New theory on Odium.

[Looter he/him]

So I have seen several mentions of Harmony in relation to his power vs. Odium and followed that thought for a while. It didn't seem to make sense that in a brandon sanderson book the bad guy may be considerably less powerful than an equivalent good guy.  Especially since Odium has on multiple occasions been said to detest everything so much he would not even take another Shard of Adonalisium to become more powerful because it would make him less hateful. 

  So the Theory is what if there is another shard, say the one held by Bavadin, that in a way loosed Odium on his opponents to weaken many but has a backup plan for when Rayse fails due to the nature of hate leaving someone blind to certain dangers.

  What if that other shard already has bonded some other murdered shards and in taking Odium would fulfill a powerful need that it may have in the future and would not be consumed by the nature of Odium. 

  What if the very Oathpact itself was influenced by an outside force that the three rosharan shards could not overwhelm.

  Could something like that be why Odium has now invested so heavily on Roshar unlike any other planet he has been on?

 

I think it would be one of those moments like the freeing of Ruin that would slap you in the face with its misdirection of the true direction of Evil, or in the case of Mistborn the true direction of Ruin.

[bartbug he/him]

I really like the core of this theory. Upvote for you.

[duladen he/him]

Upvote! I think there's a lot of sense in this - I can totally picture Odium as a rabid dog that Bavadin has unleashed on the Shardholders, and the Oathpact might be the leash he uses to contain Odium. Continuing this metaphor, Odium sounds close to Odie... the dog from Garfield... I'll stop.

 

I don't know if we'll be able to answer these questions until we get the published version of White Sand and/or Dragonsteel. Although perhaps the Elantris sequel will give some hints that "someone" has picked up the splintered shards on Sel...

[DocHoliday he/him]

So I have seen several mentions of Harmony in relation to his power vs. Odium and followed that thought for a while. It didn't seem to make sense that in a brandon sanderson book the bad guy may be considerably less powerful than an equivalent good guy. Especially since Odium has on multiple occasions been said to detest everything so much he would not even take another Shard of Adonalisium to become more powerful because it would make him less hateful.

So the Theory is what if there is another shard, say the one held by Bavadin, that in a way loosed Odium on his opponents to weaken many but has a backup plan for when Rayse fails due to the nature of hate leaving someone blind to certain dangers.

What if that other shard already has bonded some other murdered shards and in taking Odium would fulfill a powerful need that it may have in the future and would not be consumed by the nature of Odium.

What if the very Oathpact itself was influenced by an outside force that the three rosharan shards could not overwhelm.

Could something like that be why Odium has now invested so heavily on Roshar unlike any other planet he has been on?

I think it would be one of those moments like the freeing of Ruin that would slap you in the face with its misdirection of the true direction of Evil, or in the case of Mistborn the true direction of Ruin.

So your thinking is that Bavadin is using Rayse to kill Shareholders, then it's gathering up said Shards? Eh...maybe. Epigraphs indicate that Rayse is a loathsome, cunning individual. I translate that to mean, he's a backstabbing "businessman"; smart enough to make sure he comes out on top of whatever happens. A Multi-Shard Holder is not going to end up with him on top.

Odium may hate everyone, that doesn't mean he's oblivious to all else in his hatred.

Upvote! I think there's a lot of sense in this - I can totally picture Odium as a rabid dog that Bavadin has unleashed on the Shardholders, and the Oathpact might be the leash he uses to contain Odium. Continuing this metaphor, Odium sounds close to Odie... the dog from Garfield... I'll stop.

I don't know if we'll be able to answer these questions until we get the published version of White Sand and/or Dragonsteel. Although perhaps the Elantris sequel will give some hints that "someone" has picked up the splintered shards on Sel...

I've always been curious why the Shoad continued to make Elantrians with its Shareholder dead.

EDIT:Grammar corrected so this makes sense.

Edited January 7, 2014 by DocHoliday

[duladen he/him]

So your thinking is that Bavadin is using Rayse to kill Shareholders, then it's gathering up said Shards? Eh...maybe. Epigraphs indicate that Rayse is a loathsome, cunning individual. I translate that to mean, he's a backstabbing "businessman"; smart enough to make sure he comes out on top of whatever happens. A Multi-Shard Holder is not going to end up with him on top.

Odium may hate everyone, that doesn't mean he's oblivious to all else in his hatred.I've always been curious why the Shoad continued to make Elantrians with its Shareholder dead.

Couldn't the intent of his Shard eventually limit his cunning? Blind him with hate?

I'm guessing the Shaod kept taking people because the spiritual power of the Shards was still invested on Sel, just without a Cognitive focus

[Metacognition he/him]

It's an interesting theory and I could definitely see that, but then why is he allowing Odium to shatter so many shards? If this supposed mastermind is controlling Odium and is bonding multiple shards together to make himself/herself stronger, why would he allow or even want Odium to splinter the Shards on Sel? Why let him shatter Honor? If I recall correctly, the reason Odium shatters them is so that no one can pick up the shard again. That seems fairly counter intuitive to the supposed goal if this theory is true. 

[el_warko he/him]

It's an interesting theory and I could definitely see that, but then why is he allowing Odium to shatter so many shards? If this supposed mastermind is controlling Odium and is bonding multiple shards together to make himself/herself stronger, why would he allow or even want Odium to splinter the Shards on Sel? Why let him shatter Honor? If I recall correctly, the reason Odium shatters them is so that no one can pick up the shard again. That seems fairly counter intuitive to the supposed goal if this theory is true. 

 

Apologies, I haven't read Mistborn / Alloy of Law (on my to do list).

 

I would answer your question thus.  There are X number of shards.  I have (a) Shard(s?).  If I splinter the other Shards I become more powerful by virture of there are less Shards remaining. 

 

Given that Shards subvert your character, if you are happy with your character and do not want to change, this is an effctive means of "increasing" your power.

[duladen he/him]

Apologies, I haven't read Mistborn / Alloy of Law (on my to do list).

I would answer your question thus. There are X number of shards. I have (a) Shard(s?). If I splinter the other Shards I become more powerful by virture of there are less Shards remaining.

Given that Shards subvert your character, if you are happy with your character and do not want to change, this is an effctive means of "increasing" your power.

I'd say it increases your relative power or perceived power, but not your absolute power. When Odium splinters shards, he doesn't actually become more powerful, it just makes their group more elite.

[el_warko he/him]

I'd say it increases your relative power or perceived power, but not your absolute power. When Odium splinters shards, he doesn't actually become more powerful, it just makes their group more elite.

 

My point more eloquently put.

[Cayden]

We know so little about the shards really though, for all we know it could be almost Highlander like, and that every time you defeat a shard you gain from it, even if it is only a little.

 

Myself, I dont think raw power matters very much at all when it comes to these sort of beings and based on what ive read I think that Odiums true power is that it is Hatred and inspires Hatred. It doesnt want to conquer or bend you to its will, it just wants you dead and gone. Ruin wanted similar, but he was more interested in an "death by attrition." sort of destruction. Odium seems less bothered by anything even resembling that and more bothered with death and destruction. 

 

Its his mindset which is the danger to other shards. Harmony might be able to stop him with raw power, but it might not. Intent pays a very big part and Odium seems fond of destroying shards by using their own Intent against them. i.e Breaking Honor by making his champions sacrifice one of their own.

 

And finally. Harmony is heavily invested in Scadrial, both Ruin and Preservation invested large parts of themselves in creating life, uniting both the shards would not boost them back up to 100%. Odium from what we know has little to no investiture anywhere, well not enough to make it count.

 

Say that creating a world with life drops you by 40-50% power, then Harmony would be at 100-120% of power, so he might be stronger, but it wont be on a x2 basis. (Myself I think Harmony is probably 30-40% more powerful than Odium) But power alone does not make dictate victory or decide the nature of battle.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Basically, the only obstacles to functional omnipotency for a Shard are Intent, personal small-i-intent, and opposition by other Shards. If the first isn't getting in your way, the second is aligned with the first or withered away, and you've eliminated opposition by other Shards, your only obstacle is time to apply your power with - and you are uncontested and immortal. Also a bit of an chull, cause of all that senseless devastation you're going to unleash out of spite. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I don't know if we'll be able to answer these questions until we get the published version of White Sand and/or Dragonsteel. Although perhaps the Elantris sequel will give some hints that "someone" has picked up the splintered shards on Sel...

Odium may hate everyone, that doesn't mean he's oblivious to all else in his hatred. I've always been curious why the Shoad continued to make Elantrians with its Shareholder dead.

 

In spoiler tags since it is really off-topic:

I sincerely doubt that anyone has taken up Sel's shards between the events of Elantris and its sequel (only ten years or so) and the shards are almost definitely still splintered at the time of Elantris. Also Brandon has given absolutely no indication that they have been un-splintered. As for the Shaod continuing to take people I believe it is because the Shaod is a function of Elantris, as in the aon-equation formed by the Elantrian Metropolitan District facilitates the Shaod in someway. I don't think it required any active participation from Devotion or Dominion, especially since they were likely splintered before Elantris was rediscovered by the Aonics and the first "modern" Elantrians were taken by the Shaod.

[duladen he/him]

 

In spoiler tags since it is really off-topic:

I sincerely doubt that anyone has taken up Sel's shards between the events of Elantris and its sequel (only ten years or so) and the shards are almost definitely still splintered at the time of Elantris. Also Brandon has given absolutely no indication that they have been un-splintered. As for the Shaod continuing to take people I believe it is because the Shaod is a function of Elantris, as in the aon-equation formed by the Elantrian Metropolitan District facilitates the Shaod in someway. I don't think it required any active participation from Devotion or Dominion, especially since they were likely splintered before Elantris was rediscovered by the Aonics and the first "modern" Elantrians were taken by the Shaod.

 

I probably should have prefaced that with a "wild speculation" disclaimer. I don't actually believe we'll be seeing someone pick up one or both of the shards on Sel. As for the off-topic part: 

It's an interesting idea, and I believe it could work with my argument that the spiritual power of the shards still exists, which is probably the force behind the Shaod. However, if the Shaod depended on an aon-equation, wouldn't this have been negated by the chasm?

[Aether he/him]

However, if the Shaod depended on an aon-equation, wouldn't this have been negated by the chasm?

Yes, yes it would, which is why the Elantrians went all leper-zombies on us!

 

It is also possible that the Shaod itself was naturally occurring, and that the original Elantrians somehow amplified or refined this with the creation of Elantris. The Shaod would then naturally keep on despite the appearance of the chasm, but the process would be twisted and broken because the amplifying mechanism stopped working (properly).

[marianmi]

The shards are severely limited by intent and by invested power.

In this regard, I don't think HARMONY will ever attack Odium.

Also, Harmony is much more invested on Scadrial than Odium, so in terms of "available power" Sazed is not 2x more powerful.

[DocHoliday he/him]

The trouble is we don't know how Invested any  Shard is. We can use words like particularly, and very; but facts are this could be the difference between 2% Ruin Investiture and 4% Preservation Investiture.

 

Or 2% Ruin and 30% Preservation. We just don't know how much is alot and what percentage this accounts for of a Shards total ability to Invest.