Identical twins

[skaa he/him]

Basically, you'd get one guy who's always unlucky and another who's always sick, and they'd be grumpy with each other all the time, since the train who'd benefit most from the given attribute would be the one who didn't have to store it.

In case my point about Nicrosil got buried inside my wall of text, let me repeat it using Gold-Nicrosil FICTs. So, we have a Nicroburst-Bloodmaker and an Augur-Soulbearer who are Feruchemically Identical. The point I was trying to make is that there is a way to significantly decrease the amount of time the Bloodmaker has to be sick. Here's the step by step process (where Bob=Nicroburst-Bloodmaker and Sam=Augur-Soulbearer):

1. Bob becomes sick for just 30 minutes (for example) storing Health in a goldmind.

    

2. Bob gives the goldmind with 30 minutes' worth of Health to Sam.

    

3. Sam burns the goldmind, generating (just a wild guess) 5 hours' worth of Compounded Health, assuming a multiplier of 10.

    

4. Instead of using the Compounded Health, Sam stores all of it in his nicrosilminds. He now has 5 hours' worth of Health in, not goldminds, but nicrosilminds.

    

5. Sam gives half of his nicrosilminds, containing 2.5 hours' worth of Health to Bob.

    

6. Bob burns the nicrosilminds and stores Health in goldminds without having to be sick. This is because the Health he's now storing comes from the nicrosilminds, not from his body.

    

7. Repeat 2-6 as needed.

Depending on whether or not stored Investiture within nicrosilminds actually increase when Allomantically burned, Bob would end up with either 2.5 hours or 25 hours worth of Health after the first cycle. Either way, he only had to be sick for 30 minutes for both him and Sam to get tons of Health. And as long as they still have some Health left in either a goldmind or a nicrosilmind, they can continue doing Steps 2-6 (or Steps 5,6,2,3,4) indefinitely. Bob never has to be sick to store Health ever again.

All this assumes that Nicrosil Feruchemy works like Tin or Copper Feruchemy, i.e. the "flavor" of the attribute remains when storing. The process becomes slightly more complicated if we follow the MAG rules, where nicrosilminds only contain "raw" Investiture. In that case, both Bob and Sam will need to have some goldmind reserves to "flavor" the Investiture coming from the nicrosilminds. Either way, they still get much more stored Health than other kinds of Gold FICTs, and are only slightly less awesome than a single Double Gold Twinborn like Miles.

This process benefits any form of Feruchemy where storing usually leaves the user at a disadvantage (Steel, Pewter, Tin, Zinc, Aluminum, Chromium, Gold, and Electrum).

Edited December 13, 2015 by skaa

[Oversleep]

I don't think nicrosil is universal container - it just stores Investiture (on Scadrial, there isn't any visible Investiture, but probably you can store Breath or Stormlight).
Well, things my change when we see harmonium - at least according to my theory.

[skaa he/him]

I don't think nicrosil is universal container - it just stores Investiture (on Scadrial, there isn't any visible Investiture, but probably you can store Breath or Stormlight).

 

Feruchemical attributes stored in metalminds (as well as Hemalurgic charges in spikes) are Investiture.

 

 

CHAOS

This one is a personal favor... See, for metals that have Feruchemy, this verb is "charge". A metal is Feruchemically charged. But, you've been using the term "charge" for Hemalurgic metals, too, which I think is confusing. Before HoA I called Hemalurgic metals "Imbued" metals. I humbly petition to have that be the official term, because it's just confusing otherwise.

BRADON SANDERSON

The Seventeenth Shard members use the term of Invest for all of those type of things. However, what they use in world is different on each world. For example WoK is infuse.

 

 

You may also want to read this discussion on the steelpushing objects that have Investiture, where Brandon specifically states that metalminds have Investiture.

 

Note that the Ars Arcanum of AoL and SoS explicitly say that the people of Terris do use Nicrosil Feruchemy (though they don't fully understand it), so it's wrong to say that there's nothing on Scadrial to store in nicrosilminds.

 

And, of course, there's the MAG's rules for Nicrosil Feruchemy that supposedly had some input from Brandon (though not fully canon unless they appear in future Mistborn novels), which indicate that any Feruchemical attribute can be stored in a nicrosilmind.

Edited December 13, 2015 by skaa

[Oversleep]

I know that feruchemical and hemalurgical charge is Investiture. But nobody said you can store anything in nicrosil. On Scadrial, I suppose you can store mists (?), because of the analogy to Stormlight and Breaths. Mists are the closest to the thing you can point your finger at and say "That's Investiture".

Maybe Soulbearers store parts of their own soul? Nothing is confirmed, everything is possible.

[skaa he/him]

I know that feruchemical and hemalurgical charge is Investiture. But nobody said you can store anything in nicrosil. On Scadrial, I suppose you can store mists (?), because of the analogy to Stormlight and Breaths. Mists are the closest to the thing you can point your finger at and say "That's Investiture".

Maybe Soulbearers store parts of their own soul? Nothing is confirmed, everything is possible.

Sorry, I got confused when you said that Nicrosil Feruchemy can't store other Feruchemical attributes because it "just stores Investiture". I thought you didn't know that Feruchemical charges were Investiture. But since you know of that fact, I'm confused as to why you don't think stuff like Feruchemical Health can be stored by Nicrosil Feruchemy. It's still Investiture, so why not?

I also apologize for bringing up the Terris people's use of Nicrosil Feruchemy, since I don't really think they can experiment with storing Feruchemical attributes in nicrosilminds if there aren't any Full Feruchemists left. I don't actually believe Feruchemically Identical people exist in the current timeline, so they can't perform that research either. Metalmind sharing is just an theoretical possibility that people on this thread have been talking about.

I think you're right about current Soulbearers storing part of their souls. I wonder what a person with a divided soul looks like. (And please, don't say Voldemort! )

Edited December 14, 2015 by skaa

[Oversleep]

Sorry, I got confused when you said that Nicrosil Feruchemy can't store other Feruchemical attributes because it "just stores Investiture". I thought you didn't know that Feruchemical charges were Investiture. But since you know of that fact, I'm confused as to why you don't think stuff like Feruchemical Health can be stored by Nicrosil Feruchemy. It's still Investiture, so why not?

Because it stores Investiture. Nor weight nor health nor speed is Investiture. Sure, the charge may be in the form of the Investiture, but that's not what you stored and not what you will get back. So the only case when you store and tap Investiture is nicrosil.

Soon I will post a theory about Feruchemy, maybe I will be able to better explain my view.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Oversleep

[skaa he/him]

I look forward to reading that Feruchemy theory. I personally don't see how being "in the form of Investiture" would not be Investiture, so I'm excited to see how you'll explain that.

My understanding is that Feruchemical storage is just a matter of turning an attribute (Health, Luck, etc.) into magical energy (a.k.a. Investiture) with a specific "flavor", and Investing that energy into metal. This is possible because as Sazed implied in HoA, Realmatic objects and energy are equivalent (just like mass and energy are equivalent IRL).

As my mind has expanded, I’ve come to realize that objects and energy are actually composed of the very same things, and can change state from one to another.

To bring my L-Theory into this, Duralumin Feruchemical storage (for example) is like taking Connection strings from one's Spiritual aspect, looping them into L bosons that are attuned to their original form, and then emitting those L bosons towards a metal target. A nicrosilmind should be able to store those L bosons even though they are attuned to Connection simply because they are still quanta of Investiture.

Edited December 14, 2015 by skaa

[Melriken]

Because it stores Investiture. Nor weight nor health nor speed is Investiture. Sure, the charge may be in the form of the Investiture, but that's not what you stored and not what you will get back. So the only case when you store and tap Investiture is nicrosil.

Soon I will post a theory about Feruchemy, maybe I will be able to better explain my view.

If I understand your stance it is that the energy reserve in a Goldmind is Investiture but when you tap a gold mind you don't get investiture out, rather you get out raw health. So you can't store that health in a Nicromind.

So then couldn't you take a Goldmind and move that investiture over to a Nicromind without taping the Goldmind? You would need to move it back to a Goldmind before you could tap it for healing. Additionally since the twin who could burn gold couldn't store in a gold mind and the nicro burning twin couldn't store in a Nicromind they couldn't actually compound. Unless storing in a Goldmind while tapping from a Nicromind would let you store health without getting sick, then you could compound.

Given that a Tinmind that stored sight can't be tapped for hearing I have to think that a Nicromind that is storing 'Goldmind' can't be tapped for anything but filling a Goldmind, but that should let it be burned to quickfill a Goldmind, and that would allow compounding. You can only compound on the 'burn nicro and fill Goldmind' side, burning a Goldmind would create health, not investiture with a health flavor so the other side is 'move Goldmind investiture into a Nicromind' not using Allomancy at all.

[Melriken]

I look forward to reading that Feruchemy theory. I personally don't see how being "in the form of Investiture" would not be Investiture, so I'm excited to see how you'll explain that.

My understanding is that Feruchemical storage is just a matter of turning an attribute (Health, Luck, etc.) into magical energy (a.k.a. Investiture) with a specific "flavor", and Investing that energy into metal. This is possible because as Sazed implied in HoA, Realmatic objects and energy are equivalent (just like mass and energy are equivalent IRL).

To bring my L-Theory into this, Duralumin Feruchemical storage (for example) is like taking Connection strings from one's Spiritual aspect, looping them into L bosons that are attuned to their original form, and then emitting those L bosons towards a metal target. A nicrosilmind should be able to store those L bosons even though they are attuned to Connection simply because they are still quanta of Investiture.

So what you are saying is that a character who can burn gold and store in Nicro wouldn't be able to store health in a Nicromind because he can't make L-bosons with a Health charge (aka can't store in a Goldmind) but a full Ferochemist could store anything in a Nicromind?

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

So what you are saying is that a character who can burn gold and store in Nicro wouldn't be able to store health in a Nicromind because he can't make L-bosons with a Health charge (aka can't store in a Goldmind) but a full Ferochemist could store anything in a Nicromind?

 

 

That depends on how nicrominds work, a question that has been consistently RAFO'd.

 

I think it likely that a full feruchemist could move the charge from another metalmind to a nicromind and vice versa. But the other metalminds are a necessary step in either direction.

[Stormgate he/him]

I predict that we will decide that the answer is one of about 5 different theories, then Sanderson is going to show us a Nirosil Ferring and all our theories will be off.

[skaa he/him]

So what you are saying is that a character who can burn gold and store in Nicro wouldn't be able to store health in a Nicromind because he can't make L-bosons with a Health charge (aka can't store in a Goldmind) but a full Ferochemist could store anything in a Nicromind?

That's the theory, yes. I think a Nicrosil Feruchemist can store any Investiture he has access to. Being a Full Feruchemist greatly expands that list. Being Feruchemically Identical to another Feruchemist also expands it, depending on the type of Feruchemist that other person is.

@Stormgate: Probably.

Edited December 16, 2015 by skaa

[Kaymyth she/her]

Yes, Gold-Nicrosil and Chromium-Nicrosil FICTs would be pretty cool, but I chose Steel and Pewter as examples because they have very useful Allomantic properties that also benefit from a Nicroburst. Gold Allomancy isn't very useful, and I don't see how boosting a Leecher would do any good.

Edit: Wait... boosting a Leecher would let him destroy an enemy's Hemalurgic spikes almost instantly (assuming the Leecher has enough chromium). Yeah, that'd be pretty handy.

 

I think we still need to get a WoB to pin down whether a Leecher is capable of burning out spikes the target is not capable of burning themselves.  We don't know exactly how they target the metals, so there are a few possibilities:

 

1)  The Leecher targets the metals in their victim's system directly.  All burn off (in the appropriate order, as applicable).

 

2)  The Leecher targets the Allomancer to force the victim to burn out their metals.  (This seems to be a lot more likely to be how Nicrosil would work and is a rather questionable scenario for Chromium.)

 

3)  The Leecher targets the metals directly, but uses the victim's own power somehow to "find" them.  In this scenario, the Leecher can only "reach" the metals that the victim is able to sense.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Kaymyth

[skaa he/him]

Bands of Mourning spoiler

From BoM Chapter 3, we now know that nicrosilminds preserve the form of Investiture stored inside of it. For example, storing the bit of your soul that grants Feruchemical ability inside a nicrosilmind while in a "blank Identity" state would allow another to tap that nicrosilmind and become a Feruchemist. Storing Allomantic ability could let someone else become an Allomancer.

 

So I guess my idea about Nicrosil FICTs should work.

 

Also, apparently Aluminum Feruchemy does allow access to metalminds that aren't yours, and can be used to create universally accessible metalminds. So you don't have to look for someone Feruchemically Identical to you if you're already a Trueself.

 

Unless what VenDell said is wrong (which, come to think of it, is still possible).

Edited December 23, 2015 by skaa

[Ari he/him]

If this were true, then a Feruchemist who has been Forged should still be able to access his metalminds. However, a Forged Feruchemist cannot.

 

To be fair, the implication there is that Forging yourself to be a significantly different person significantly changes your spritweb and thus bars you from accessing your pre-Forgery metalminds. (You could, presumably, make new ones while Forged that you couldn't access while unForged, assuming you didn't succeed in Forging away your Feruchemy) That doesn't mean that someone with a very similar spritweb might not be able to access your metalminds to some degree.

 

I'm not too comfortable with this. Does your identity change at all if you go through a traumatic event? I don't know if we can say that for sure either way. Your name doesn't change just because you almost die, nor does your past change. Your soul can be scarred/broken (as required for Snapping), but I don't think that would cause you to lose access to your metalminds.

 

I wonder if in some sense a "snapshot" is taken of your soul when you store in a metalmind, taken from the time you were born to your current life. And then when you later tap a metalmind, it only looks at that section of your soul, so if for some reason you became an entirely different person/got spiked/became a Radiant or whatever, the metalmind doesn't think you're any different because it only looks at a small part of your soul.

 

But that seems quite contrived... I may as well link to my "Identity repels Identity" theory for how metalminds work and why Feruchemical aluminum might allow you to access someone else's metalminds. (Speaking of, I need to rewrite that since I think like 80% of it is wrong.)

 

 

I agree with this idea. I think this would be hard to do, but this seems likely to be theoretically possible.

 

We have WoB that traumatic events introduce cracks in the spiritweb that magic can get into, so in terms of Cosmere metaphysics, the answer would seem to be yes, that siginificant life events do change your spiritweb to some extent. We don't know if those changes extend beyond cracking the spiritweb, however- it could be that your spiritweb is set by parts of your personality that largely don't change, outside of things like brain damage, which should presumably change your spiritweb dramatically the same way it changes your personality.

 

It could be that your spritweb is something that grows as you get older, as new fundamental events happen in your life that define your identity as a whole and make it more nuanced, but that investiture is keyed to your spiritweb when you use it, so it can still "fit inside" the centre of your current spiritweb, with the inside events from when you're younger still acting as a valid key for metalminds created when you were younger. We'd need more realmatics to understand really, but that would be my guess as to how it works.

 

 

Bands of Mourning spoiler

From BoM Chapter 3, we now know that nicrosilminds preserve the form of Investiture stored inside of it. For example, storing the bit of your soul that grants Feruchemical ability inside a nicrosilmind while in a "blank Identity" state would allow another to tap that nicrosilmind and become a Feruchemist. Storing Allomantic ability could let someone else become an Allomancer.

 

So I guess my idea about Nicrosil FICTs should work.

 

Also, apparently Aluminum Feruchemy does allow access to metalminds that aren't yours, and can be used to create universally accessible metalminds. So you don't have to look for someone Feruchemically Identical to you if you're already a Trueself.

 

Unless what VenDell said is wrong (which, come to think of it, is still possible).

 

Spoilers for Bands of Mourning sample chapters are in this reply: (specifically, related to Chapter Three)

I'm relatively certain that Ven'Dell speculating at that point regarding how identity MIGHT work, based on persistent legends that the Lord Ruler's bracers give you access to his powers. (ie. all feruchemical and allomantic abilities at once, in Ven'Dell's speculation)

 

He does not say Harmony has disclosed how identity works, which would mean they'd know for sure. Investiture may potentially store your entire ability to use a type of investiture as Ven'Dell speculates, or the raw power of investiture without any particular focus, allowing a Full Feruchemist to store investiture from one of his metalminds and then tap it to fuel a different feruchemical or allomantic ability, or it might store a specific type of investiture but not the ability to use it- so a Full Feruchemist with at least one allomantic power could burn a metal and store the effect directly into their own Nicrosilmind, and be able to tap that Nicrosilmind later to use their allomantic power without burning a metal, presuming they hadn't lost it hemalurgically. I can also see Nicrosilminds potentially acting as part of a "mistfabrial," that utilises stored investiture to release a particular allomantic or feruchemical effect. I'd say we're still at RAFO stage on how feruchemical Investiture works.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Ari

[skaa he/him]

Spoilers for Bands of Mourning sample chapters are in this reply: (specifically, related to Chapter Three)

I'm relatively certain that Ven'Dell speculating at that point regarding how identity MIGHT work, based on persistent legends that the Lord Ruler's bracers give you access to his powers. (ie. all feruchemical and allomantic abilities at once, in Ven'Dell's speculation)

...

I'd say we're still at RAFO stage on how feruchemical Investiture works.

 

Sure. But what he said was relevant to our discussion here, so I mentioned it. We'll know soon enough how close his statements are to the truth.

[Ari he/him]

Totally.

 

(additional spoilers regarding the sample chapters)

And even if Investiture works in one of the other ways I speculate about, if Ven'Dell is right about how storing Identity simultaneously with any other Feruchemical property works, it's possible you could still end up with a pair of bracers that give you access to all 32 base metallic abilities, as you might be able to tap the Lord Ruler's identity, which might grant you access to his abilities temporarily. (although you'd have to be tapping his identity to use any additional Feruchemical stores you made if that were the case)