Can the returned return again?

[Greyswandir]

I'm assuming the answer is no but I'm curious what other people think about this.

[flying_shadow she/her]

Does anyone know if there's a WOB about this?

[Shardbearer he/him]

I highly doubt it.

[Yata he/him]

I don't think that can exist a Re-Returned.

The Returned status is quite fragile, I suppose that a Returned with a fatal wound would die faster than a regular people.

[Charononus]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this,  but a returned is a human soul that gets a splinter added to it and goes back into the body reanimating it and changing it.  

 

I don't think the soul disappears when a returned dies,  and another splinter in theory could hook onto the soul again imo.

 

So the question to me becomes if the process of returning once changes the body too badly for the soul to enter it again.  

 

Of course the soul also has to be willing.  Endowment has to be willing.  So I think I'd rule it as possible,  but extremely unlikely.  

[Landis963 he/him]

It's probably a better return on investment if She just chooses a new person to bring back.

[Charononus]

It's probably a better return on investment if She just chooses a new person to bring back.

Probably.  Like I said I think it's possible it would just take such odd circumstances that I don't see it happening.

[Guest]

If it's possible, I suspect it can only happen if the Returned dies of Death (injury, poison, suffocation, ect), and not because of lack of Breath or granting of Miracle.

 

I wonder if that would then result in a Returned with 2 Splinters that each consumed 1 Breath/week? A double-powered Splinter? Or just a regular Returned?

[Oversleep]

If it's possible, I suspect it can only happen if the Returned dies of Death (injury, poison, suffocation, ect)

Sorry, I couldn't resist

I imagine that the case would be when Endowment tasks the Returned with something very, very important and he dies before accomplishing it. So he is sent back to fulfill his mission.

I am curious what would happen if a Sliver were to be Returned. Like if one of the original Shardholders (because they're from Yolen and seem compatible with all of Shardmagic) died and Endowment Returned him/her.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Oversleep

[Landis963 he/him]

(because they're from Yolen and seem compatible with all of Shardmagic) died and Endowment Returned him/her.

Hoid, at least, was not auto-compatible with AonDor or with Allomancy. We can definitely add the "What happens if Endowment were to return someone who could call themselves a Sliver?" question to the big list.

[CarrotInquisitor]

It's probably a better return on investment if She just chooses a new person to bring back.

A better... *puts on sunglasses*... Return.... yeeeaEAAAH! ! !

[Landis963 he/him]

A better... *puts on sunglasses*... Return.... yeeeaEAAAH! ! !

 

I was wondering if anyone would get that.  

[Greyswandir]

Interesting ideas here, thanks!

[Nightblade]

I think that they would last longer in the cognitive like allomancers do, so there is a possibility that they could come back again.

[Yata he/him]

I think that they would last longer in the cognitive like allomancers do, so there is a possibility that they could come back again.

At the death the bonds will be release. Therefore a Returned at the death became an ordinary Nalthis human because it will lose his Divine Breath.

 

Much more if he uses his DivineBreath to heal someone.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

On 5/9/2016 at 0:25 AM, Yata said:

At the death the bonds will be release. Therefore a Returned at the death became an ordinary Nalthis human because it will lose his Divine Breath.

 

Much more if he uses his DivineBreath to heal someone.

 

I am not so sure. The idea of a splinter sliver has been explained as an "expanding" of the soul. The soul of the Returned who gives up their Divine Breath would already be "stretched" by holding that much Investiture so I think they would last longer in the Cognitive Realm than a normal person. That is, of course, only my opinion - I am unaware if Brandon has definitely answered this question.

edit: fixed a typo that natc pointed out

Edited July 22, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[natc]

That's the sliver definition. Splinters are always described as a non-human entity made of investiture, namely the divine breath itself in this case, and not the Returned. Of course, splinters are also sentient, but I feel we'll figure that out as we learn more about Returned mechanics.

[Cruxer he/him]

[CaptainRyan he/him]

That's the sliver definition. Splinters are always described as a non-human entity made of investiture, namely the divine breath itself in this case, and not the Returned. Of course, splinters are also sentient, but I feel we'll figure that out as we learn more about Returned mechanics.

 

You are absolutely correct on that definition. Typo on my part - thanks for the catch.

 

Holding a Divine Breath, however, most likely results in the same stretching no? We know from M:SH that...

Allomancers last longer before being taken to the "Beyond"

so it stands to reason that a Divine Breath would provide the same benefit.

[Nyali she/her]

Unless I'm mistaken, there's a WoB out there that says that Drabs can't Return. When a Returned dies by giving up their Breath, their body drains of color completely and they die a Drab (also, unless I'm mistaken). So, I don't think a Returned who gives up their Divine Breath is capable of being re-Returned. But, a Returned who dies in other ways, I could see it being possible.

 

It'd be an interesting question to ask!

 

 

But, thinking about it, people Return to fulfill a very specific purpose. They see something in the future that they want to prevent, and they Return to change it. They lose their memories until they approach that point in the future where they intend to die, and the closer they get to that point, the stronger their memories become. At least, that's how it worked for Lightsong and Calmseer, the only two Returned who know that gave up their Divine Breath (and that we know the circumstances of said sacrifice, though Calmseer's is in the annotations, not the text, since no character in the story has any way of knowing the truth).

 

So, if they die before that's done, I could see Endowment letting them try again. I can also see Endowment not giving them another chance after having failed the first time. She's enabling them to try to change fate, but she's not intervening herself, just giving mortals the opportunity. Bringing them back over and over until they succeed would be interfering, and if there's no chance of failure, then choice is meaningless.

 

Spoilers for Bands of Mourning:

It's like what Harmony said, that he could interfere directly with people's lives and control them to stop atrocities from occurring, but that would end free will. If he gives mortals the ability to fight those same atrocities, then he's not removing free will, he's enabling people to save themselves with their own choices for their own reasons. Doing so enhances free will rather than diminishing it. I would expect Endowment to have a similar perspective. So, she gives people the chance to Return and stop some future event, delaying the time of their death.

 

But, if Endowment really wanted to guarantee the success of the Returned, couldn't she just have them tell her what they want done, and she would use the investiture of a Divine Breath to heal the person that the would-be Returned wanted healed when the time came? That would be far easier and waste far less of her available investiture. Bringing them back over and over until they succeed would be the same thing as just doing it herself, which is explicitly what she's trying not to do.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Nyali

[Szmit]

On 26.05.2016 at 10:48 PM, Nyali said:

Unless I'm mistaken, there's a WoB out there that says that Drabs can't Return. When a Returned dies by giving up their Breath, their body drains of color completely and they die a Drab (also, unless I'm mistaken). So, I don't think a Returned who gives up their Divine Breath is capable of being re-Returned. But, a Returned who dies in other ways, I could see it being possible.

 

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But, if Endowment really wanted to guarantee the success of the Returned, couldn't she just have them tell her what they want done, and she would use the investiture of a Divine Breath to heal the person that the would-be Returned wanted healed when the time came? That would be far easier and waste far less of her available investiture. Bringing them back over and over until they succeed would be the same thing as just doing it herself, which is explicitly what she's trying not to do.

About the drab thing, mabye we might consider breath as para-hemalurgy. When a person looses part of a soul, they don't have it in cognitive realm. Maybe when you die with breath you survive longer, and as a drab you disappear almost immediately.

About double returning: imagine you get one job, you do it, then somebody kills you, but then somehow because of your abilities, or something like that, you are the best person to do another job, so you return again.

Plus one thing. Imagine somebody not from nathlis gets a breath and dies. Is he connected enough to return? Since drab already isn't, and this magic is based on endowment?

[Nyali she/her]

7 hours ago, Szmit said:

About the drab thing, mabye we might consider breath as para-hemalurgy. When a person looses part of a soul, they don't have it in cognitive realm. Maybe when you die with breath you survive longer, and as a drab you disappear almost immediately.

About double returning: imagine you get one job, you do it, then somebody kills you, but then somehow because of your abilities, or something like that, you are the best person to do another job, so you return again.

Plus one thing. Imagine somebody not from nathlis gets a breath and dies. Is he connected enough to return? Since drab already isn't, and this magic is based on endowment?

I could be totally wrong, but my take on it is that you don't need "breath" to Return, you just need some innate Investiture that Endowment can use to fuel the transfer of a Splinter from her to your spiritweb. Drabs have no innate investiture, and nor does someone who died from giving up all of their Breath (a Returned who gives away their Divine Breath dies as a drab, so if Drabs can't Return, then Returned who use up their Breath definitely can't Re-Return).

But, Scadrialans all have a piece of Preservation in them, and Rosharans are permeated with tiny little bits of Investiture from all the highstorms, and Threndites have to have something going on for them to be able to be transformed into Cognitive Shadows so easily, and I think Selish people have strong enough Connection to their country that it allows investiture to flow from the Dor to them naturally.

 

Though, I do still stand by my idea that Endowment wouldn't Re-Return a dead Returned even if she could, because that's getting into the "why doesn't Endowment just go down to Nalthis and do everything herself" situation. If a Shard doesn't want mortals to have free will, the Shard would just do everything themselves as far as they could. Free will requires a Shard to only interfere in small, clearly defined ways within specific limits.

And if Endowment is all about giving people the power to change the future and choose their own fate and so on, giving them infinite lives to accomplish it removes all meaning from that gift. At that point, it becomes not a gift, but an ultimatum.

 

But, again, this is just how I see it. I could see arguments to support Endowment under very specific circumstances wanting to Re-Return a Returned...

 

[Szmit]

22 hours ago, Nyali said:

I could be totally wrong, but my take on it is that you don't need "breath" to Return, you just need some innate Investiture that Endowment can use to fuel the transfer of a Splinter from her to your spiritweb. Drabs have no innate investiture, and nor does someone who died from giving up all of their Breath (a Returned who gives away their Divine Breath dies as a drab, so if Drabs can't Return, then Returned who use up their Breath definitely can't Re-Return).

(1)But, Scadrialans all have a piece of Preservation in them, and Rosharans are permeated with tiny little bits of Investiture from all the highstorms, and Threndites have to have something going on for them to be able to be transformed into Cognitive Shadows so easily, and I think Selish people have strong enough Connection to their country that it allows investiture to flow from the Dor to them naturally.

 

(2)Though, I do still stand by my idea that Endowment wouldn't Re-Return a dead Returned even if she could, because that's getting into the "why doesn't Endowment just go down to Nalthis and do everything herself" situation. If a Shard doesn't want mortals to have free will, the Shard would just do everything themselves as far as they could. Free will requires a Shard to only interfere in small, clearly defined ways within specific limits.

And if Endowment is all about giving people the power to change the future and choose their own fate and so on, giving them infinite lives to accomplish it removes all meaning from that gift. At that point, it becomes not a gift, but an ultimatum.

 

But, again, this is just how I see it. I could see arguments to support Endowment under very specific circumstances wanting to Re-Return a Returned...

 

(1) I do belive Endowment could return a Scadrian, Rosharian, or prety much anyone who has enough investiture in their soul, to stay for some time after death (Drabs are said to be only people we've seen withought investiture at all), as long as they are on her planet, although I don't think she would do this, when they have no connection to her (there is something similar in Mistborn Secret History).

(2) I understand that he wouldn't return him again to help him with his job, but what if he has done his job, and she would want him to do another one?

Like for example: "Hey! Thank you that you stopped this war from happening, but you know what would be great? If you returned once again and prevented this disease from becoming an epidemic! I know it's a lot to ask, but you are the best doctor I have on hand!"

[Yata he/him]

59 minutes ago, Szmit said:

(1) I do belive Endowment could return a Scadrian, Rosharian, or prety much anyone who has enough investiture in their soul, to stay for some time after death (Drabs are said to be only people we've seen withought investiture at all), as long as they are on her planet, although I don't think she would do this, when they have no connection to her (there is something similar in Mistborn Secret History).

We have a WoB who says that returns from someone not for Nalthis is quite impossible.

[Nyali she/her]

1 hour ago, Szmit said:

(2) I understand that he wouldn't return him again to help him with his job, but what if he has done his job, and she would want him to do another one?

Like for example: "Hey! Thank you that you stopped this war from happening, but you know what would be great? If you returned once again and prevented this disease from becoming an epidemic! I know it's a lot to ask, but you are the best doctor I have on hand!"

Except that's not how Returning works. People don't Return to do what Endowment wants, people Return to change the future in a way that they wish to change it, usually to fulfill a personal goal (like Calmseeker saving her relative from the same disease that killed her when she comes down with it later in life). Sure, some people Returned to prevent a giant war, but that wasn't at Endowment's request. They're just people who died, saw tragedy in the future, decided they wanted to do something about it, and Endowment offered to give them the power to change it.