Tien

[pfranklin51]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but is it possible that Tien had Down Syndrome? His size, facial features, and his perpetual naivete all seem to point in this direction. Thoughts?

[natc]

Depends on whether that species of human is even capable of having that disorder in the first place.

[Yata he/him]

I don't think.

 

If he had some serious deficit, I don't think that Roshone may send him to war.

And Amaram itself wouldn't take him (remember that Amaram tried hard to build an "honorable face" on Roshar).

[pfranklin51]

I don't think.

If he had some serious deficit, I don't think that Roshone may send him to war.

And Amaram itself wouldn't take him (remember that Amaram tried hard to build an "honorable face" on Roshar).

But Amaram IS reluctant to take him. It's only after Roshone keeps whining that he agrees (after explaining to Lirin that they can't afford to turn anyone away from service), and even then says he won't send him out into combat for a few years.

If he had only been small, I don't think Amaram would have been so hesitant to take him.

[DreamEternal]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but is it possible that Tien had Down Syndrome? His size, facial features, and his perpetual naivete all seem to point in this direction. Thoughts?

His facial features are barely described, his father short, so it makes sense for him to be small for his age, and his naivete can be just part of his personality and young age.

For me it seems you are pulling at straws to make things fit.

Edited January 17, 2016 by DreamEternal

[JosephOfHathsin he/him]

I could imagine this going either way, maybe no ones ever discovered Down syndrome. Maybe they just call it being simple. Personally I like to think Tien was a dormant radiant like Kaladin but he was a little more natural at it, maybe a truthwatcher? Interesting side note the only Truthwatcher we know, Renarin, has been confirmed by Sanderson to be slightly on 'The Autism Spectrum'.

[NightmanCometh]

From one of the WoB:

Q:  [Not sure on this] Is there something important about the stone, and the girl that's missing that has to do kind of with the stone, and how Tien gives him rocks?

A:  Some of that you're reading too much into, but something is real.  I'm not going to tell you what is what.  But there's definitely something about that

Awkwardly phrased question aside, Brandon says that there is something to this question. The part I think he was talking about was Tien with the rocks, which stood out to me to begin with. I think there definitely was something special or different about tien having to do with rocks or stone, but don't think it was down syndrome or anything like that.

[NE Windrunner he/him]

Just something I was wondering on the whole Tien topic. I'm listening to WOK and I notice that Michael Kramer's voice for Tien is pretty much the exact same voice he uses for Syl...I'm not suggesting they are the same being or anything like that but I'm wondering if there is some sort of connection? I'm pretty sure that Syl states that she doesn't remember anything before seeing Kal in Amaram's army (no source info, sorry!)  but I'm not sure if the time periods overlap at all.

 

Any theories/insight? Of course this is probably just a coincidence but you never know!

Edited February 4, 2016 by NE Windrunner

[JosephOfHathsin he/him]

I have a theory (with no real evidence lol) that nahelbond spren are created by fragments of someone's soul when they die. In turn maybe Syl is somehow powered by Tiens soul/spirit.

On a side note, Storms! How bout that Michael Kramer huh!? Lol I read WoK before listening to Michael Kramers narration of Mistborn WoA, after which I had the immediate urge to listen to WoK, and even WoR before getting the chance to actually read it. By Damnation, I think he should be Sandersons official Narrator of all his Cosmere books lol

[Yata he/him]

I have a theory (with no real evidence lol) that nahelbond spren are created by fragments of someone's soul when they die. In turn maybe Syl is somehow powered by Tiens soul/spirit.

Syl is ancient, she was already bond with anothers KR (at least one) and she remembers  to have helped men to kill.

 

The Spren are Splinter, piece of Shard's power who gained Sentience.

There are being like the one who you described, they are called Cognitive Shadow and they are quite the ghost of someone who for some reason didn't reach the "far place beyond the realms" like a Soul normally does.

They may be called "Human's Spren" and stay in the Cognitive Realm, but they aren't the ones who bond with a Human to give birth to a RK.

[NE Windrunner he/him]

I definitely agree that Syl is ancient and existed long before Tien was in the picture but I feel like we don't really understand the method that spren are using to "return" to the physical realm. All the spren that we are intimately familiar with at this point (Syl and Pattern as these are the only ones we have gotten a good view of, I guess Wyndel to a lesser extent) have had a specific person as their objective.

 

I think there may be a connection with a deceased person's cognitive shadow and the method in which the spren then comes to the physical plane. Obviously I have no evidence to support this as Tien is the only character that we have seen that this could apply to but I find it hard to believe that a spren just pops into the physical realm, looks around and says "that looks like a good person to bond with" and that's that. There has to be some sort of event or connection in the cognitive realm that compels the spren to find specific individuals to bond.

[DreamEternal]

As far as I am aware, it is a matter of compatibility. I believe the spren seeks to bond someone not only because that person makes a good Knight for said order, but because of the capacity to form a deep connection with said Knight.

If Syl was drawn to the human who could connect with her more deeply, it could explain some of the apparent similarities between Tien and Syl.

[NE Windrunner he/him]

This is probably correct but I think it would be awesome to see ghost Tien giving ghost Kelsier little spirit rocks to cheer him up

[11thorderknight]

The thing about Tien and stones is that he was a proto-Lightweaver, with sculpting as his art form. There's an instance of him carving an incredibly realistic horse from a piece of wood, and he was probably doing something similar with stones in whatever scene that was from. Kaladin mentions over and over how Tien provided "the light" for their family, in much the same way that Shallan did with hers. It's somewhat subtle, but not that subtle. Brandon has even stated in a Q&A that "Kaladin has known two Lightweavers".

 

From one of the WoB:
Q:  [Not sure on this] Is there something important about the stone, and the girl that's missing that has to do kind of with the stone, and how Tien gives him rocks?
A:  Some of that you're reading too much into, but something is real.  I'm not going to tell you what is what.  But there's definitely something about that

Awkwardly phrased question aside, Brandon says that there is something to this question. The part I think he was talking about was Tien with the rocks, which stood out to me to begin with. I think there definitely was something special or different about tien having to do with rocks or stone, but don't think it was down syndrome or anything like that.

[Guest]

Had Tien been a Lightweaver, he would have likely not died on the battle field. There is also the fact Pattern states he was the only one of his order who was send which may or may not be true. 

 

We have to be careful with WoB: they often don't mean what we think they mean. Tien being a Lightweaver is too "plot convenient". There are reasons why many Kholins are Radiants, but Tien wouldn't make sense, not in a world where Radiant sprens can still be counted on the fingers of a hand.

 

That's bound to change, but 4 years ago, when Tien died, there are, at most 4-5 sprens actively trying to bound individuals.

[NE Windrunner he/him]

Hmmmm very interesting ideas here, I think if Tien were even proto radiant though that there would be a bit more evidence in the manifestation of stormlight although I could be wrong. I also think that Tarah could potentially be the other light weaver but that is, of course, complete speculation.

[DreamEternal]

Had Tien been a Lightweaver, he would have likely not died on the battle field.

Why not? If Kaladin had his skull cracked by Bluth, or whatever that mercenary was called, after Syl started to follow him but before they spoke, then what would keep him from dying?

[Guest]

Why not? If Kaladin had his skull cracked by Bluth, or whatever that mercenary was called, after Syl started to follow him but before they spoke, then what would keep him from dying?

.

Had Tien been advanced enough to be referred to as a Lightweaver, then he would have needed to have spoken oaths, truths. In this case, a mere spear into the gut wouldn't have killed him so easily. Tien was a soldier with a pay, not a slave: it seems unlikely he wouldn't have had any stormlight on him. Besides, had he progress enough to speak oaths/truths, he would have gathered stormlight is useful.

 

In any advent, I doubt Tien could have been a Lightweaver.

 

In the example you brought forward, I would say Kaladin wasn't yet a Windrunner nor could he be referred to as such. Having Brandon state Kaladin had met two Lightweavers, I assume he meant two real Lightweavers, not Shallan and Tien barely starting to be followed by a spren. 

[DreamEternal]

@maxal: I guess we have different opinions on how strong the bond needs to be for him to be called a Lightweaver.

[Guest]

@maxal: I guess we have different opinions on how strong the bond needs to be for him to be called a Lightweaver.

 

I think what matters here is not our personal impressions but the author.... How advanced does an individual need to be for the author to refer to him as a Lightweaver via a WoB? 

 

That's the true question... I tend to believe Kaladin, within his slaving cart, wasn't advanced enough to be referred to as a Windrunner, hence my perception, but you are right in pointing it out it may not be the appropriate one.

 

So who would Brandon refer to as a Lightweaver?

 

There are a lot of arguments against Tien being a Lightweaver and only two for, the fact he carved a horse and he made Kaladin happy. Those a tenuous at best as they don't mean anything concrete.

 

I'd say there are more cons than pros right now.

[Rasarr she/her]

Regarding Kaladin and two Lightweavers WoB... Wouldn't the second one be Wit? The Ars Arcanum even explicitely refers to Yolanian art of illusion as Lightweaving, noting its similarities to Rosharan Lightweaving, so could it simply be that Kaladin's two Lightweavers are Shallan and Wit?

[DreamEternal]

Regarding Kaladin and two Lightweavers WoB... Wouldn't the second one be Wit? The Ars Arcanum even explicitely refers to Yolanian art of illusion as Lightweaving, noting its similarities to Rosharan Lightweaving, so could it simply be that Kaladin's two Lightweavers are Shallan and Wit?

Well pointed out. Still more boring than the other assumption, but I suppose it is more likely.

[ARARITA he/him]

i was reading through these wondering if anyone realized the obvious lol - Hoid and Shallan... 

I think the only other possibility might be Sizgil - not that we have seen any magic but he is a Worldsinger taught by Hoid

[NE Windrunner he/him]

So I have one question about he whole "Hoid is the second lightweaver" thing. It's probably totally true but is it correct to consider Hoid a "lightweaver"? Yes he can use the surge of illusion and transportation but Hoif is kind of a special case I would think in order to be considered a lightweaver you would have had to have bonded a cryptic and said the first ideal along with a couple of truths (Szeth isn't considered a Windrunner just because he can use the surges right?) Is there any evidence that Hoid has bonded a cryptic or any spren or is he able to use investiture on Roshar in a different way? While I'm on the topic, I have he same question about Zahel (Vasher) Brandon said that he moved to Roshar in order to obtain something that is easier to get on Roshar rather than Nalthis.

Or am I just grasping at straws?

Edited February 13, 2016 by NE Windrunner

[DreamEternal]

So I have one question about he whole "Hoid is the second lightweaver" thing. It's probably totally true but is it correct to consider Hoid a "lightweaver"? Yes he can use the surge of illusion and transportation but Hoif is kind of a special case I would think in order to be considered a lightweaver you would have had to have bonded a cryptic and said the first ideal along with a couple of truths (Szeth isn't considered a Windrunner just because he can use the surges right?) Is there any evidence that Hoid has bonded a cryptic or any spren or is he able to use investiture on Roshar in a different way? While I'm on the topic, I have he same question about Zahel (Vasher) Brandon said that he moved to Roshar in order to obtain something that is easier to get on Roshar rather than Nalthis.

Or am I just grasping at straws?

The problem is that we have two magics with the same name. Hoid can use Yolish Lightweaving, that as far as we know works like the surge of Illumination, but he is not a KR of the Order of the Lightweavers.

If we ignore that his magic is called Lightweaving, and take the KR Order as the "official Lightweavers", which is a dubious assumption, since they came much later, then Hoid is as much of a Lightweaver as Renarin is.

Edited February 13, 2016 by DreamEternal