Worldhopper babies?

[Zathoth]

Compounding Aons! What would happen if you tried to burn metal in shape of Aon or metal with Aon carved into it?!

As for where you were going with this, I assume you were going for maximal Investiture output. So Scadrian/Selish parents, to become Mistborn Elantrian, then get some Breaths and attract a spren and become Radiant.

Both Sel and Nalthis require to be born on the planet, but since Breaths can be given away, I picked being born on Sel.

Thanks for figuring that out for me XD

 

So you draw an aon in light on the Metal, swallow it, burn and weird stuff happens? Cool idea.

 

Or you could just be born on Yolen before the shattering

[skaa he/him]

I thought that referred to becoming a Returned, which does actively require Endowment's decision. The issue is that we don't know what Initiation means, and I'm uncomfortable with the assumption that it means gaining a Breath.

May I ask why you are uncomfortable with it? Whatever Initiation means, the gaining of Elantrian powers is one form of it. I don't see how the gaining of Awakening powers would somehow be in a different category.

 

Breath is a detachable part of your soul, and to make a soul you draw on Investiture - I see no reason for Endowment to be required to scan each and every baby and decide whether to grant their request for life. It seems like the same thing Preservation did - sacrifice a part of your power that any baby can use without your conscious assent.

Even then, Preservation must have consciously assented to begin that process of descent-based Initiation, because Initiation on other Shardworlds doesn't necessarily involve family descent, as the Elantris Ars Arcanum implied. The creation of Breaths at birth may or may not be automatic, but if it is then the rules of that automation would have been decided by Endowment. If she decided to let all children born on Nalthis, regardless of their parents' origins, gain BioChromatic Breath at birth, then that's how it will work. That was the point I was trying to make.

Edited December 30, 2015 by skaa

[Moogle]

May I ask why you are uncomfortable with it? Whatever Initiation means, the gaining of Elantrian powers is one form of it. I don't see how the gaining of Awakening powers would somehow be in a different category.

 

I'm uncomfortable with thinking we know what a word means before we have enough examples to properly extrapolate. Being an Elantrian is different than most magic systems and is more comparable to becoming a Herald or Returned than being an Awakener. Boring of me, but I prefer to be cautious on that sort of thing.

 

The Elantris annotation does mention Scadrial's stuff being tied to line of descent, which agrees with the idea of Initiation just being how you gain access to any magic system, but how does one Initiate a Hemalurgist?

 

Initiation seems to me, like other definitions the author of the Ars Arcanum has proposed like "end-neutral" to just be a human-made concept. Capitalizing might make it seem important and official, but I'm still hesitant on the whole idea.

 

Even then, Preservation must have consciously assented to begin that process of descent-based Initiation, because Initiation on other Shardworlds doesn't necessarily involve family descent, as the Elantris Ars Arcanum implied. The creation of Breaths at birth may or may not be automatic, but if it is then the rules of that automation would have been decided by Endowment. If she decided to let all children born on Nalthis, regardless of their parents' origins, gain BioChromatic Breath at birth, then that's how it will work. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

If your interpretation is correct, I have to ask: why does the Ars Arcanum author know Endowment set up such an automatic Decision? How did she come to that conclusion rather than just assume everyone on Nalthis is Initiated by default? It seems a stretch for her to come to that conclusion, but it seems very natural for her to be talking about Returned when she says that a Shard's Decision is involved.

 

In the case of the Returned, it seems rather more obvious that Endowment's hand is directly at work because of how Splinters are passed around.

[natc]

You bring up a good point. It could be Nalthis itself creating breaths due to Endowment's presence rather than anything she started manually. Most magic systems arise from realmatic interactions by themselves.

[skaa he/him]

You bring up a good point. It could be Nalthis itself creating breaths due to Endowment's presence rather than anything she started manually. Most magic systems arise from realmatic interactions by themselves.

Cool idea. If that is the case, then Worldhopper babies born on Nalthis will still gain BioChroma, as I proposed, because there is no reason for the Shardworld to distinguish between Nalthis-born people with local parents and Nalthis-born people with alien parents; both categories of people would have a connection to Nalthis through birth.

 

I'm uncomfortable with thinking we know what a word means before we have enough examples to properly extrapolate. Being an Elantrian is different than most magic systems and is more comparable to becoming a Herald or Returned than being an Awakener.

How about Mistings or Ferrings? They are apparently recipients of this mysterious Initiation as well, so does that make them "more comparable to becoming a Herald or Returned than being an Awakener"?

 

If your interpretation is correct, I have to ask: why does the Ars Arcanum author know Endowment set up such an automatic Decision? How did she come to that conclusion rather than just assume everyone on Nalthis is Initiated by default? It seems a stretch for her to come to that conclusion, but it seems very natural for her to be talking about Returned when she says that a Shard's Decision is involved.

In the case of the Returned, it seems rather more obvious that Endowment's hand is directly at work because of how Splinters are passed around.

It could be as simple as Khriss going through the following thought process:

• The Returned are obviously Initiated by Endowment directly ("Shard's Decision").
• Endowment is the only Shard on Nalthis.
• Shardworlds with a single Shard have only one type of Initiation (speculation, but let's assume it's true and that Khriss is aware of it).
• Everyone on Nalthis is Initiated via Shard's Decision.

In fact, the way she worded the Initiation section of the Elantris Ars Arcanum could be interpreted in a way that makes each Shardworld only have one type of Initiation no matter how many Shards it has, but that conclusion might be too hasty.

Or, I dunno, maybe she's aware of Worldhoppers who settled on Nalthis and had children with Breath, and concluded that Endowment herself chose to Initiate those children. Or she could have made the Shard's Decision conclusion via some other experiment involving Worldhoppers.

 

Initiation seems to me, like other definitions the author of the Ars Arcanum has proposed like "end-neutral" to just be a human-made concept. Capitalizing might make it seem important and official, but I'm still hesitant on the whole idea.

 

Maybe Khriss is wrong. Maybe Initiation is just a thing she made up. But we do not know that, so we are allowed to speculate as if she is totally correct until we get strong evidence that she's not.

Edited December 31, 2015 by skaa

[Stormgate he/him]

The only reason Sanderson would do that is if he is a sadistic author who loves watching us tackle every word like a pack of piranhas... okay you have a point.

[natc]

Well mistings and ferrings . . . odd case. Depends on how initiation is defined.

The two appear to be hardcoded into the spiritwebs of the entire population, or at least the parts necessary to use the ability. But nobody with misting blood is naturally invested enough by Preservation for the ability to actually function, and then you need to blow a hole in your soul to use as the path of entry for investiture.

Being a feruchemist is less troublesome, but it still seems to require a power threshold, since you can have feruchemical blood without actually manifesting abilities. So where do we draw the line here? The moment the Scadrial spiritweb template was decided upon?

[Yata he/him]

Cool idea. If that is the case, then Worldhopper babies born on Nalthis will still gain BioChroma, as I proposed, because there is no reason for the Shardworld to distinguish between Nalthis-born people with local parents and Nalthis-born people with alien parents; both categories of people would have a connection to Nalthis through birth.

Unless Nalthis people was alterated by Endowment to be vessel of Breath. They are incomplete being, less than average Human and they found themeself "whole" only through Endowment power.

Because their strangness isn't only to have a Breath, but also their "Ripper soul conditon". If 2 Nalthis Drabs wordhop somewhere else and (well I suppose you all know how the baby are made XD ), their offspring will be Drab with your own interpretation. Not a standard human.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Yata

[lookingglass she/her]

Right that escalated quickly! But what about using the magic off the original shard world? Both Hoid and Vasher needed to "hack" into the magic systems to be able to adapt them. That's why Hoid needed the moon specter and since he's from Yolen he is probably the only person in the cosmere that has a link to all shardwords.

[natc]

Well him and all the other people from Yolen . . .

[Moogle]

Right that escalated quickly! But what about using the magic off the original shard world? Both Hoid and Vasher needed to "hack" into the magic systems to be able to adapt them. That's why Hoid needed the moon specter and since he's from Yolen he is probably the only person in the cosmere that has a link to all shardwords.

 

Most systems work off-world:

Q: here's a question: how are cross world magics gonna work? Let's say a space freighter powered by fabrials enters Scadrial space. What happens to those fabrials?

A: Most of the magics are unaffected by being taken off world, though still subject to their own inherent flaws. Stormlight seeps out. Sand loses its glow. Metal can only be used by one with the right genetic code. Note that the magic from Sel is different, and is location dependent for reasons I don't think fandom has quite teased out.

(source)

 

It's possible to fuel every magic system with any kind of Investiture (albeit difficult). Or was that what you're asking? Sorry, your post was a little unclear to me.

 

---

 

How about Mistings or Ferrings? They are apparently recipients of this mysterious Initiation as well, so does that make them "more comparable to becoming a Herald or Returned than being an Awakener"?

 

Technically, the Ars Arcanum never specifies which system they're referring to on Scadrial - it could be either or both. (Probably both.) Certainly it doesn't refer to Hemalurgy, which throws the idea of there being only one Initiation type per planet out.

 

Allomancers, in any case, aren't wholly tied to genetics - there's lerasium. Hoid picked up Feruchemy through some means as well. So an Initiation is not a clear cut thing there. Similarly, Awakening does not have a clear cut Initiation if it's decided by Endowment, because anyone can gift their Breath to an off-worlder and they can use Awakening.

 

Maybe Khriss is wrong. Maybe Initiation is just a thing she made up. But we do not know that, so we are allowed to speculate as if she is totally correct until we get strong evidence that she's not.

 

I'm fine with this, so long as it is speculation. My original issue with your post is that you were assuming something I don't think we can safely assume and telling Yata about it as it were guaranteed fact (that Endowment decides whether or not each individual baby gets a Breath - which seems misleading since, as the WoB I posted notes, with mixed-world parents you get only a "bit" of Endowment).

Edited December 31, 2015 by Moogle

[Yata he/him]

Khriss may be wrong of course, for example I am quite sure that she make an error in the HoA's Ars Arcanum about Hemalurgy

[lookingglass she/her]

Most systems work off-world:

 

It's possible to fuel every magic system with any kind of Investiture (albeit difficult). Or was that what you're asking? Sorry, your post was a little unclear to me.

 

 

No I already know most systems work off world and its difficult to access. I was just wondering how difficult it would be for the children seeing as even Hoid has a bit of difficulty accessing it and how powerful can they be off world.