?  But then how does an Feruchemical nicrosil ferring use Feruchemical aluminum?

 

Also, how can a non-Feruchemical nicrosil person tap the Feruchemical nicrosil, even if it's unlocked?  Don't you still need to be able to tap Nicrosil in order to use it?  Unlocked just means that someone else can use a metal mind that you created, it doesn't give you the ability to actually use that metal if it's not in your sDNA, right?

Is Nicrosil special in that it allows anyone to use its Investiture?

[Chaos]

Please use the relevant spoiler tags as stated in the spoiler policy: http://www.17thshard.com/news/brandon-news/bands-of-mourning-release-spoiler-policies-mi-r247

[RShara]

Ooooohhh I forgot about the topic ticker.  Sorry!

[natc]

Well presumably the Sovereign (who is probably not TLR) was probably fullborn and made the first unlocked nicrosilmind that was used to create the rest, I would think.

As for why it's tappable . . . quite the mystery there . . .

[Pagerunner]

For the first question: Allik said that medallions with two metals were common, and three metals were possible. So, once they got started (probably the TheLordRuler/TheSurvivor), a F-Aluminum/F-Nicrosil medallion could potentially be used with any Metalborn to create medallions of their power.

 

For the second... I'm in the same boat as you. If you could make a Nicrosil mind that anyone could tap, to let them gain a Metalborn ability to tap something else, then why not just skip the Nicrosil step entirely? We might get a hint from Warbreaker. There, humans can give up part of their Innate Investiture, or absorb someone else's Innate Investiture. Because Nicrosil deals directly with Investiture, its abilities might be unlocked to everyone who has a bit of Preservation in them. It's not that anyone can tap Nicrosil, it's that anyone can tap Innate Investiture (which, of course, Nicrosil can hold directly). I'm specifying Innate Investiture, because on Roshar you need a spren to hold Stormlight; only certain kinds of Investiture, the kind that come from people (Breath, Metallic Arts abilities) can be drawn directly.

 

EDIT: Accidentally had F-Iron/F-Nicrosil. Thanks for the correction.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Pagerunner

[RShara]

You mean Feruchemical aluminum/Feruchemical nicrosil?

 

I guess I don't understand how a non-Feruchemical aluminum ferring can store Identity in anything enough to be able to make an unlocked metalmind of their own metal.

[Pagerunner]

What do you mean by a non-Feruchemical aluminum ferring? Someone who has gained Identity from a medallion? An aluminum ferring that isn't a full Feruchemist?

[RShara]

Uh, I must have not been thinking about what I typed because that is totally not clear lol.  How can a non-Feruchemical aluminum ferring of any sort make an unlocked metalmind?  They need to be able to store their Identity somewhere, but if they're not Feruchemical aluminum ferrings, how can they do that?

 

A fullborn could make a metal mind that can be tapped, but how would they make a metalmind that can store Identity for someone who isn't an Feruchemical aluminum ferring?

 

Does that make any more sense?  I'm having a hard time explaining what I mean on this topic.

[Pagerunner]

Aha, I think I see what you're saying now. Metalborn abilities aren't tied to your Identity (capital i). VenDell says Identity is connected to the Spiritual Realm; magical abilities are more related to the Cognitive Realm. (To the best of my understanding. Which is why Snapping on Scadrial happens to those who suffer trauma, and why Spren are also attracted to the mentally damaged on Roshar.) So, storing identity is who you ARE, not what you can do. So, when you store in Aluminum, you don't lose any other abilities.

 

That's what I suspect storing in Nicrosil does, though - store your abilities in a metalmind. So, I would take your question in a slightly different direction: how can a Nicrosil Ferring store his F.Nicrosil power in a Nicrosil metalmind, since he loses the ability to store as he stores his ability? (That's a mouthful.) In another thread, I said that I think compounding is used to create and recharge these medallions, so you don't need to give up your F.Nicrosil ability to store it. That helps you

[RShara]

No, I don't think that's what I'm trying to ask, lol.

 

So, you are the only one that can use a metalmind you created, because it's tied to your identity.  You can create an unlocked metalmind that anyone with the ability to tap that metalmind can use if you can reduce your identity to 0.

Only Feruchemical aluminum ferrings or fFullborns can reduce their identity to 0, by storing their identity in Aluminum.

 

So how does an Feruchemical nicrosil ferring, who can't reduce his identity, create an unlocked metalmind?  Even assuming he could tap an unlocked Aluminum metal mind (a la TLR/Sovereign), that would tap the metalmind and increase his Identity, not reduce it.

[Pagerunner]

Maybe I'll get it right this time. Assuming you start with an unkeyed nicrosil metalmind that has F.Nicrosil and F.Aluminum, and give it to a Brass Ferring:

 

1. Ferring Taps Nicrosil. Gains F.Nicrosil and F.Aluminum. Now has three F. Abilities.

 

2. Ferring Stores in Aluminum, storing Identity. Doesn't matter what in. From now on, whatever he stores will be unkeyed.

 

3. Ferring Stores in Nicrosil, storing unkeyed F.Brass ability. Creates the Nicrosil part of the medallion.

 

4. Ferring Stops storing in Nicrosil. Regains F.Brass ability.

 

5. Ferring Stores in Brass, storing unkeyed heat. Creates the Brass part of the medallion.

 

Those initial medallions would have come from the Sovereign. Also, Step 1 is the second question in your original post; I don't entirely get how it's possible, but it definitely works. It's how we have seen the Bands and the Medallions behave. Anyone can tap unkeyed Nicrosil; however, it is the only metalmind that behaves that way.

 

So, at no point do you need to tap identity to do this. A nicrosil ferring doesn't need F.Aluminum to TAP someone else's metalmind, but to STORE in his own, so that he can store unkeyed Investiture.

 

Did I finally understand what you're asking?

[RShara]

Closer. 

 

I know you don't need to tap Feruchemical aluminum.  But you need to be able to store Identity.  From what I've been able to tell, the medallions don't give you the ability to store Identity (or heat or weight or investiture).  They give you the ability to tap identity, or heat or weight or investiture. 

 

So how do you store Identity in order to be able to create an unlocked metalmind of any sort?

[Havoc]

The medallions definitely do let you store weight, which is how the whole party was able to become light enough for the skimmer to carry.

[RShara]

Mmmmm that would explain a lot.  But it also raises even more questions.  I mean, I can see being able to tap an unlocked metalmind, but being able to fill it seems wrong for the rules that we know.

[mossyfisk]

Think of dumping your Identity as discarding your user credentials for a guest account, and when you make a fresh metalmind like that it's like you never installed user account control in the first place. 100% insecure server.

 

There's a joke in there somewhere about using the telegram network to illegally download magic, but I'm too tired to come up with it.

Edited January 27, 2016 by mossyfisk

[natc]

There's no indication that the ironminds are even meant to be reused as far as I can see. The ship wasn't meant to transport people besides the crew, and they probably have spares.

[fyodor]

Regarding 1, the brass ferring wouldn't be able to tap the Nicrosilmind in the first place. I guess you could have a nicrosil ferring tap  nicrosilminds to get investiture for for aluminum and brass, but it seems like you'd eventually run out of your original stores of brass investiture. 

 

You also then run into the problem of how regular people can tap the Nicrosilminds to get the weight/heat abilities. The aluminum trick would mean that it's not limited to a particular person but they'd still need the feruchemical ability to tap nicrosil.

 

 

 

Maybe I'll get it right this time. Assuming you start with an unkeyed nicrosil metalmind that has F.Nicrosil and F.Aluminum, and give it to a Brass Ferring:

 

1. Ferring Taps Nicrosil. Gains F.Nicrosil and F.Aluminum. Now has three F. Abilities.

 

2. Ferring Stores in Aluminum, storing Identity. Doesn't matter what in. From now on, whatever he stores will be unkeyed.

 

3. Ferring Stores in Nicrosil, storing unkeyed F.Brass ability. Creates the Nicrosil part of the medallion.

 

4. Ferring Stops storing in Nicrosil. Regains F.Brass ability.

 

5. Ferring Stores in Brass, storing unkeyed heat. Creates the Brass part of the medallion.

 

Those initial medallions would have come from the Sovereign. Also, Step 1 is the second question in your original post; I don't entirely get how it's possible, but it definitely works. It's how we have seen the Bands and the Medallions behave. Anyone can tap unkeyed Nicrosil; however, it is the only metalmind that behaves that way.

 

So, at no point do you need to tap identity to do this. A nicrosil ferring doesn't need F.Aluminum to TAP someone else's metalmind, but to STORE in his own, so that he can store unkeyed Investiture.

 

Did I finally understand what you're asking?

[fyodor]

The nicrosil ferring doesn't need to store his feruchemical abilities to tap nicrosil. He needs to be able to store another feruchemical ability (weight storage, heat storage, etc.) . 

 

 

That's what I suspect storing in Nicrosil does, though - store your abilities in a metalmind. So, I would take your question in a slightly different direction: how can a Nicrosil Ferring store his F.Nicrosil power in a Nicrosil metalmind, since he loses the ability to store as he stores his ability? (That's a mouthful.) In another thread, I said that I think compounding is used to create and recharge these medallions, so you don't need to give up your F.Nicrosil ability to store it. That helps you

[natc]

Sure they need to store their nicrosil powers.

How else would you get more nicrosil ferrings after the "Sovereign" (Kelsier or otherwise) leaves? You need more medallions that create people that can create medallions.

[Szmit]

Considering that nicrosil and aluminium ferrings are extremely rare, Even in elendil, I seriously doubt that the medallions are loaded with F-nicrosil and F-aluminium normally.

My theory is that sovergen has made a super-medalion that has F-aluminum and compounding pair of nicrosil.

That would let anyone with the super-medal create infinitely many empty medals to be loaded with other powers.

As for some proof, even Wax who doesn't know storm about medallions thought of recharging the BoM with compounding.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Szmit

[+tabitreader]

Has anyone considered that there is a 32 metal Fullborn alive in the Alloy Era.

Marsh

His additional spikes given by Ruin over 300 years ago gave him all 32 attributes. All his spikes are full power except for an eyeball spike that was out-of-body/blood for only a short time.

Plus, he pocketed those Atium beads seized from the kandra being sold by the 2nd generation long ago. Those beads being compounded would grant him extra life outside of compounding gold.

Thoughts?

[Pagerunner]

4 hours ago, tabitreader said:

Has anyone considered that there is a 32 metal Fullborn alive in the Alloy Era.

Marsh

His additional spikes given by Ruin over 300 years ago gave him all 32 attributes. All his spikes are full power except for an eyeball spike that was out-of-body/blood for only a short time.

Plus, he pocketed those Atium beads seized from the kandra being sold by the 2nd generation long ago. Those beads being compounded would grant him extra life outside of compounding gold.

Thoughts?

Why do you say Marsh has all Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities? Inquisitors weren't built with everything, and even if Marsh took all the spikes from all the other dead Inquisitors, there's no guarantee that there would be any that would have a F.Nicrosil spike or an A.Gold spike or anything like that.

And we know that Marsh isn't the Sovereign; they have their single eye spikes in opposite eyes. (Apparently, Marsh didn't replace the spike he lost.)

[+hwiles]

7 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Why do you say Marsh has all Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities? Inquisitors weren't built with everything, and even if Marsh took all the spikes from all the other dead Inquisitors, there's no guarantee that there would be any that would have a F.Nicrosil spike or an A.Gold spike or anything like that.

And we know that Marsh isn't the Sovereign; they have their single eye spikes in opposite eyes. (Apparently, Marsh didn't replace the spike he lost.)

I've heard other people indicate that Marsh may only have one eye-spike, but in AoL, Marasi specifically comments on Marsh having a "pair" of eye spikes several times during her one brief scene with him...I only have the original edition of the book; do you know if this scene has been changed?

[Pagerunner]

9 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I've heard other people indicate that Marsh may only have one eye-spike, but in AoL, Marasi specifically comments on Marsh having a "pair" of eye spikes several times during her one brief scene with him...I only have the original edition of the book; do you know if this scene has been changed?

As far as I'm aware, there's no change made to the text. It was my recollection, as well, that he had two, and the explanation I've been given was that he was wearing a fake spike at the time for some reason. It's also possible that it's a retcon, that Brandon changed his mind for some reason. But, in the quote I gave you, he did say that Marsh only has one eye spike.

[+hwiles]

15 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

As far as I'm aware, there's no change made to the text. It was my recollection, as well, that he had two, and the explanation I've been given was that he was wearing a fake spike at the time for some reason. It's also possible that it's a retcon, that Brandon changed his mind for some reason. But, in the quote I gave you, he did say that Marsh only has one eye spike.

Well, I guess he could be using a fake spike for the same reason people who have lost an eye, ear, breast, or nose often wear prosthetics.  I can see plenty of valid reasons why he wouldn't want to walk around with a gaping hole in his face, ranging from hygiene to not freaking people out worse than he already does.

Huh...Thanks for the clarification, I'll bear that in mind.