Nightwatcher and Hemalurgy

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

I would say that such opposing shards probably wouldn't mix.

But feruchemy is obvious evidence to the contrary.
So at least if odium remained on Roshar long enough... It is probably inevitable that a magic system would arise that had both odium and honor in it.

[Tasty Flesh]

Maybe! I wonder if not because the humans on Roshar wouldn't be invested by Odium (as far as we know), as they were probably created by Honor and Cultivation, as opposed to Scadrial, where the humans were created by Ruin and Preservation.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

This may be true...

I kind of wonder if the parshendi were the original inhabitants of Roshar and then honor and cultivation created humans there.

At any rate, it is hard to tell how the shards have invested in the various races. There are "regular humans", parshendi, and aimians, all of which are different species.

[Ari he/him]

Intersting point...I wonder if perhaps, as we saw Feruchemy being in between Preservation and Ruin, that might be what the Nightwatcher's magic is...would that also mean there is one in between Honor and Odium, and Cultivation and Odium? Or perhaps Odium hasn't been on Roshar long enough for that to occur.

 

Odium has managed to Invest some significant power on Roshar, although possibly not as much as Preservation or Ruin did on Scadrial. It would seem likely that if he's Invested enough to power Everstorms, have his own category of Spren, and his own magic system, it's likely it's entangle to some degree with the other two. This may, however, mean that there's only three Systems- the Honour/Cultivation one, the Odium one, and the All Three Shards one.

[A Windspren he/him]

I think that Taravangian's boon was his intelligence, and his curse was the pain he has constantly. Odium then corrupted the boon so that his empathy would decrease when he was more intelligent. When Mr.T didn't do anything really destructive, Odium made him hyper intelligent for a day (the day he made the Diagram) and shared a bit of future sight, but also changing some of it so that Mr.T would plan something that would destroy whatever defences humanity could make against Odium.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Odium has managed to Invest some significant power on Roshar, although possibly not as much as Preservation or Ruin did on Scadrial. It would seem likely that if he's Invested enough to power Everstorms, have his own category of Spren, and his own magic system, it's likely it's entangle to some degree with the other two. This may, however, mean that there's only three Systems- the Honour/Cultivation one, the Odium one, and the All Three Shards one.

 

What is the all three shards one? Do we know of such a system?

 

I think that Taravangian's boon was his intelligence, and his curse was the pain he has constantly. Odium then corrupted the boon so that his empathy would decrease when he was more intelligent. When Mr.T didn't do anything really destructive, Odium made him hyper intelligent for a day (the day he made the Diagram) and shared a bit of future sight, but also changing some of it so that Mr.T would plan something that would destroy whatever defences humanity could make against Odium.

 

I am not sure if we can attribute that much power to odium, given how sneaky ruin had to be about manipulating things. I am fairly sure odium whispered in Taravangian's ear on the day of the diagram, but to actually alter Taravangian's blessing seems significantly more difficult. Unless Taravangian shared some kind of bond with odium before this point. Which I find very unlikely.

I would bet that the fluctuating empathy was part of nightwatcher's blessing/curse.

It would help to better understand the nightwatcher. It is really quite a fascinating feature of the world of Roshar, a being that grants wishes mixed with curses. Quite a few characters allude to various small curses they live with as a result of a visit to nightwatcher.

For that matter, I'm not sure we really understand cultivation's intent terrifically well. We can make some good guesses, but very little can be known.

[Ari he/him]

What is the all three shards one? Do we know of such a system?

 

Pure speculation, I'm just saying that an entangling of all three Shard's powers is as likely as an entangling of Cultivation and Odium and an entangling of Honour and Odium. And of course, it could be that we have all three.

[emailanimal he/him]

I agree with this assessment, Ari. I think there is also a mention of this on WoR, from Jasnah, when she is on the ship at the beginning, talking to Shallan. I'll try to find the quote when I get home.

Personally, I think that Surgebinding (that is, Investiture coming from Honor) is end-positive, Boons and Curses (Cultivation) are end-neutral, and Voidbinding (Odium) are end-negative. I think it makes sense based on what we know of the shards on Scadrial, and based on what we know of the former two magic systems.

 

 

You are making a very big assumption that Surgebinding comes solely from Honor.  Based on available evidence, it appears that Surgebinding is a way in which Honor and Cultivation combined their way of Investing into people.

[emailanimal he/him]

My two cents are roughly as follows. I agree with everyone who thinks that Nightwatcher is some form in which Cultivation chooses to appear to people (a Stormfather-like spren, or another form).  I think that everyone who visited Nightwatcher has been Invested by Cultivation in a way Endowment Invests on Nalthis. The difference is that the effect of the Investiture on individuals is unique to an individual. This appears to be a function of what Cultivation is, as compared to Honor, Endowment and so on.

 

I do not think that the mechanism by which humans are obtaining their boons and curses is outside of Shardic abilities.  Nightwatcher and Stormfather may predate the coming of Honor and Cultivation to Roshar, but I think they have been essentially repurposed to carry on their respective wills.

 

I am also these days under the influence of Ym's religion which basically says that One must become Many to obtain EXP. Because I believe at the moment that Ym's religion actually explains, in some simplified and possibly twisted way, the workings of Cosmere (and the past and future history of Adonalsium and the Shards), it appears to me that just Shattering into 16 pieces is not enough - each Shard essentially is under compulsion to continue producing miniscular splinters of its power and Investing them into sentient beings.  I think that Nightwatcher's boons and curses is another way for Cultivation to do so (in addition to its participation in Surgebinding)

 

As for Hemalurgically stealing boons and curses... Here is what I think is a possibility. Because boons and curses appear to be Investiture-based, they *can* be stolen using Hemalurgy.  However, I would not be surprised if the following are the conditions:

  1. You cannot steal just one - the spike must steal both the boon and curse.

  2. The placement of the spike is unique to each individual due to the fact that their boons and curses are unique. This makes stealing boons and curses very difficult, because unless someone actually can compute the location of the spike placement by knowing the exact nature of the boon and the curse, one would never know how to find this spot.

 

Note: The latter assumes that all boons and curses are person-related. I think there was one case mentioned in one interlude (the Shalash one, I think), where the boon was something like a length of cloth to be sold.  Clearly, this is not the sort of boon you can steal with Hemalurgy, but it is also not clear how reliable the source of this information is.

Edited February 4, 2016 by emailanimal

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Interesting thought on boons and hemalurgy. Those conditions sound accurate.

 

I agree with this assessment, Ari. I think there is also a mention of this on WoR, from Jasnah, when she is on the ship at the beginning, talking to Shallan. I'll try to find the quote when I get home.

Personally, I think that Surgebinding (that is, Investiture coming from Honor) is end-positive, Boons and Curses (Cultivation) are end-neutral, and Voidbinding (Odium) are end-negative. I think it makes sense based on what we know of the shards on Scadrial, and based on what we know of the former two magic systems.

That said, Boons and Curses in relation to Feruchemy doesn't really fit in, since Feruchemy isn't of any shard in particular, so maybe not. 

At the very least, that's how I think of the magic systems of Roshar.

 

The whole end-negative for hemalurgy, end positive for allomancy, end neutral for feruchemy thing probably wasn't a fundamental of how magic systems ought to work. Simply, these were reflections of the shardic intents that powered the magic systems (hemalurgy is end negative because ruin is destructive, et cetera). So there is no particular reason why magic systems on Roshar should follow the same convention, though it isn't impossible that they do. It is also possible that odium's magic system would be end positive.

 

It would also do to consider the fact that allomancy doesn't in fact involve taking any investiture into yourself, just channeling preservation's investiture. So it actually isn't quite the same sort of thing as surgebinding. Surgebinding technically isn't even end positive.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Surgebinding technically isn't even end positive.

 

You take in external investiture, you shape it into an effect (i.e. you've gained something), no personal resources have been expended, how is that not end-positive?