[Speculations] Oathpact & Recreance

[stonedshaman]

Here are Syl's words:

“I’m not sure.” [Kaladin] turned around, still standing, and rested his back against the bars. “I might need to. Breaking out would be against the law, though.”

[syl] lifted her chin. “I’m no highspren. Laws don’t matter; what’s right matters.”

This is very very specific and heavily implies that the highspren care strongly about laws. Given the Skybreaker's Second Ideal is "I will put the law before all else", and the highspren are seemingly very intelligent (as Jasnah sought them out for information), the heavy implication (but not quite proof) is that they were the Skybreaker's spren.

You're right that it might refer to a type of spren, like Nahel-bonding spren, but I don't agree with that as being very likely. When we see the compound word "xspren", it doesn't refer to a category of spren, but a unique species of spren in every single instance I can think of. For similar reasons, I disagree with the term "godspren" and I think it is super misleading as it breaks the naming convention.

[Moogle]

Do we know who the other godspren are? What other godspren exist?

I dislike the use of the term godspren, but we do know the Nightwatcher is unto Cultivation what the Stormfather is unto Honor, or at least she's very similar to that. Others have theorized that Cucicesh might be at a similar level.

I vehemently disagree with the theory that Bondsmiths bonded the Nightwatcher or Cucicesh, however.

[stonedshaman]

Hey were does it state/where did you find the second skybreaker oath?

Edit: sorry about the random quote im still trying to figure this place out

Edited January 8, 2016 by stonedshaman

[Moogle]

Hey were does it state/where did you find the second skybreaker oath?

It came from a personalized book. If you click the link from my post highlighting the Ideal, you can see the source.

[stonedshaman]

Right on. Thanks moogle

[Yata he/him]

I dislike the use of the term godspren, but we do know the Nightwatcher is unto Cultivation what the Stormfather is unto Honor, or at least she's very similar to that. Others have theorized that Cucicesh might be at a similar level.

I vehemently disagree with the theory that Bondsmiths bonded the Nightwatcher or Cucicesh, however.

I was a fan of the Stormfather-Nightwatch-Cucicesh as Bondsmith's Spren.

But recently I understand how much "unique" a Being like the Stormfather is.

He is probably an Adonalsium-Spren (Rider of the Storm) merged is some way with Tanavast's Shadow.

At the moment I find very unlikely that other Stormfather-like Spren exist on Roshar (unless the Bondsmith may bond simply with smart Adonalsium-Spren).

[Moogle]

But recently I understand how much "unique" a Being like the Stormfather is.

He is probably an Adonalsium-Spren (Rider of the Storm) merged is some way with Tanavast's Shadow.

At the moment I find very unlikely that other Stormfather-like Spren exist on Roshar (unless the Bondsmith may bond simply with smart Adonalsium-Spren).

 

I agree. This line of thinking leads me to support the theory that all Bondsmiths bonded the Stormfather alone, and that he could support multiple bonds due to his great power.

[DreamEternal]

Do we know who the other godspren are? What other godspren exist?

We don't even know if there is such a thing. It comes from especific interpretation of the Bondsmith epigraph. The theory is that any greater spren, like the Nightwatcher or Cusiceh, can make a Bondsmith.

In my opinion, it is more likely that all Bondsmiths bonded the Stormfather, and while he was abke to survive the oathbreaking due to his great power he was gravely wounded, and another broken bond may be enough to destroy him.

[Yata he/him]

I agree. This line of thinking leads me to support the theory that all Bondsmiths bonded the Stormfather alone, and that he could support multiple bonds due to his great power.

But also this possibility has problems, of example if the Stormfather is the only Spren of the whole Bondsmith Order, this mean that He suffered from multiple Oath-breaking (possible three only during the Recreance). I know, He is powerfull but I find unlikely that he may survived to all this.

 

Much more something in the timeline of the Recreance and of the Stormfather existence seems a bit strange, but I can't explain exactly what's wrong with them  .

[DreamEternal]

But also this possibility has problems, of example if the Stormfather is the only Spren of the whole Bondsmith Order, this mean that He suffered from multiple Oath-breaking (possible three only during the Recreance). I know, He is powerfull but I find unlikely that he may survived to all this.

Who knows? It can be argued, however, that he didn't get off unharmed. In fact, Syl says he is broken, and it makes his attitudes towards humans and willingness to simply summon a Highstorm at the worst possible moment more explainable if not only his children got all killed by humans, but he also had part of his brain torn apart.

[Moogle]

But also this possibility has problems, of example if the Stormfather is the only Spren of the whole Bondsmith Order, this mean that He suffered from multiple Oath-breaking (possible three only during the Recreance). I know, He is powerfull but I find unlikely that he may survived to all this.

 

Much more something in the timeline of the Recreance and of the Stormfather existence seems a bit strange, but I can't explain exactly what's wrong with them  .

 

The Stormfather isn't quite a spren (he's a Cognitive Shadow, for all the fact that he was the Rider of Storms), and never went to the Physical Realm (no need for him to depend on humans to keep on his mind). The only reason spren lose their minds is because they become dependent on their bondees. The Stormfather won't become a Shardblade, so presumably this protects his mind somehow.

 

The fact that the Stormfather can be on the other side of the world from Dalinar is another sign that the Bondsmith bond is quite different. Syl has a range limit. There is a WoB on that, but I cannot for the life of me find it. As the Stormfather puts it, though:

 

I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! the voice said, sounding angry. I AM THE STORMFATHER. I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME!

...

I WILL NOT BE A SIMPLE SWORD TO YOU, the Stormfather warned. I WILL NOT COME AS YOU CALL, AND YOU WILL HAVE TO DIVEST YOURSELF OF THAT . . . MONSTROSITY THAT YOU CARRY. YOU WILL BE A RADIANT WITH NO SHARDS.

 

As we see with Kaladin, Syl will only be permanently harmed by a broken oath when she becomes summonable as a Shardblade. If the Stormfather never did that for his Bondsmiths - and why would he, when he needs to tend to the storm? - I don't see there being much reason for him to die.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Moogle

[Yata he/him]

I understand your points (both Moogle and DreamEternal) and you may be right (I am not very sure, but I find possible).

 

Meanwhile I catch what about the Stormfather seems to me very, strange (but I don't know if is better to start a new Topic about):

 

If the Rider of the Storm became Stormfather at the death of Honor, mergind with his Cognitive's Shadow. And Tanavast's Death was very very after the KR's born. This mean that a the beginning the Bondsmith was bonding with the Rider of the Storm, if this is true that mean that also the other possible great Adonalsium-Spren may be possible Bondsmith Spren.

[DreamEternal]

If the Rider of the Storm became Stormfather at the death of Honor, mergind with his Cognitive's Shadow. And Tanavast's Death was very very after the KR's born. This mean that a the beginning the Bondsmith was bonding with the Rider of the Storm, if this is true that mean that also the other possible great Adonalsium-Spren may be possible Bondsmith Spren.

It is possible, but the Stormfather seems to be his own category, and be specifically connected to the overseeing of bonds:

When he appeared to Eshonai, like he appears to every Listener who changes forms, he expressed sorrow at being unable to save her, after asking her if that was really what she wanted and witnessing her transformation.

And in the two times we've seem a human speak an Oath with the explicit intent of (re)forming a bond, he said the words were accepted, even if relutantly.

He also forbid spren from bonding humans, and aparently held Syl back in the Cognitive Realm.

EDIT: Moogle: yet he was afraid Dalinar would be somehow able to kill him if they solified their bond.

You seem to assume a broken oath can only permanently harm a spren that was currently in shard form when it happened, but the Stormfather seems to disagree, if his worries about dying could be countered by refusing to be a sword.

Edited January 9, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Moogle]

EDIT: Moogle: yet he was afraid Dalinar would be somehow able to kill him if tgey solified their bond.

You seem to assume a broken oath van only permanently harm a spren that was currently in shard form when it happened, but the Stormfather seems to disagree, if his worries about dying could be countered by refusing to be a sword.

 

I don't think a spren has to be in Shard-form to "die". I believe as the bond increases, the spren is drawn more and more into the Physical - a place where we see they are mindless without a human to help them. When the bond breaks due to a broken oath, the spren is drawn too deeply in the Physical to return to Shadesmar, and without a mind has no chance of getting back there. And because they're so strongly in the Physical, they naturally go into Blade-form.

 

There's more to this - as WoB notes, part of their consciousness is ripped out of them with a broken oath too. Otherwise, "fixing" dead spren would be as easy as throwing them in a Shardpool and bringing them "back" to Shadesmar.

 

The Stormfather isn't drawn into the Physical, so I don't see this as a danger for him. Indeed, as he says to Dalinar, he will not become Shards for him. Becoming a Shardblade would require manifesting in the Physical very strongly.

 

But you're right, the Stormfather does seem worried about the possibility of dying. My interpretation is that he can avoid that by never appearing as a Shardblade, but I grant this could be wrong. Summoning a Shardblade seems a matter of will for the Radiant, so perhaps Dalinar can force the Stormfather to become a Shardblade and this is what the Stormfather fears.

 

I'm just very hesitant to take anything the Stormfather says at face value when he's a known liar and has every reason to not want Dalinar to know anything true. For example, telling Dalinar he won't appear as a Shardblade.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Moogle

[DreamEternal]

I wouldn't call the Stormfather a know liar. The only thing I remember him possibly lying about is Syl's death, for her own safety, but spren death when not locked as a shard is something very vague and different from normal death, so it is possible she was mostly dead for some time before being pulled into shadesmar.

EDIT: And I don't think a Radiant can force a spren to become a blade. If I read the Zahel fight scene right, Syl was abke to take Kaladin's powers away when he tried to use stormlight to fight Adolin out of spite.

Edited January 9, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Moogle]

I wouldn't call the Stormfather a know liar. The only thing I remember him possibly lying about is Syl's death, for her own safety, but spren death when not locked as a shard is something very vague and different from normal death, so it is possible she was mostly dead for some time before being pulled into shadesmar.

 

He explicitly told Kaladin nothing could fix Syl. He told Dalinar his super-dream was just a "simple dream". If he's not a liar, he's at least an untrustworthy source of information.

 

(Also, I edited my last post. Didn't expect such a fast response...)

 

EDIT: Just because Syl can control one end of the bond doesn't mean Kaladin can't in turn. At the vision of the Recreance, the Radiants all summoned their spren as Blades at once. I sincerely doubt that was a willing move on the spren's parts.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Moogle

[DreamEternal]

He explicitly told Kaladin nothing could fix Syl. He told Dalinar his super-dream was just a "simple dream". If he's not a liar, he's at least an untrustworthy source of information.

(Also, I edited my last post. Didn't expect such a fast response...)

Well, that depends on for how long Syl was dead and if it was Kaladin's newfound adderence to his old oaths that ressurected her or not, since a traitrous human reforming seems like unconcivable for the Stormfather.

But I agree, if he is not a liar his vision of reality is so twisted he is not that much more trustworth as Szeth in the heights of his insanity.

EDIT: If all Radiants decided to kill their spren unwillingly, then I'd expect the bond to break way sooner than it did. The fact they all had apparently previously planned to kill their spren, but the bond only broke in front of Feverstone Keep, makes me think the spren were involved in the planning.

Edited January 9, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Moogle]

EDIT: If all Radiants decided to kill their spren unwillingly, then I'd expect the bond to break way sooner than it did. The fact they all had apparently previously planned to kill their spren, but the bond only broke in front of Feverstone Keep, makes me think the spren were involved in the planning.

 

There's a WoB on this, though I'm afraid I can't find it. It was a matter of intent, from what I recall, in that the Radiants had to make a mental effort to sever the bond (like is necessary with a dead Shardblade). If anyone knows where this WoB is, I'd really appreciate it. It's driving me crazy.

[Garfield]

EDIT: If all Radiants decided to kill their spren unwillingly, then I'd expect the bond to break way sooner than it did. The fact they all had apparently previously planned to kill their spren, but the bond only broke in front of Feverstone Keep, makes me think the spren were involved in the planning.

 

 

I found that a bit odd too, when comparing the Recreance vision and the mechanics of Kaladin's bond-breaking.

 

Kaladin's bond broke once he had made two contradictory promises, one of them explicitly deciding not to protect someone worthy of his protection (Elhokar was not a harmful villain that needed to be removed but just incompetent and annoying, harming others not with intention but through his personal unsuitability as a king, so removing him from this office might be reasonable, but not outright killing him) The bond broke in Kaladin's mind the harmful intention formed and solidified, not with an official declaration of his intention to others.

 

So the spren of the old KRs should have died the moment, the human bondees had decided to abandon their duty. They shouldn t have been able to travel to that Keep as intact KRs and then lay down their armour and blades.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Garfield

[DreamEternal]

So the spren of the old KRs should have died the moment, the human bondees had decided to abandon their duty. They shouldn t have been able to travel to that Keep as intact KRs and then lay down their armour and blades.

Even if the bond breaking wasn't instant, couldn't the spren take away the Knights' stormlight? I mean, if Kaladin couldn't use it to teach Adolin a lesson, why could the Windrunners in the vision use it to fly?

And if something was able to convince the most honorable people in Roshar to condem their best friends, who are literaly bound to their souls, to an eternity of undead suffering, I think that unless it was done because of a betrayal on the spren part they would be convinced to die too.

The only thing that points strongly on the other direction is the survivors' vision of humans as traitours. But the survivors are the psychologically unstable Stormfather and those who weren't bond to any human at the time.

Edited January 9, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Moogle]

Oh, another idea on the Stormfather: a broken bond messes up your spren's consciousness. I wonder if the Stormfather didn't lose part of his mind, thus explaining his insanity.

[natc]

Well, technically Kaladin's powers remained at least barely functional enough to take in stormlight until he fell into the chasm (since that saved him), it's forcing them to work at that point that seemed to break it outright.

But there's really no way the Recreance can be organized without the spren knowing ahead of time, so they were likely imvolved.

[Garfield]

Well, technically Kaladin's powers remained at least barely functional enough to take in stormlight until he fell into the chasm (since that saved him), it's forcing them to work at that point that seemed to break it outright.

But there's really no way the Recreance can be organized without the spren knowing ahead of time, so they were likely imvolved.

 

 

It s not even clear what the human population did to piss off the Radiants. There was a lack of military discipline at the Keep, at that time, sure. That points to maybe the humans taking too little responsibility themselves, expecting the KRs to do everything for them.

 

On the other hand, after the last desolation, for unknown reasons the cycle of the desolations ended (at least for the time being) so the KRs were no longer needed.

 

 

BTW, one question came to my mind. Did KRs die of old age when they weren't killed in battle just as regular humans are? Shouldn't there be spren that had lost their human partners due to old age or battle rather than betrayal?

 

Do KRs become immortal or at least very very long lived through the bond and the healing abilities of stormlight? One would assume the aging caused by degradation of the gene material through cell division doesn t affect a human with access to stormlight healing as it does a normal human. So, where these KRs that broke their oath "newbies" that had never fought in a desolation or were they maybe really old and tired.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Garfield

[DreamEternal]

Oh, another idea on the Stormfather: a broken bond messes up your spren's consciousness. I wonder if the Stormfather didn't lose part of his mind, thus explaining his insanity.

I already posted that before on this same thread, I think.

That kind of permanent would also explain how he survived the first oathbreaking and yet fears he won't survive another. He was maimed, and a final blow is all it would take now.

[Moogle]

Found that WoB, and it's much less than I remember. Still, it supports the idea that it's basically the same thing as unbonding a dead Shardblade:
 

Q. And, how were the Radiants able to summon their Shardblades at the Recreance if they’d already decided to break their oaths?
A. Their Shardblades are part of what brought them to--part of the Oathpact--but breaking the Oathpact did not affect their ability to bond or unbond Shardblades.
(source)

 
I find it very unlikely the spren were in in on the Recreance, or supported it in any way. Betrayal is specifically mentioned:
Dalinar reached the Shardblades. They sprouted from the rock like glittering silver trees, a forest of weapons. They glowed softly in a way his own Shardblade never had, but as he dashed among them, their light started to fade. A terrible feeling struck him. A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal. Stopping where he stood, he gasped, hand to his chest. What was happening? What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he could almost hear?
 

---

 

BTW, one question came to my mind. Did KRs die of old age when they weren't killed in battle just as regular humans are? Shouldn't there be spren that had lost their human partners due to old age or battle rather than betrayal?

 
A human who died while staying true to their oaths did not cause their spren to die. (source)
 

---

While I'm at it, here's that other WoB:
 

Jerich ()
Is it possible then to reawaken a shard blade if that blade is wielded by someone who speaks the oaths of a Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson ()
(Thinking)...Yes, but it would be extremely difficult.  The spren in a shardblade are not trapped in a state of mid-transformation like the Elantrians.  They are stuck in an agony cycle after having a significant portion of their consciousnesses ripped out of them.  The Nahel bond is what allows Spren to think on material plane and that has been torn away.  It would be like having a data jack installed and then having someone come up to your head and rip it out of your head.
(source)