[Speculations] Oathpact & Recreance

[Rhaegar'Elin he/him]

I was thinking on the Oathpact and the Recreance for a while and I came up with this speculation: I don't know if what follows was already pointed out but I would like to read what do you think about it (though it's very far-fetched in some points and has few gaps).

 

---

 

On the Oathpact, I think we can assume it's a pact between Honor and the Heralds. Tanavast gave them Honorblades and (maybe) immortality while the Heralds had at least two duties:

1) leading humans during Desolations;

2) keeping Odium at bay (trough suffering a lot of pain) between Desolations.

 

I think duty #2 is "possible" according to the following quotes:

- In the Prelude, Kalak says:

 

“He will not remain bound by this. The enemy. He will find a way around it. You know he will.”

 

- In Talenel Interlude, Taln thinks:

 

Of fires that burned and yet they were gone. Of heat he could feel when others felt not. Of screams his own that nobody heard. Of torture sublime, for life it meant.

 

- In the Second Letter it's said:

 

Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited.

 

So I think the Heralds talk of "torture" in a figurative sense: they suffer trying to hold Odium captive.

When the Heralds can no more bear the pain, they return to Roshar (preparing humanity for the Desolation) while Odium regains his strength.

Perhaps it's very arguable how the Heralds could keep a Shardholder captive (though suffering Hell) but maybe Honor lends each of them a fraction of his power while they are in Damnation. I don't know but let's pretend it's possible.

 

After Aharietiam, the Oathpact is still valid and Odium is kept captive by Talenel.

But, with only one Herald holding him, Odium had much more freedom than before.

Now, I don’t know if in this condition Odium could flee from Damnation or if simply Taln withdrew from his duty but I think that, during the time of Recreance, Rayse freed himself and used this opportunity to kill Honor (maybe weakened from lending too much power to Talenel, in order to help him in keeping Odium at bay alone).

 

After killing Tanavast, I believe Rayse had no much strength for fighting a Desolation but he tried anyway to further weaken mankind defense. He confronted the Radiants on the treachery of the Heralds and the possibility of fighting without their lead (likely meaning being destroyed by the Voidbringers).

But Odium offered a treat: there would be no Desolation if the Knights Radiant gave up their positions. So the Radiants accepted and broke their oaths wile Rayse returned to Damnation, waiting for his opportunity (striking when men weren’t defended by Heralds or Radiants and Surgebinding was forgotten).

I don’t exclude that (in this speculation) the death of Honor, that perhaps weakened the Nahel Bonds of the Radiants, had a part in their decision of stepping back. 

 

Now, in WoR it's said that only nine Orders out of the ten broke their oaths:

 

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.

 

I think that the latters are the Skybreakers: probably they are trying (from the Recreance until now) to kill other Surgebinders in order to keep the 'treat' with Odium and avoiding a new Desolation.

 

The Order that didn't break his oaths could also have been that of the Bondsmiths: they (and their squires, because there were very few members) could have become Ardents and tried to unite Roshar in Vorinism trough the Hierocracy (against the threat of Odium). But I like the idea of the Skybreakers better.

 

Thanks for reading until the end XD

Sorry if my English was bad: it's not my native language.

[Oversleep]

The one Order who stayed tru to their oaths could be Stonewardens. "I will stand when others fall" indeed. It would also nicely reflect that their patron was the only Herald who was fulfilling the Oathpact.

[DreamEternal]

It also could have been the Truthwatchers if we accept the Hierocracy's visions as real, although there may be better candidates.

[Stormgate he/him]

I think that we will have a better idea once we learn what exactly caused the orders to fall. We still have little idea.

[Moogle]

Allow me to get on (or stay on, as I have a hard time resisting the chance to promote the theory) the Skybreakers-didn't-break train.

 

If there's one order you'd expect to never break their oaths, the order concerned with rules and legality over "typical" morality would be the first place I'd look. Nalan probably went back for his Blade, and he was the ideal Skybreaker in some sense.

 

Almost all bonded spren died, as Pattern says. However, Jasnah goes to the highspren (all-but-confirmed to be the Skybreaker's spren) and learns lots from them about the past. This implies most of the highspren did not die, ie. the Skybreakers did not participate in the Recreance.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

The one Order who stayed true to their oaths could be Stonewardens. "I will stand when others fall" indeed. It would also nicely reflect that their patron was the only Herald who was fulfilling the Oathpact.

 

On the other hand, the Radiants Dalinar witnessed abandoning their shards in his vision of the Recreance were confirmed to be Windrunners and Stonewardens IIRC.

[Oversleep]

On the other hand, the Radiants Dalinar witnessed abandoning their shards in his vision of the Recreance were confirmed to be Windrunners and Stonewardens IIRC.

You're right, it's in clearly stated in the book. Damnation.

I don't know about Skybreakers being the one order not to break the oaths - current Skybreakers with Nalan hunt Surgebinders. So what, they didn't betray, then reached out to Nalan or something and then he went full-on rampage on them?

[Stormgate he/him]

Have we seen evidence of any Surgebinding abilities in any organization that we know of? Besides the Knights Radiant, of course. We know that Nalan has Surgebinding, but are his 'squires' (can't think of a better word) Surgebinders or proto-Radiants?

[Pathfinder]

Allow me to get on (or stay on, as I have a hard time resisting the chance to promote the theory) the Skybreakers-didn't-break train.

 

If there's one order you'd expect to never break their oaths, the order concerned with rules and legality over "typical" morality would be the first place I'd look. Nalan probably went back for his Blade, and he was the ideal Skybreaker in some sense.

 

Almost all bonded spren died, as Pattern says. However, Jasnah goes to the highspren (all-but-confirmed to be the Skybreaker's spren) and learns lots from them about the past. This implies most of the highspren did not die, ie. the Skybreakers did not participate in the Recreance.

Highspren is a pretty generic classification. Aren't there other orders like the bondsmiths that also bond highspren?

[DreamEternal]

Have we seen evidence of any Surgebinding abilities in any organization that we know of? Besides the Knights Radiant, of course. We know that Nalan has Surgebinding, but are his 'squires' (can't think of a better word) Surgebinders or proto-Radiants?

Besides the Hierocracy's supposed visions, nothing that I know of.

[Oversleep]

Highspren is a pretty generic classification. Aren't there other orders like the bondsmiths that also bond highspren?

No, Bondsmiths bond godspren. Highspren is one of the types of spren, I don't understand your statement that's "a pretty generic classification".

[DreamEternal]

No, Bondsmiths bond godspren.

No, we know at least one of then, and possibly all, bond the Stormfather. The idea they have other spren is merely a popular supposition.

Edited January 7, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Pathfinder]

No, Bondsmiths bond godspren. Highspren is one of the types of spren, I don't understand your statement that's "a pretty generic classification".

Can you reference a point in the book, or a WoB that name him a "godspren"? He does claim he is both god and spren when talking to Dalinar, but that is in reference to being a cognitive shadow of Honor after he was killed. If that term was specified then great, i learned something new, but I do not recall seeing that anywhere. I have linked to the wiki where it lists the type of spren:

 

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Spren_Types

[DreamEternal]

Can you reference a point in the book, or a WoB that name him a "godspren"? He does claim he is both god and spren when talking to Dalinar, but that is in reference to being a cognitive shadow of Honor after he was killed. If that term was specified then great, i learned something new, but I do not recall seeing that anywhere. I have linked to the wiki where it lists the type of spren:

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Spren_Types

It is a category made by those who think the Nightwatcher and possibly Cusiceh are also Bondsmith sprens. Nothing official, or even likely in my opinion. Edited January 7, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Pathfinder]

It is a category made by those who think the Nightwatcher and possibly Cusiceh are also Bondsmith sprens. Nothing official, or even likely in my opinion.

Ah thank you for the information DreamEternal. So then to clarify for Oversleep, it was my understanding that highspren was the equivalency of class and breed. A doberman, dachshund, and terrier are all dogs, and yet they are different breeds. So there could be multiple types of highspren that bond different orders. At least that was my own understanding, which is why I stated to Moogle I felt that was a broad term, and asked him to confirm if I understood things correctly. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Oversleep]

Syl's words strongly imply that highspren bond with Skybreakers. Words of Radiance, chapter 59. Kaladin says that him escaping the prison would be against the law to which Syl replies that she is not a highspren and laws doesn't matter, only what's right matter.

[Pathfinder]

Syl's words strongly imply that highspren bond with Skybreakers. Words of Radiance, chapter 59. Kaladin says that him escaping the prison would be against the law to which Syl replies that she is not a highspren and laws doesn't matter, only what's right matter.

That is a good point, but is far from concrete. Elsecallers are stated to deal with "the great ones", does that automatically mean they bond highspren? I am just wary about stating highspren are skybreakers as fact, and especially using that to claim that that means the skybreakers did not break their oath. Theory? Sure. But not definite. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Pathfinder

[DreamEternal]

That is a good point, but is far from concrete. Elsecallers are stated to deal with "the great ones", does that automatically mean they bond highspren? I am just wary about stating highspren are skybreakers as fact, and especially using that to claim that that means the skybreakers did not break their oath. Theory? Sure. But not definite.

I took the Elsecaller quote as meaning they were transrealmatic diplomats, dealing with spren politics and their consequences for humanity.

[Pathfinder]

I took the Elsecaller quote as meaning they were transrealmatic diplomats, dealing with spren politics and their consequences for humanity.

I agree with you, but I was just pointing out given the information we have, it could be argued the other way too to show that the theory regarding the skybreakers although is well reasoned, I do not feel is conclusive. 

[Moogle]

Highspren is a pretty generic classification. Aren't there other orders like the bondsmiths that also bond highspren?

 

Here are Syl's words:

 

“I’m not sure.” [Kaladin] turned around, still standing, and rested his back against the bars. “I might need to. Breaking out would be against the law, though.”

[syl] lifted her chin. “I’m no highspren. Laws don’t matter; what’s right matters.”

This is very very specific and heavily implies that the highspren care strongly about laws. Given the Skybreaker's Second Ideal is "I will put the law before all else", and the highspren are seemingly very intelligent (as Jasnah sought them out for information), the heavy implication (but not quite proof) is that they were the Skybreaker's spren.

 

You're right that it might refer to a type of spren, like Nahel-bonding spren, but I don't agree with that as being very likely. When we see the compound word "xspren", it doesn't refer to a category of spren, but a unique species of spren in every single instance I can think of. For similar reasons, I disagree with the term "godspren" and I think it is super misleading as it breaks the naming convention.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Moogle

[Yata he/him]

Probably also the Bondsmith can't be the "mysterious Order" because is states that the Stormfather himself suffered the Oath-breaking but He survived.

[Pathfinder]

Here are Syl's words:

 

“I’m not sure.” [Kaladin] turned around, still standing, and rested his back against the bars. “I might need to. Breaking out would be against the law, though.”

[syl] lifted her chin. “I’m no highspren. Laws don’t matter; what’s right matters.”

This is very very specific and heavily implies that the highspren care strongly about laws. Given the Skybreaker's Second Ideal is "I will put the law before all else", and the highspren are seemingly very intelligent (as Jasnah sought them out for information), the heavy implication (but not quite proof) is that they were the Skybreaker's spren.

 

You're right that it might refer to a type of spren, like Nahel-bonding spren, but I don't agree with that as being very likely. When we see the compound word "xspren", it doesn't refer to a category of spren, but a unique species of spren in every single instance I can think of. For similar reasons, I disagree with the term "godspren" and I think it is super misleading as it breaks the naming convention.

Honestly, having the initial information before I read this thread and the information provided from this thread, I am inclined to agree with you. I just took exception to Oversleep's comment to me that he didn't understand how I could say it was a generic term from a group of spren. Storms, I could say that the stormfather holds to laws highly because he is the one that accepted the oaths of the most of the knights we saw. Do I myself believe that? No. I was merely trying to explain why I stated what I did regarding the highspren term, and I accomplished that. 

 

edit: also regarding your compound word comment. People do refer to "emotion spren" and "nature spren". Which encompass numerous types of spren such as anger spren, gloom spren, glory spren, gravity spren, and so on. (found in book, WoR kindle edition page 70 Jasnah is speaking ""As do I. I suspect, personally, that these groupings of spren - emotion spren versus nature spren - are where the ideas of mankind's primeval "gods" came from")

Edited January 8, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Garfield]

Probably also the Bondsmith can't be the "mysterious Order" because is states that the Stormfather himself suffered the Oath-breaking but He survived.

 

 

I was wondering that too, did the Bondsmiths kill their spren partners when they broke the oath? If I remember correctly, Stormfather mentioned that Dalinar breaking the bond would kill him.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Garfield

[Yata he/him]

I was wondering that too, did the Bondsmiths kill their spren partners when they broke the oath? If I remember correctly, Stormfather mentioned that Dalinar breaking the bond would kill him.

Breaking the Oath may kill the Godspren indeed. But we can't say if the other 2 are safe now.

As far as we know, it's possible that only a single Bondsmith was active at the time of Recreance and the Stormfather was the only victim.

Of course if the others GodSpren died Dalinar will be the only Bondsmith during the modern Desolation.

[Garfield]

Of course if the others GodSpren died Dalinar will be the only Bondsmith during the modern Desolation.

 

 

Do we know who the other godspren are? What other godspren exist?