Did the Radiants betray the spren?

[Malim]

I hadn't seen that topic. Sorry to appropriate your theory. Props and an upvote to you!

[Daishi5]

My current theory is based on these facts and assumptions:  

A.  Jasnah was right, the parshmen are the voidbringers in some form.  

B.  We know the Parshendi change forms through spren.  

C.  Spren are from the cognitive realm.  

D.  Most spren appear mindless on Roshar, and bonding spren take a while to recover their mental faculties (Wyndle had help to protect him from the worst of this).  

E.  Odium appears to be able to corrupt spren or there are just plain evil spren.

 

 

I think the KR somehow blocked Spren's minds from crossing over into the physical realm and severed almost all spren bonds.  The KR may have been seeking some way to stop future desolations and realized that they could sever all the parshendi bonds, but they would also loose their bonds.  By severing all bonds, the KR were betraying their own spren, but they did it to save all of humanity from Desolations. 

Edited January 16, 2014 by Daishi5

[HydrogenAlpha]

I can't back up my theory  with any facts but I think that humanity somehow blew up the city that was once at the Shattered Plains, somehow they also destroyed the equivalent in the cognitive realm, killing lots of sprens in their spren-city.
But it's also kind of lame, I guess Mr. S will come up with something so awesome we can't even think of.

Edited January 16, 2014 by HydrogenAlpha

[Grayv]

Maybe the betrayal was forgetting about the bonding?

[Arook]

I can't back up my theory  with any facts but I think that humanity somehow blew up the city that was once at the Shattered Plains, somehow they also destroyed the equivalent in the cognitive realm, killing lots of sprens in their spren-city.

But it's also kind of lame, I guess Mr. S will come up with something so awesome we can't even think of.

 

I don't think in shadesmar isn't the land is were the ocean is and there is ocean were there is land, not that it would really matter in a realm composed of thought.

 

My current theory is based on these facts and assumptions:  

A.  Jasnah was right, the parshmen are the voidbringers in some form.  

B.  We know the Parshendi change forms through spren.  

C.  Spren are from the cognitive realm.  

D.  Most spren appear mindless on Roshar, and bonding spren take a while to recover their mental faculties (Wyndle had help to protect him from the worst of this).  

E.  Odium appears to be able to corrupt spren or there are just plain evil spren.

 

 

I think the KR somehow blocked Spren's minds from crossing over into the physical realm and severed almost all spren bonds.  The KR may have been seeking some way to stop future desolations and realized that they could sever all the parshendi bonds, but they would also loose their bonds.  By severing all bonds, the KR were betraying their own spren, but they did it to save all of humanity from Desolations. 

 

I agree for the most part I think that the knights broke their bond and the spren were trapped in the physical realm but lacking their bond completely lost there ability think. look at the difference we see in the 4 spren. Syl was mindless at first but drawn to the honor that Kaladin showed. The criptic once bonded to shallon seems child like much like syl at first. I would bet that jasnah's spren was the same way she just didn't start talking with it until it recovered more. Wyndle apparently was sent to bond were the other three appear to have chosen there own bond. It's possible Jasnah's spren took similar measures.

[+eveorjoy]

I can't back up my theory  with any facts but I think that humanity somehow blew up the city that was once at the Shattered Plains, somehow they also destroyed the equivalent in the cognitive realm, killing lots of sprens in their spren-city.

But it's also kind of lame, I guess Mr. S will come up with something so awesome we can't even think of.

 

Actually Urthithu was in the sky and I think it crashed into the Shattered Plains.

 

As for how the Radiance betrayed the spren. In the Recreance the KR let go of their powers and oaths for some reason. How was this a betrayal of the spren? The Spren are thoughts and Ideas. By letting go of their oaths, which are also ideals, they mostly killed their spren partners. Syl said that if Kaladin refused his powers she would lose herself. Would he have been killing her then?

 

I hope we find out what caused the Recreance in WoR, but I bet we won't learn about the cause in book 2.

[QuantumHarmonix]

Personally I think when the Radiants abandoned their blades they also cut their bonds with their spren. I agree with Malim that this would make the spren mindless and trapped in the physical realm. But I think the Radiants were tricked into doing it by a Herald that seems to equate surgebinders with bringing on the Desolations. 

[vikorr]

I am under the opinion that Shard Blade are created by a Spren who is bonded with a Human choosing to give themselves into the Shard Blade (Thus, the Spren essentially becomes the Shard Blade). I believe the betrayal was when the KR gave up their shard blades, essentially condemning the spren to be trapped in the blade forever. *EDIT* A blade that is held by a human who then uses it to rip the souls from living beings (WoB state that the shard blade severs the soul).

 

 

I agree with Macen, for the following reason : In Dalinars Vision, with the Almight talking about the Knights Radiant :

 

The Almighty turned to him. “I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible. You will need to refound them. 

 

 

The almight isn't talking about surgebinding (although that could be part of it), but the full blown Knights Radiant, and the Knights Radiant (rather than just surgebinders) were linked to the Spren. It appears that the shardset was invested by the spren, and if it was the bonded spren, then the Recreance was absolutely a betrayal of the spren.

 

There's evidence that the shardset for a Knight Radiant comes from the bonded spren :

 

- Brandon says its much more difficult to affect an already invested item...in this case a shardset

- Szeth says his lashings won't work on Shardset

- in the Starfalls Vision the Windrunner is flying while in shardsuit, and how did edgedancers use friction on themselves etc...but if the suit is attuned individually because of their bonded spren, it is then easy enough to imagine that the invested suit would not interfere with surgebinding abilities granted by the bond with the same spren.

- the suits glowed prior to the Recreance, and immediately not - directly after

 

And evidence from the vision :

 

- "I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren..." (ie allowing the formation of the Knights Radiant...not just surgebinders, but KR)

 

- wishing to immitate what I had given men...

 

So what was this last they he had given men? The most obvious answer is 'The Heralds'. And what did Heralds have? Honorblades (and there has been argument for immortality being granted the KR as well, but that's not so important to this).

 

Hence it appears that the Spren are responsible for the Shardsets (more specifically, bonded spren).

 

So I have to agree with Macen on the betrayal.

 

edit : corrected name

Edited January 16, 2014 by vikorr

[Rybal]

First, I am in the camp that believes that Shards are formed through the Nahel Bond as individuals progress towards becoming a Knight Radiant.

 

I believe that the betrayal was the Recreance, when the KR gave up their Shards. I think that that connection severed the bond, thus essentially depriving the spren of certain aspects that they had come to depend on to live, which resulted in their death.

 

In WoK, Syl tells Kaladin that she can stop what she was doing to him, but that would result in her becoming like she was in the beginning. As their Bond grows, I believe that a Nahel Bonded spren becomes something akin to a symbiotic parasite, for lack of a better term. I doubt that they can survive apart from the one they are Bonded to.

 

Up until the point where the KR started getting rid of their Shards, their Plate was still glowing. However, as soon as they abdicated their role, it became dull like modern Plate.

 

-------------------

 

Thinking about this also gives me a new theory:

 

The Plate and Blades that are in existence in modern times is only that which was discarded during the Recreance. We don't have enough evidence to show that there are currently that many known Shards, let alone enough to have survived for several generations of KR.

 

If the Shards are formed during the process of becoming a KR, it is possible that it is tied into the life force of the spren powering that Bond. 

 

If that is true, then it is possible that, when a KR dies, the Shards go to the Cognitive plane and the spren is merged with the essence of the Shards. Those spren are also more likely to form future Bonds (having been through the process before), which would make the betrayal at the Recreance all the more important and could also explain why it has taken so long for Surgebinding to reappear. 

 

Hmm - I guess we'll see.

[Arondell]

In WoK, Syl tells Kaladin that she can stop what she was doing to him, but that would result in her becoming like she was in the beginning. As their Bond grows, I believe that a Nahel Bonded spren becomes something akin to a symbiotic parasite, for lack of a better term. I doubt that they can survive apart from the one they are Bonded to.

 

A better term would be a symbiont or symbiotic relationship.  One in which each receives a benefit from the other.  A parasitic relationship would be one in which one side receives no appreciable benefit and might actually be harmed.(e.g. a tick.)

[Dros]

 

 

But I think the Radiants were tricked into doing it by a Herald that seems to equate surgebinders with bringing on the Desolations. 

 

That's something along the lines I was thinking too. Maybe they weren't tricked, though, but convinced.

[blackmagic3]

I was right the knights broke their oaths. (excerpt)

[Macen]

I agree with Macen, for the following reason : In Dalinars Vision, with the Almight talking about the Knights Radiant :

 

 

The almight isn't talking about surgebinding (although that could be part of it), but the full blown Knights Radiant, and the Knights Radiant (rather than just surgebinders) were linked to the Spren. It appears that the shardset was invested by the spren, and if it was the bonded spren, then the Recreance was absolutely a betrayal of the spren.

 

There's evidence that the shardset for a Knight Radiant comes from the bonded spren :

 

- Brandon says its much more difficult to affect an already invested item...in this case a shardset

- Szeth says his lashings won't work on Shardset

- in the Starfalls Vision the Windrunner is flying while in shardsuit, and how did edgedancers use friction on themselves etc...but if the suit is attuned individually because of their bonded spren, it is then easy enough to imagine that the invested suit would not interfere with surgebinding abilities granted by the bond with the same spren.

- the suits glowed prior to the Recreance, and immediately not - directly after

 

And evidence from the vision :

 

- "I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren..." (ie allowing the formation of the Knights Radiant...not just surgebinders, but KR)

 

- wishing to immitate what I had given men...

 

So what was this last they he had given men? The most obvious answer is 'The Heralds'. And what did Heralds have? Honorblades (and there has been argument for immortality being granted the KR as well, but that's not so important to this).

 

Hence it appears that the Spren are responsible for the Shardsets (more specifically, bonded spren).

 

So I have to agree with Macen on the betrayal.

 

edit : corrected name

Vikorr. I've been trying to put this into a logical well worded post for about a month now (I have a few very close, but I always tied in other theories that were obviously wrong Like This). I greatly appreciate the support on this and the well put together post. 

On a side note. I believe the Spren died - now whether Spren see death in the same way (perhaps loss of consciousness is death to them) or whether the Spren that died are gone forever, I'm unsure. *EDIT* Correction, I don't believe the spren 'Died' but rather are trapped in the blade forever. I could see this being wrong though.

*Note* I should contact you with any other theories I have and have you flesh em out for me.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Macen

[Macen]

Thinking about this also gives me a new theory:

 

The Plate and Blades that are in existence in modern times is only that which was discarded during the Recreance. We don't have enough evidence to show that there are currently that many known Shards, let alone enough to have survived for several generations of KR.

 

If the Shards are formed during the process of becoming a KR, it is possible that it is tied into the life force of the spren powering that Bond. 

I like where you are going with this.

 

 

If that is true, then it is possible that, when a KR dies, the Shards go to the Cognitive plane and the spren is merged with the essence of the Shards. Those spren are also more likely to form future Bonds (having been through the process before), which would make the betrayal at the Recreance all the more important and could also explain why it has taken so long for Surgebinding to reappear. 

 

Hmm - I guess we'll see.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the first sentence. As far as Surgebinding re-appearing - most evidence points to something that Gavilar did. I do like the theory and you will get an upvote for it, but I still think it was something Gavilar did, not this.