Jasnah and men, particularly Amaram

[Shardlet he/him]

Just who is Jasnah dressing up to impress? Maybe Shallan? Maybe that's why she's so uncomfortable in mentioning the prospect of marriage to Shallan...

 

She is sister to the King of Alethkar.  How she looks and behaves reflects on her brother and Alethkar at large.  While her beliefs are true to who she is and therefore perfectly satisfactory to embrace, unless she feels strongly about her appearance, it is likely that she maintains her appearance in order to support her brother.  Not to mention she seems to be somewhat fastidious and her personality seems that she is not keen on sloppiness.

 

 

Edit:  As to Jasnah's feelings about the limiting nature of marriage, it seems likely that she would feel that way.  She is independent and strong.  She is a scholar and her particular studies necessitate no small amount of travel.  Unmarried, she may spend her hours as she will.  If she were married, she would be at least somewhat beholden to her husband.  She would have additional demands on her time.  The wife seems to be the primary scribe for her husband in Alethi lighteyed culture.  Even in our modern society IRL, marriage involves trade-offs.  You offer up no small degree of your personal freedom to make a successful marriage.

 

As for her expectations of Shallan's reaction, it does not seem surprising to me.  Jasnah has noticed that Shallan has blossomed in her newfound freedom.  Shallan also has been kept in for most her life.  Through Jasnah's lens, she would not likely expect Shallan to be in any hurry to yoked or reigned-in by marriage. 

Edited January 10, 2014 by Shardlet

[hoser he/him]

On reflection, there are two quotes that may be particularly revealing about Jasnah's POV:

 

“Though at times he lacks foresight, Adolin has a good heart—as good as that of his father, who may be the best man I have ever known. ...”

 

The best man, but clearly not the best person?

 

“The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?”

 

Being beholden to a man is worse than being beholden to a woman?

[Natans he/him]

On reflection, there are two quotes that may be particularly revealing about Jasnah's POV:

 

“Though at times he lacks foresight, Adolin has a good heart—as good as that of his father, who may be the best man I have ever known. ...”

 

The best man, but clearly not the best person?

 

“The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?”

 

Being beholden to a man is worse than being beholden to a woman?

 

I read this like "at least a woman would understand you, men only wanna play with their swords"

[Arondell]

Just who is Jasnah dressing up to impress? Maybe Shallan? Maybe that's why she's so uncomfortable in mentioning the prospect of marriage to Shallan...

 

I'm reminded of Jasnah's comments about power being an illusion of perception.  I have always had the impression that Jasnah carries and dresses herself in such a way so as to project authority.  She certainly tends to dominate *most* situations she has appeared in.

[IllNsickly he/him]

Just who is Jasnah dressing up to impress? Maybe Shallan? Maybe that's why she's so uncomfortable in mentioning the prospect of marriage to Shallan...

Sometimes you just want to feel Pretty?

[Guest Alaxel]

If Jasnah doesn't like men because she's gay, I doubt that it will be explicitly stated. Not unless her sexual orientation was crucial to the plot. So, as much as I would like to see Jasnah and Shallan play "mercy" with their safehands, I don't anticipate her ever explicitly stating that she is gay.

I don't even think she's gay. I think she just fears losing her independence. When she's married, she will be expected to study and research things to further her husbands career. She might even be expected to renounce her atheism because it would reflect poorly on her husbands reputation. I don't think it's more than that.

I do want to see safehand on safehand thumb wrestling, though. Maybe in a bowl of jello, even.

[Colateralwar]

If nothing else, Kaladin and Jasnah will get along swimmingly due to their mutual hatred/dislike for Amaram.

[Aether he/him]

I do want to see safehand on safehand thumb wrestling, though. Maybe in a bowl of jello, even.

I just realised that I've read the Way of Kings way too many times . That actually sounds a bit naughty to me!

[Meg]

“The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?”

 

Being beholden to a man is worse than being beholden to a woman?

I understand this part as for what Jasnah says just afterwards: she refers to Shallan's youth and her father (who, undoubtedly, was a man).

Windrunner made a theory about Jasnah's past in March 2013; maybe some of the thoughts there are interesting for readers in this actual thread.

[Swimmingly he/him]

If Jasnah doesn't like men because she's gay, I doubt that it will be explicitly stated. Not unless her sexual orientation was crucial to the plot. So, as much as I would like to see Jasnah and Shallan play "mercy" with their safehands, I don't anticipate her ever explicitly stating that she is gay.

I don't even think she's gay. I think she just fears losing her independence. When she's married, she will be expected to study and research things to further her husbands career. She might even be expected to renounce her atheism because it would reflect poorly on her husbands reputation. I don't think it's more than that.

I do want to see safehand on safehand thumb wrestling, though. Maybe in a bowl of jello, even.

Brandon's not written a gay character before; I don't know how that relates to his religion, but if he can write a sympathetic, heroic atheist, then maybe he'll try for other nonstandard characters as well.

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

Brandon's not written a gay character before; I don't know how that relates to his religion, but if he can write a sympathetic, heroic atheist, then maybe he'll try for other nonstandard characters as well.

 

I was wondering on this question myself. How do Brandon's personal/religious beliefs affect his writing?

 

I agree with the general opinion that Jasnah isn't gay, although cliche would state that she is given the current evidence. What I understand of her character suggests she feels the need to be constantly in control of everything around her, and marriage would conflict with that given Vorin culture. Possibly this is even influenced by her 'failing' during Gavilar's assassination, although it probably goes beyond that.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig

[Natans he/him]

Brandon's not written a gay character before; I don't know how that relates to his religion, but if he can write a sympathetic, heroic atheist, then maybe he'll try for other nonstandard characters as well.

 

Not interelly correct there are a gay character in the brigde 4  and others in his others books=)

 

 

'Tor Q&A with Brandon Sanderson' said

W. HEUS ()

How do you feel about the lack of prominent gay characters within the epic fantasy as a genre and do you ever include (or will ever include) gay or lesbian characters in your own work?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

That's an issue that I feel I should speak about delicately, because it's one of those charged issues that can create a lot of division. But my basic feeling is that a character should not be any more or less sympathetic, or more or less evil, or anything like that, because of sexual orientation or because of basic beliefs or philosophy on things like religion. So there are gay characters in my books, though so far they have been side characters. I don't make a big deal of it, because I tend not to make a big deal of the sexuality of side characters in general. For instance, in The Way of Kings, Drehy, a member of Bridge Four, is gay. He's based on a good friend of mine who is gay. There is a lesbian character in Alloy of Law; again I don't make a big deal of it though it's a little more obvious.

Basically, I just try to write characters and try to have different makeups of characters. I feel gay characters should be included, and I'm annoyed that sometimes there seems to be an association between including gay characters and using that as a means of making them seem like a reprehensible character. You may know what I'm talking about; I've seen it in books before and it bugs me. Just like it bugs me if an author makes a character religious and the tone of the book implies, "Well, obviously, religious people are all idiots, so I'm not going to make this character actively an idiot, I'm just going to represent them as being religious," which by the tone of the book indicates that they're an idiot. That's not to say that there can't be social structures like religions that will push people toward doing things that are questionable or morally reprehensible—there can, of course, and it will happen—but I'm talking about the individuals. I don't know that I have strong feelings on the subject other than that I think people should be represented as people.

I wrote a bit more about the subject in my essay on Dumbledore.

Source

Edited January 12, 2014 by Natans

[flinn]

 What would happen if Jasnah were to marry?

From what I gather, she would then be her husband's secretary basically.

You have all heard the "ball and chain" saying... Well, in Jasnah's situation it is hard for her not to see marriage as just that, chained. I am not saying something did not happen that may have contributed to her view of marriage, but she doesn't seem to be a man-hater at all.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Not interelly correct there are a gay character in the brigde 4 and others in his others books=)

'Tor Q&A with Brandon Sanderson' said

W. HEUS ()

How do you feel about the lack of prominent gay characters within the epic fantasy as a genre and do you ever include (or will ever include) gay or lesbian characters in your own work?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

That's an issue that I feel I should speak about delicately, because it's one of those charged issues that can create a lot of division. But my basic feeling is that a character should not be any more or less sympathetic, or more or less evil, or anything like that, because of sexual orientation or because of basic beliefs or philosophy on things like religion. So there are gay characters in my books, though so far they have been side characters. I don't make a big deal of it, because I tend not to make a big deal of the sexuality of side characters in general. For instance, in The Way of Kings, Drehy, a member of Bridge Four, is gay. He's based on a good friend of mine who is gay. There is a lesbian character in Alloy of Law; again I don't make a big deal of it though it's a little more obvious.

Basically, I just try to write characters and try to have different makeups of characters. I feel gay characters should be included, and I'm annoyed that sometimes there seems to be an association between including gay characters and using that as a means of making them seem like a reprehensible character. You may know what I'm talking about; I've seen it in books before and it bugs me. Just like it bugs me if an author makes a character religious and the tone of the book implies, "Well, obviously, religious people are all idiots, so I'm not going to make this character actively an idiot, I'm just going to represent them as being religious," which by the tone of the book indicates that they're an idiot. That's not to say that there can't be social structures like religions that will push people toward doing things that are questionable or morally reprehensible—there can, of course, and it will happen—but I'm talking about the individuals. I don't know that I have strong feelings on the subject other than that I think people should be represented as people.

I wrote a bit more about the subject in my essay on Dumbledore.

Source

So there are gay people, I just don't recognise them.

[Bremen]

In that quote he also says that only side characters have been gay so far.  Is Jasnah a side character?  I would say no.

 

I don't agree that something necessarily bad/traumatic happened to her to color her view of men.  She was genuinely surprised at Shallan's reaction to a betrothal.  If her own views came about because of a personal incident she would be careless to assume another person would have the same views as her.

[writelhd she/her]

It would be very refreshing to have a mostly asexual female character, even more so if while being so she's still seen as vibrant and interesting, not stuffy and pitiable.  Win so far, IMO.  It would be refreshing if she were a lesbian, too, but at this point speculation about her being one feel a bit along the lines of "doesn't seem notably into men, so must be gay" which is a bit simplistic without more information.  

 

One thing that struck me about the hints at a Jasnah/Amaram match desired by Gavilar is that Jasnah seemingly outranks him considerably.  I mean, she's the Kings daughter, as high ranking as a lighteyed woman can be, and he, while clearly an important lighteyes, is still not a highprince or a highprinces's son--he's not even at the shattered plains, but stuck at home pitting his army against the army of other less-than-highprince lighteyes for the glory of Sadeas.  Now, clearly Amaram is also more than that somehow, what with all his strongly hinted at connections to various powers in play, now including the king himself, but still, not quite on the same level, or so I had thought with the little information I have about him so far.

 

I don't find that unbelievable, so much as interesting, another piece of evidence that Vorin lighteyes are somewhat fluid about upward mobility via marriage.  Shallan's betrothal to Adolin was noteworthy to me for that same reason.  I must say I didn't expect it, not because of the characters themselves, although I do see that as a potentially odd match, but because I had always seen Shallan's rank as so much lower than his and even Renarin's that I hadn't even thought of that as a possibility.  But then, all of those women Adolin dated didn't seem to be other highprinces' daughters so much as the daughters of officers in the Kholin army, which everyone seemed to view as normal, and I remember that Kaladin's parents held out a hope that Kaladan would be able to marry the citylord's lighteyed daughter that didn't seem to be a terribly unrealistic one before the personality of Roshone got in the way.

 

All in all, can't wait to read more about who exactly this Amaram fellow is, what is his history with Gavliar, Jasnah, the Ghostbloods, all of it.

[Aether he/him]

It would be very refreshing to have a mostly asexual female character, even more so if while being so she's still seen as vibrant and interesting, not stuffy and pitiable. Win so far, IMO..

I agree more or less fully, though that isn't going to stop me from shipping her with Kaladin!

[TomR]

because I had always seen Shallan's rank as so much lower than his and even Renarin's that I hadn't even thought of that as a possibility.  

 

Shallan's rank isn't that low-- her father was planning on making a bid for Highprince, and the Ghostbloods believed he had a strong enough chance that they backed him.  That should mean Shallan's fairly high dahn.  Her house is on the brink of ruin, but only because her father died, and that's being kept quiet, so her actual rank shouldn't have changed yet.  Now, Jasnah does know the change in circumstances, but she also knows that Shallan is bringing another Surgebinder into the family, which offsets it.  From the outside point of view, it is not necessarily a bad match for Adolin.

 

Regarding Jasnah, going by the synopsis, "...A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit.  Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves.  They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures..."  That seems to imply that, while demonstrating divine attributes may attract spren, you have to go through some trauma before you can form a bond.  Similar to how Allomancers have to Snap or the Returned have to die.  So I think it's likely that Shallan caught a glimpse of whatever happened that allowed Jasnah to Surgebind. However, the men she confronted were known as thieves and murderers, not rapists, so I don't think it's necessarily sexual trauma.  I also kind of hope it's not, since I'm all for a character who just prioritizes their work and/or independence for the sake of said work and/or independence, but we'll see.

[shadewolf]

That should mean Shallan's fairly high dahn.  Her house is on the brink of ruin, but only because her father died, and that's being kept quiet, so her actual rank shouldn't have changed yet.  Now, Jasnah does know the change in circumstances, but she also knows that Shallan is bringing another Surgebinder into the family, which offsets it.  From the outside point of view, it is not necessarily a bad match for Adolin.

 

I'd also like to point out that Shallan is also incredibly smart, and would be a benefit the kholin family for her to join.

[Natans he/him]

Regarding Jasnah, going by the synopsis, "...A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit.  Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves.  They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures..."  That seems to imply that, while demonstrating divine attributes may attract spren, you have to go through some trauma before you can form a bond.  Similar to how Allomancers have to Snap or the Returned have to die.  So I think it's likely that Shallan caught a glimpse of whatever happened that allowed Jasnah to Surgebind. 

 

I like you thought make perfect sense Jasnah have a dark side, and she hates criminals  and that could be the fact that made her soul crack, I don't know what happened but this could be the reason both for herpower and for desdain for men.

 

=)

 

Upvote for you

[11thorderknight]

In that quote he also says that only side characters have been gay so far.  Is Jasnah a side character?  I would say no.

 

I don't agree that something necessarily bad/traumatic happened to her to color her view of men.  She was genuinely surprised at Shallan's reaction to a betrothal.  If her own views came about because of a personal incident she would be careless to assume another person would have the same views as her.

 

This.

 

I think everyone assumes that Jasnah has some Deeply Buried Traumatic/Dramatic Secret in her past and are eagerly awaiting the reveal. What if we simply take her at face value? She has chosen to devote her life to scholarship and to her Veristitalian/heretical views. She knows that marriage would greatly impede her personal goals, and hence she avoids it. She knows that most if not all men, at least in her society, would not tolerate her views and curtail her freedom. She resents that she has to become an infamous social pariah in order to do what she wants to do with her life. Naturally, this has made her somewhat jaded. Her views are very much in line with many, many famous real-life figures. 

 

Also, I find it very sad that so many people seem to think "woman not interested in marriage = lesbian". And for the record, I'm a straight guy.

[Morsk he/him]

Also, I find it very sad that so many people seem to think "woman not interested in marriage = lesbian". And for the record, I'm a straight guy.

I'm less concerned; they're talking about fiction, not people. I'd say it's more like "female character not interested in marriage = token lesbian", because "token lesbian" is something that happens in fiction, whether we like it or not. The more lacking a story is in gay characters, the more likely it is for a single "token gay" to show up, and if they haven't shown up yet, characters uninterested in marriage are one place to look.

I agree with your analysis of Jasnah though. Us modern people are likely to say "If you don't like marriage that way, don't do it that way." But Jasnah's culture has a pretty stereotyped marriage, and you either take it or you don't. In a way Jasnah is terribly unlucky. Most Alethi who don't like gender roles can become ardents. Jasnah could marry a man who can read, even one that will cook for her. She could even continue her research. Except for the little problem of ardents being all about religion...

[Crisapx he/him]

I just think that Jasnah simply has yet met her match in a man, she's highly skilled&educated, and a powerful women, it stands to reason that no one she has met has really impressed her, since she must have high standards and knows her value well.

 

It would also make her compatible with Kaladin, he's really unique and stands out, also educated, and intelligent...

[11thorderknight]

I'm less concerned; they're talking about fiction, not people. I'd say it's more like "female character not interested in marriage = token lesbian", because "token lesbian" is something that happens in fiction, whether we like it or not. The more lacking a story is in gay characters, the more likely it is for a single "token gay" to show up, and if they haven't shown up yet, characters uninterested in marriage are one place to look.

I agree with your analysis of Jasnah though. Us modern people are likely to say "If you don't like marriage that way, don't do it that way." But Jasnah's culture has a pretty stereotyped marriage, and you either take it or you don't. In a way Jasnah is terribly unlucky. Most Alethi who don't like gender roles can become ardents. Jasnah could marry a man who can read, even one that will cook for her. She could even continue her research. Except for the little problem of ardents being all about religion...

The great thing about Sanderson is that he doesn't do token characters. He's taken so much effort to make Jasnah a believable, authentic atheist, that I don't think he'd get sloppy and make her a token lesbian just for kicks. Hate to disappoint you guys, but there won't be any "pillow-friends" in the Stormlight Archive, lol.

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

I agree that Jasnah not interested in men=Lesbian would be far too cliché; it's refreshing to have a character who just isn't interested in marriage. Though I most definitely ship Jasnah and Kaladin.

 

However, I'm not so convinced that she doesn't have any traumatic events in her past. Mainly because we've learnt that a person has to have 'cracks in their soul where something else can fit' to become a surge-binder. And I find it unlikely that Gavilar's assassination is said traumatic event, considering she was showing signs of becoming a surge-binder even before that.

 

Now I'm sure that a person could still have cracks in their soul without any traumatic event causing them, but I'm not so sure that's the case here.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig