Borrowed Blades

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

There is so much information on Shardblades that is hard to keep track of what we know and don't know, so I will phrase this theory as more of a question and request for information.

If I'm correct, we see only a couple scenes where someone is using a shardblade that we know to be their own. For sure the prologue, where the Heralds summon their blades and drive them into the ground. Possibly the Feverstone Keep scene where the KR summon their blades to drive them into the ground as well. Every other Shardblade that we see in the series is borrowed/stolen/passed-down or whatever. A popular theory seems to be that new blades will be created through the Nahel bond after a certain amount of Ideals. If not that, the only other alternative is that Honor (+friends?) gave every Shardblade to mankind and that is the set amount that exist in the world - making them all hand-me-downs. 

 

My follow up thought is based on some pretty weak evidence, but was just a theory for sport: 

We see the Heralds summon their blades in the prologue, and the process seems instant. We are in Kalak's mind, and he does not give any hint of waiting for 10 heartbeats which is present in every other POV summon. The KR also seem to summon their blades instantly, though there is really no telling whether or not they were waiting 10 beats beforehand. 

The Heralds piece would lead me to suggest that maybe Honorblades don't have to wait 10 beats (I don't like this theory because I think Szeth has one). The KR portion opens it to all Shardblades - assuming they were created for the individual KR, perhaps shard-weapons only require those beats if they are borrowed or handed down from the individual that created them. There would no longer be a Nahel bond to speed it up (or whatever the Heralds have as well), and I'm not sure what would be occurring during those 10 beats, but it feels like it would be patching through some sort of work around bond. 

Do we have an explanation for any of these details? I know the evidence is weak, but that isn't the point of this one. 

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

The point about Kalak's POV having no mention of 10 heartbeats is interesting, seems strange that Brandon would seemingly go out of his way to include it everywhere else and not there. On the other hand the Knights Radiant summoning their blades instantly is too ambiguous to tell, it could simply be that it was hard to tell from Dalinar's viewpoint in a chaotic situation.

 

For me this raises the question of where shardblades are kept when not in use. Not sure if this has been discussed before? I always assumed they were stored in Shadesmar. If so I can see why having a bonded spren would somehow make the process quicker, them existing mostly in Shadesmar after all.

 

If this theory is true it would seem to be part of something larger knowing Brandon, perhaps hinting that the shardblades were more powerfull before the Recreance and the loss of the Nahel bond?

Edited January 13, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig

[Macen he/him]

I keep posting this everywhere, and I need to make a post just about this and none of my other wack-brained theories. But.....

I believe something similar to this. I believe the Nahel bond allows the spren to become the shard blades. That was the Recreance, when the KR gave up their Shard Blades and doomed their Spren. I think that the only way for the Spren to be released from their blades is via the Nahel Bond, which has essentially been severed by this betrayal.

I think this is how Spren died in the betrayal.

A lot of theorizing here, but I feel it would support your theory pretty strongly (with the exception of HonorBlades - I think they are significantly different).

[KiManiak he/him]

Just a reminder that we see the Knights Radiant summon Shardblades during the Starfalls chapter as well.  It does appear that the female Shardbearer summons her Blade rather swiftly after she heals Dalinar/Heb.  

 

(Compare that to when Kaladin sees Adolin summon his Shardblade in the market, when Adolin is confronting Sadeas's men who are assaulting the prostitute.  Kaladin notes that Adolin holds his hand out, like he is attempting to shake the other guy's hand) 

 

I've always thought it was noteworthy that Brandon often mentioned the 10 heartbeats necessary for modern Rosharians to summon their Shardblades, but in Dalinar's flashbacks it appears that the Knights Radiant summon their Blades almost instantaneously.  

Edited January 13, 2014 by KiManiak

[Shardlet he/him]

I suppose it partially depends on what action is required to summon ones blade.  It seems that no physical action would be necessary, just an intent to summon it.  For Adolin, his hand movement may be how he personally, and perhaps others, frame their intent to summon.  Others with better training and understanding may not require or desire such an outward signal.  Perhaps a more comprehensive review of when Dalinar, Darkness, Darkness's lackies, Adolin, KR, Szeth, etc. summon may be beneficial.

[11thorderknight]

IIFC, there is often mention in "present day" scenes of the 10 heartbeats, but not always. In the Adolin scene, for instance, he holds out his hand, the other guys spits in it, Adolin says "I see" and the Blade appears. Now, in the context of a confrontation like that, 10 heartbeats is actually a pretty long time. Assuming Adolin is alert but not terrified, he's have a heart rate of 80 to 100 bpm, corresponding to 6 to 8 seconds. Meaning, Adolin must have started summoning the Blade before he actually stretched out his hand. We know the Blade doesn't have to be summoned once the process starts; there's a scene where Shallan, afraid of the Cryptics, "began the process" but didn't finish it. Conceivably, Shardbearers could "begin the process" any time they even suspected they might want their Blade, then abort. This could account for scenes where the Blade conveniently appears right on cue.

From a writing standpoint, writing out the 10 heartbeats every. single. time. would get very tedious.

Along those lines though - it's pretty clear that back in the day, the Radiants had a similar connection to their Plate as they did to their Blades (ex: the Stoneward in Starfalls summons and dismisses her helmet several times). What if the Blade is the final part of the outfit? Meaning, back in the day, heartbeat 1 summoned the breastplate, heartbeat 2 summoned the boots, etc, until heartbeat 9 summoned the helmet, and heartbeat 10 summoned the Blade? Once the outfit is done, it could go "back and forth". So, an armored Knight could summon and dismiss his helmet and Blade in only one heartbeat, since the rest of the Plate stayed where it was.

Edited January 13, 2014 by 11thorderknight

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

IIFC, there is often mention in "present day" scenes of the 10 heartbeats, but not always. In the Adolin scene, for instance, he holds out his hand, the other guys spits in it, Adolin says "I see" and the Blade appears. Now, in the context of a confrontation like that, 10 heartbeats is actually a pretty long time. Assuming Adolin is alert but not terrified, he's have a heart rate of 80 to 100 bpm, corresponding to 6 to 8 seconds. Meaning, Adolin must have started summoning the Blade before he actually stretched out his hand. We know the Blade doesn't have to be summoned once the process starts; there's a scene where Shallan, afraid of the Cryptics, "began the process" but didn't finish it. Conceivably, Shardbearers could "begin the process" any time they even suspected they might want their Blade, then abort. This could account for scenes where the Blade conveniently appears right on cue.

From a writing standpoint, writing out the 10 heartbeats every. single. time. would get very tedious.

Along those lines though - it's pretty clear that back in the day, the Radiants had a similar connection to their Plate as they did to their Blades (ex: the Stoneward in Starfalls summons and dismisses her helmet several times). What if the Blade is the final part of the outfit? Meaning, back in the day, heartbeat 1 summoned the breastplate, heartbeat 2 summoned the boots, etc, until heartbeat 9 summoned the helmet, and heartbeat 10 summoned the Blade? Once the outfit is done, it could go "back and forth". So, an armored Knight could summon and dismiss his helmet and Blade in only one heartbeat, since the rest of the Plate stayed where it was.

That's a really neat idea. Point though: Reading the sequence every time got very tedious. So I know that it was written quite a few times. I'm sure it was tedious, but that is also why I think there is a purpose to it. 

I should have mentioned that I would find it very believable if Brandon were to write in that starting the summoning process over and over again was nearly second nature to any of the KR that often went into battle. If you can start it over and over again, it might become a sort of muscle memory habit to continually be triggering that summon. I like my idea better, so I hope that isn't the answer, obviously, but I wouldn't be disappointed. 

[KiManiak he/him]

. In the Adolin scene, for instance, he holds out his hand, the other guys spits in it, Adolin says "I see" and the Blade appears.... Meaning, Adolin must have started summoning the Blade before he actually stretched out his hand...Conceivably, Shardbearers could "begin the process" any time they even suspected they might want their Blade, then abort. This could account for scenes where the Blade conveniently appears right on cue.

 

I am not necessarily disputing your theory about aborting the summoning process right before the Blade appears.  

But for clarification's sake, it should be noted that Adolin: 

1) held out his hand and spoke a couple of lines;

2) then Sadeas's officer replied;

3) Adolin replied back;

4) the officer spat in his hand;

5) Adolin said something one more time; and finally

6) Adolin's Shardblade appeared.

 

Now, it's hard to gauge the flow of time in the exchange, but Adolin could've started to summon the Blade as early as the moment he held out his hand or as late as immediately after the guard spat on his hand (pausing for dramatic effect, maybe  ).  But I believe there was more than enough time to summon his Blade after he held out his hand.  

 

I don't think it's clear whether the physical act of holding out (whether in front of or to the side) one's hand is necessary, but I also don't think we can summarily rule it out.

[el_warko he/him]

I suppose it partially depends on what action is required to summon ones blade.  It seems that no physical action would be necessary, just an intent to summon it.  For Adolin, his hand movement may be how he personally, and perhaps others, frame their intent to summon.  Others with better training and understanding may not require or desire such an outward signal.  Perhaps a more comprehensive review of when Dalinar, Darkness, Darkness's lackies, Adolin, KR, Szeth, etc. summon may be beneficial.

 

Was thinking much the same thing.  Sticking your hand out may not be requisite for the summoning.

[11thorderknight]

Oh, I don't think sticking out your hand is required at all. In fact, I think it's somewhat of a "tell" meaning that you should really train yourself not to do it, lest you give yourself away. There's even a point where Adolin or Dalinar, I forget who, mentions that they see a Parshendi make a hand gesture that they interpreted as getting ready to summon a Blade, then aborted it.

 

I guess that's my point: a Shardbearer could start the process before deciding for sure that they wanted the Blade, then around heartbeat 8 or 9 stick out their hand and have the Blade appear right on cue. To an observer, it would look like it appeared instantly.

[KiManiak he/him]

I guess my question to you would be: What in-book evidence is there of a modern day Shardbearer summoning his Shardblade without holding out their hand?  What in-book evidence of a modern Shardbearer is there where Brandon doesn't point out the act of summoning in a somewhat drawn out or delayed way?

 

I think even when Dalinar is kicking Elhokar's rear end, Brandon mentions that the Blade is summoned by Elhokar holding his hand to the side, right before Dalinar kicks his hand (so clearly, Dalinar saw him summoning it).  That was clearly a time when Elhokar probably wouldn't have telegraphed his actions (unless maybe he had to?).

 

Like I said, I'm cool with the theory that maybe it's not required; I just don't recall anything in the book to support that theory. 
 

Edited January 14, 2014 by KiManiak

[Crysanja]

dont forget thouse blades are very dangerous, if you cut/pirce anyone or even youreselfe by exident you will deal permanent damage, or even kill.

 

holding out youre hand will savekeep everyone around you, including youreselfe.

 

if the summoning of the blades would be more casual and in any stance, there would be atleast a very few exidents.

it would be, i guess, a huge shame to hurt someone by exident. 

 

maybe radiants can use their shardblade like a normal sword, and prevent dealing any damage.

[DocHoliday he/him]

I think even when Dalinar is kicking Elhokar's rear end, Brandon mentions that the Blade is summoned by Elhokar holding his hand to the side, right before Dalinar kicks his hand (so clearly, Dalinar saw him summoning it).

 

 

Oh, I don't think sticking out your hand is required at all. In fact, I think it's somewhat of a "tell" meaning that you should really train yourself not to do it, lest you give yourself away. 

Hammer, meet nail. It's probably not a requisite, but summoning a Shardblade with your arms crossed is not really a good idea. It's also noted that it drops into your hand, and the natural pose that everyone does to catch is with an extended arm.

 

Also to answer your question about the Parshendi 11 th KR, it was Jasnah relating to Shallon, about Gavilar telling her about a hunt.

[Mileswasbestcharacter]

I would think there is also a standby mode that we haven't yet seen. As Dalinar goes to confront Sadeas after his betrayal on the tower, Dalinar tells adolin to keep his blade as mist should the event arise that adolin needs it to help fight their way out of Sadeas' camp. This could have been just a phrase meant to say, be ready for anything, but it does make me wonder if there is a way to keep your shard blade on standby.

[Daishi5]

I think the phrase "keep your blade as mist" means don't summon your blade.  He was telling Adolin not to summon his blade when Dalinar summoned his because Dalinar was already planning to offer his blade as a trade.  

[meddler]

^ No I believe he meant summoning it but somehow keeping the blade invisible.

He'd still probably have to hold onto the hilt for it not to disappear. 

[KiManiak he/him]

So now we're hypothesizing:

 

1. Shardblades can be summoned my modern Shardholders without any type of particular hand motion/activity; and
2. Shardblades can be summoned and kept invisible?

As I said, I'm cool with wildly speculating to come up with theories (I do it all the time).  But I've yet to see any in-book evidence to support either of those theories, and plenty of in-book evidence to dispute them.

 

If Shardblades don't require some type of hand/arm motion or stance to summon them, then why hasn't a character done it, especially when it would be in their best interests to conceal the fact that they are summoning a Shardblade?

 

If Shardblades can be kept invisible, why would the Shardbearers make them visible and draw attention to them while in battle or confrontation, when the element of surprise or uncertainty would aid them more in fighting their opponent?  Why isn't the possibility of this mentioned even once in the book?

 

 

ETA: Also, we later see Adolin begin the act of summoning his Shardblade (by holding out his hand, no less) when Adolin sees his father plunge Oathbringer in the ground, and this is after his father ordered him to keep his Blade as mist.  It's more likely that "keep your Blade as mist" just means don't summon it yet.

Edited January 14, 2014 by KiManiak

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

So now we're hypothesizing:

 

1. Shardblades can be summoned my modern Shardholders without any type of particular hand motion/activity; and
2. Shardblades can be summoned and kept invisible?

As I said, I'm cool with wildly speculating to come up with theories (I do it all the time).  But I've yet to see any in-book evidence to support either of those theories, and plenty of in-book evidence to dispute them.

 

If Shardblades don't require some type of hand/arm motion or stance to summon them, then why hasn't a character done it, especially when it would be in their best interests to conceal the fact that they are summoning a Shardblade?

 

If Shardblades can be kept invisible, why would the Shardbearers make them visible and draw attention to them while in battle or confrontation, when the element of surprise or uncertainty would aid them more in fighting their opponent?  Why isn't the possibility of this mentioned even once in the book?

 

 

ETA: Also, we later see Adolin begin the act of summoning his Shardblade (by holding out his hand, no less) when Adolin sees his father plunge Oathbringer in the ground, and this is after his father ordered him to keep his Blade as mist.  It's more likely that "keep your Blade as mist" just means don't summon it yet.

 

Have you ever fed a baby its food? Involuntary actions are really confusing... and embarrassing. 

[Guest AmruthS]

I feel, its just how they are taught/seen about summoning the shardblades.

 

there is a similar situation in Wheel of Time concerning weaving saidar by female Aes Sedai.

 

Moraine thought that dead Aes sedai of old (age of legends) didn't require hand-motion for weaves (ex. fireball) they just thought about and it formed. Their teaching if any, died with them. Also Verin notes that Aiel wilders (channelers) did some weaves differently than Aes Sedai.

Edited January 15, 2014 by AmruthS

[Swimmingly he/him]

I feel, its just how they are taught/seen about summoning the shardblades.

 

there is a similar situation in Wheel of Time concerning weaving saidar by female Aes Sedai.

 

Moraine thought that dead Aes sedai of old (age of legends) didn't require hand-motion for weaves (ex. fireball) they just thought about and it formed. Their teaching if any, died with them. Also Verin notes that Aiel wilders (channelers) did some weaves differently than Aes Sedai.

I bet that the KR had some kind of Zen training to speed up their heartbeat for ten beats.