Visibility if Nahel Spren

[Aether he/him]

The newly released chapter three of WoR showed Jasnah and Shallan being able to see each other's Spren. This seems to suggest that Surgebinders would be able to see other Surgebinder's bonded Spren. But then, in chapter five, Kaladin is quite openly talking to Syl (other then her being invisible n' all). Now, why didn't Elhokar see this? Did he just not notice? Elhokar is an oblivious idiot at times, but he isn't blind so I doubt it.

After considering the scenario, I've come up with the following possibilities:

• Surgebinders can see other Nahel Spren, but only from adjacent orders. Windrunners can see Skybreaker and Order Ten Spren, but not Edgedancer or Stoneward. Lightweavers can see Elsecaller and Order Four, but not Windrunner, etc.
  .
• Surgebinders can see bonded Nahel Spren, and potential Surgebinder has not yet been granted "Nahelvision". Elhokar has not yet officially bonded a Cryptic, and thus does not yet have the ability to see Syl, and by the same logic, Kaladin cannot yet see his Cryptic(s). Shallan only really bonded her Cryptic just before seeing Ivory for the first time, so that counts in this hypothesis' favour.
  .
• Elhokar really is an oblivious idiot.

I am personally in favour of the second suggestion, if only because it opens up the exiting possibility of Shallan and Jasnah knowing what Kaladin is the second they see him for the first time, and Dalinar as well when he officially bonds his Spren, as I believe with the rest of you lot that he is about to do.

 

EDIT: Grammar.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Aether

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

I agree that the second suggestion is the most likely. It's note worthy that Ivory seemed shocked that Shallan could see him when she opened the door. Probably because he had been around all along and she was unable to see him up until that point.

 

Though Elhokar is an oblivious idiot regardless.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig

[duladen he/him]

I like the second one as well. Although I agree with the third statement regardless Great theory! So how does Rock see Syl?

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

Well if Lift can interact with Wyndle because she is partially in the Cognitive realm. Perhaps Rock can see Syl because he is also partially in the cognitive realm.

 

I remember hearing somewhere, not sure if it was WoB or in book, that spren like Syl can reveal themselves to people but it takes a lot of effort on their part to do so. I assume this is because the spren have to 'push' themselves further into the physical realm in order for regular people to see them.

[Meg]

I only remember the scene when Rock says that he sees Syl:

“Besides, there is mafah’liki who always follows you.” The large Horneater bowed his head reverently to Syl, then made a strange gesture with his hand touching his shoulders and then his forehead.

Kaladin started. “You can see her?” He glanced at Syl. As a windspren, she could appear to those she wanted to—and that generally only meant Kaladin.

Syl seemed shocked. No, she hadn’t appeared to Rock specifically.

TWoK Chapter 21

I don't know in mind whether there is WoB that says it has to do with the Realms.

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

The bit about the realms was just me speculating. I remember something somewhere about it taking an effort on their part to appear to poeple who couldn't see them. but frankly i'm starting to think i imagined it.

[Meg]

The bit about the realms was just me speculating. I remember something somewhere about it taking an effort on their part to appear to poeple who couldn't see them. but frankly i'm starting to think i imagined it.

If you have read the Lift-Interlude I can relieve your mind. If you didn't, I don't know ...

Spoiler from the Lift-Interlude:

“They can’t see me,” Wyndle said, growing up beside her to create another line of handholds, “because I exist mostly in the Cognitive Realm, even though I’ve moved my consciousness to this Realm. I can make myself visible to anyone, should I desire, though it’s not easy for me. Other spren are more skilled at it, while some have the opposite trouble. Of course, no matter how I manifest, nobody can touch me, as I barely have any substance in this Realm.”

I'm sorry, I'm yet stuck with TWoK but when you said, you remembered something like this, I was reminded of Wyndle. So I didn't remember it when I did my previous posting.

[Arook he/him]

What if it takes effort for ivory to hide and he just had forgot to hide himself from her.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Arook

[Colby Jack he/him]

Reading posts like these, I'm going to laugh really hard if Elhokar turns out to be some sort of chessmaster character. I mean, Jasnah couldn't have inherited all the brains of the family, right?

Maybe Elhokar actually does have allies of his own that no one knows about... Hey, maybe it's Highprince Hatham! Maybe he just wanted to play the two biggest claimants to his throne against each other while he slowly and secretly accumulate power in the background. A man can dream, right?

Edited January 18, 2014 by Colby Jack

[Aether he/him]

It would be really cool if that was the case. Considering the fiasco with his saddle, though, where he accidentally implicated Dalinar in a supposed assassination attempt on himself, makes this seem extremely unlikely.

I do on the other hand feel like he should have the potential to become a real political beast, if he could only get over his paranoia. I would greatly appreciate if he could develop a a similar dynamic with Dalinar as the latter used to have with Gavilar, where one takes care of the political machinations and the other puts them into action as well as whipping opponents into place. A man can dream, wouldn't you agree? ^^)

[Colby Jack he/him]

Aye, Aye. Elhokar is ridicule so often, by people in his universe and ours, that it'll be so cool if he turns out to be a dark horse and blow everyone's mind with some awesomeness.

[Aether he/him]

Question: Do you guys and gals think that Jasnah and Shallan will immediately discover what Kaladin is? How will they react to his?

Or maybe even more importantly, how will Kaladin react to how two lighteyes he is supposed to protect suddenly know everything about his most intimate and private secret, and then most like them proceed to lecture him about it and order him to let them test him?

Edited January 18, 2014 by Aether

[Swimmingly he/him]

I think having Kaladin to listen to and even preempt his paranoia is going to let El calm the storming Damnation down and focus. He might even begin to feel that he can relax with someone else around who expects assassins to leap out of the shadows. Of course, if he starts Surgebinding they may show up instead...out of the Darkness.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Question: Do you guys and gals think that Jasnah and Shallan will immediately discover what Kaladin is? How will they react to his?

Or maybe even more importantly, how will Kaladin react to how two lighteyes he is supposed to protect suddenly know everything about his most intimate and private secret, and then most like them proceed to lecture him about it and order him to let them test him?

I think he may conclude their own similar secrets and threaten to reveal them. I can definetly see Jasnah going for some offensive Soulcasting here, only to have it fail on Kal due to him investing himself with Stormlight. Kal doesn't realize the full impact of what she just tried, and Shallan either goes badass and pulls her Shardblade or Shallan/Jasnah calms everyone down with logic and calmheadedness.

[Colby Jack he/him]

Wait what? A man bossed around by women? Pfft! That'll never happen!

More seriously, I don't think Jasnah and Shallan will find out about his powers too early. Of course, I also didn't think Kaladin would just reveal his powers in front of everyone like he did and even provide them with a neat explanation afterward... So with luck like mine, the revelation will probably happen the moment they arrive in the Shattered Plains. I can see some serious hijinks happen if that were the case. If Kaladin and Shallan doesn't happen, I would still expect people shipping Sigzil and Jasnah within the day.
 

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

@Meg Yes! That was it! Up-vote for you.

 

I think this explains the issue of who can see what Spren. I theorize that when a Surge-binder bonds with their Spren, the Spren is 'pulled' slightly into the Physical Realm (PR), and the Surge-binder is 'pulled' slightly into the Cognitive realm (CR).

 

- The affect of the bonded Spren getting pulled into the PR would allow them to act and think more easily in the PR. But the cross-over is a likely cause of the 'dumb-period' we've witnessed in Spren.

 

- In the Case of the Surge-binder. Getting pulled into the CR would allow them to see certain Spren who exist mostly outside the PR, as they are more closely 'aligned' with them. I theorize that it is also what enables Surge-binding abilities, particularly in the cause of Soul-casting, which is reliant on access to the CR.

 

Essentially the Nahel bond is a symbiotic one, acting as a conduit for both Spren and Surge-binder to effect realms they do not normally exist in.

 

- I suspect individuals like rock naturally exist partially in the CR for some as yet unexplained reason. This would allow them to see Spren not normally visible.

And for Lift she exists far enough into the CR that she can actually 'touch' Wyndle.

 

I call this Lipwig's Theory of Cross-over.

 

Now. As for Elhokar, it would get quite tedious if he continues to act like this for the remainder of the series. However, I think his paranoia is going to stop when he finally finds out what's happening to him. And with Dalinar, and Kaladin around him to provide guidance and role-models, we'll see him grow into a much better man and king over the series. I would quite like to see Kaladin take him under his wing.

 

@Aether I think by the time Jasnah and Shallan get to the Shattered plains, Kaladin will have already revealed his powers to Dalinar. We'll then get a scene where we have both Dalinar and Kaladin going "What! You two are Surgebinders!?" while Jasnah and Shallan simultaneously go "Wait. You two are as well!?"

 

Sorry for the long post.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig

[Morsk he/him]

Or maybe even more importantly, how will Kaladin react to how two lighteyes he is supposed to protect suddenly know everything about his most intimate and private secret, and then most like them proceed to lecture him about it and order him to let them test him?

I think Jasnah has too much sense to alienate him. Kaladin is a huge resource to her family. We've seen she can treat Liss with respect, so she should be at least as cautious with Kaladin.

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

Or maybe even more importantly, how will Kaladin react to two lighteyes he is supposed to protect suddenly know everything about his most intimate and private secret, and then most like them proceed to lecture him about it and order him to let them test him?

Wow that just gave me some WoT flashbacks. Please don't let any aes sedai find out about kaladin.

[Unknowingly he/him]

I think that Spren can reveal themselves to whoever, as we see Syl do quite often. So I propose that Jasnah was busy speaking with Ivory and that when Jasnah opened the door he would have made himself invisible to Shallan, but Shallan took him by suprise and he disappeared as quickly as he could. Shallan's Spren has been forced into the physical and in its weakend state it will not be able to make itself invisible to others until it gains some sentience. In conclusion I say that, when Shallan and Jasnah arrive on the Shattered Plains they will not be able to note anything special about Kaladin. Shallans spren will avoid him because of the animosity between Honour Spren and Cryptics but wont be able to articulate why he doesn't like Kaladin. Ivory might be able to see Syl and will probably talk to Jasnah about it, but Jasnah herself will not be able to see Syl unless she wants to be seen 

[Aether he/him]

Given the new Shallan chapter, it seems that there is a fourth option:

• There are inherent differences to the different type of Nahel Spren. Syl is invisible to most people unless she wants to be seen, Wyndle the same, but Cryptics (given how Pattern behaves) seem to be visible to everyone, even non-surgebinders.

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

 

Given the new Shallan chapter, it seems that there is a fourth option:

• There are inherent differences to the different type of Nahel Spren. Syl is invisible to most people unless she wants to be seen, Wyndle the same, but Cryptics (given how Pattern behaves) seem to be visible to everyone, even non-surgebinders.

 

I'm still undecided on whether this means Cryptics are unable to make themselves invisible. Here is the quote from the new chapters

 

he didn’t respond to her suggestions that he stay out of their sight

 

There is no mention of him being unable to. It may simply be that he is unwilling to, or that for some reason he is unable to at this point in time. Perhaps when he has spent longer with Shallan and regains his faculties he will decide to turn invisible. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see on this one.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig

[Aether he/him]

There is no mention of him being unable to. It may simply be that he is unwilling to, or that for some reason he is unable to at this point in time. Perhaps when he has spent longer in the with Shallan and regains his faculties he will decide to turn invisible. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see on this one.

I wouldn't say he is unable to make himself invisible, but it seems like Pattern's "visibility" is the default, just as "invisibility" is Syl's. Consider this quote from Wyndle:

“They can't see me,” Wyndle said, growing up beside her to create another line of handholds, “because I exist mostly in the Cognitive Realm, even though I've moved my consciousness to this Realm. I can make myself visible to anyone, should I desire, though it's not easy for me. Other spren are more skilled at it, while some have the opposite trouble. (...)"

- From Lift's Interlude of the Words of Radiance. (my italic and bold lettering)

I thought these differences applied mostly to Spren in general, but it seems like there is more diversity between Nahel Spren than I originally thought.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Aether

[don_karma_II he/him]

So there is a possibility that the cryptic that Elokhar sees need not bond with him? As they seem to be visible to almost everyone.

[Aether he/him]

He seems to imply that he sees several of them, just as Shallan did in the beginning. This would imply that he has not yet "officially" bonded one of them, and one of them has then yet to cross over to the Physical Realm.

[Bremen]

 

he didn’t respond to her suggestions that he stay out of their sight

 

 

There is no mention of him being unable to. It may simply be that he is unwilling to, or that for some reason he is unable to at this point in time. Perhaps when he has spent longer with Shallan and regains his faculties he will decide to turn invisible. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see on this one.

This is from Shallan's POV.  I doubt she even realizes he could appear to some people and not others.  Most likely she just wants him to stay in her sleeve or something.