Allomancy in Combination with other magic

[Thunder_93]

Hi everyone,

 

so at first, this should be a topic just for speculation and wild theories

Probably it was already discussed, but I didn't find anything...

So, we know Allomancy with Ferrochemy has pretty cool effects.

As well we know (Sanderson said that in a Interwiew) burning an hemalurgic charged spike would have strange effects (no idea what tough).

 

So, what if Allomancy get's combined with other magic-systems:

-What happens if you burn a metal containing one or multiple breaths? What would happen if you actually burn Nightblood? This now is really wild (but funny, in my opinion) speculation: I believe Sanderson mentioned, in combination of Duralumin and Nicrosil you could force an Inquisitor to burn Metals outside his stomache (his spikes) and kill him. So, why not use Duralumin in such a strong way, to burn Nightblood in your hands? Or, burn Duralumin and Chromium to burn Nightblood in Non-Allomancer hands? As Chromium just whipes metalreserves, and doesn't burn them, and you use it on an other target, i believe it would work on non Allomancers too. They just wouldn't recognize any difference.

 

Sorry, step back again from Nightblood and burning things out of your stomach: What might happen if you burn a metal containing breaths? Nothing? Multiplying breaths? Some other amazing effects? I honestly can't imagine nothing special would happen...

 

-Allomancy with Radiant Knights: That's even harder I think, as you can't store Stormlight in metal... But for example, a Windrunner who could pull on metals, could make a multiple-lashing on a coin, so it falls in a direction, and pull himself to it, so he "falls" with the coin (multiple lashing required, so the coin doesn't get pulled to person). Maybe, as the coin is much lighter, it would save him a lot of Stormlight, instead of lashing himself... Or he could of course help a Allomancer-Friend to fly with him...

 

And then a little in another direction again, but still combining magic-systems: As much as i know, at Nightbloods creation they used normal steel - but what if they used another metal, for example, a god-metal like Atium or Lerarium? What difference would that have made, and what, if you burn that then? I mean, a person who burns awoken Lerasium surely wouldn't become just a normal Mistborn

 

So, any other wild-speculations like mine? Anything about my ideas, maybe they're completly stupid, who knows... but as i browsed a little on this forum, i think there aren't "too wild-speculations" in this forum

Edited November 10, 2015 by Thunder_93

[skaa]

Burning a regular metal object that contains the Breaths of another person (e.g. Nightblood) would be like burning a metalmind that isn't yours. Assuming the metal is one of the sixteen Allomantic metals, you would just get that metal's Allomantic effect.
 
This is what Brandon said specifically about Nightblood's case:
 

Q: Could wax, vin, or TLR burn nightblood?
A: (paraphrased) Firstly, you're assuming Nightblood is not allomantically inert (he didnt say if it was or not), but if it was, it would be like trying to burn someone else's metalmind.

 
Now... if the Breaths in the metal are yours (i.e. you were the one who transferred Breath to the metal, and you didn't put enough to actually Awaken it into sentience), then that might produce a more interesting effect. I speculate that it will allow you to temporarily experience higher Heightenings until you stop burning or the metal runs out. Of course, whatever the effect is, you won't get any of that Breath back afterwards (though if you're also a Feruchemist, you might be able to store the compounded BioChromatic Investiture in a metalmind, you lucky person you!).

 

As for Stormlight, I suppose you could burn a piece of metal that is actively infused with a Surge, e.g. Gravitation. I'd guess the effect would again depend on who infused that metal. And again, this might not be too useful unless you could store the compounded Surge that is released.

 

If you could somehow trick a poor Nahel spren into transforming as a tiny metal bead... Nah! Too silly.

 

I have a feeling that metal infused with Selish Investiture (e.g. via AonDor or Soul Forgery) cannot be burned without destroying the Form required by Selish Investiture, so that probably won't produce anything worthwhile.

 

Don't burn silver in the Forests of Hell in Threnody. That's probably an unspoken Fourth Simple Rule there meant only for Worldhoppers, because it's just plain stupid to burn an Allomantically inert metal that protects you from the local malevolent Cognitive Shadows.

Edited November 10, 2015 by skaa

[Thunder_93]

That the breaths have been given to you, before you use them to put in an object and burn it then, makes sense.

But why not put enough in to actually awaken it? It just depends how you awaken it, you could just tell it "Let me burn you" or just something like that. Could have even weirder effects, as you burn something that's... kind off alive.

 

I personally don't agree that you'd have to be a feruchemist to get any advantage over a longer time (when you stop burning it). Awakeners store breath in themself, not in a metalmind. So, if you look at it like that, the human body itself is kinda like the metalmind. So, if you could burn it, why wouldn't you be able to store them inside of you? I know, it seems like to easy, as you could get this way infinity breaths... but I really don't see why you shouldn't be able to store them, if that even is the effect of burning it. Probably you're right, and you just get to a higher Heightening without actually having enough breaths. About Nightblood... would be interesting then if Vasher would swallow Lerasium, and then burn it Or a Mistborn/Awakener creates Nightblood V2.0 out of Atium, and burns it whatever, so many options of which I sadly think we wont actually see it in books... or way not all possibilities...

 

For the stormlight, when you'd burn something infused with a Surge (let's stay at Gravitation) it might be useful without being able to store it. If a "single lash" takes a specific amount of Stormlight, a double, or even triple lashing will cost you the same factor more, correct? So if you burn it, I guess you'll get a "stronger lashing" back, same as Feruchemy. You could directly charge something else with it. So, in a battle, instead of infusing something directly with a 10-Lashing and use a hell lot of stormlight, use your Whatever-Metal-Bead, that's charged with a single-lashing, burn it, and charge whatever you wanted then with a 10-Lashing. Could save a lot of stormlight.

 

Burning silver in the Forests of Hell sounds just... wrong, i agree, you need your silver there for other purposes (specially since it isn't one of the 16 Allomantic Metals, right?) but who knows, maybe it would have great effects on that planet.

 

Any other wild-fantasies, how you could combine magic-systems?

And even if you couldn't enhance the Magic-Systems with each other... Think about: What could easily something as strong as The Lord Ruler? An Allomancer-Feruchemist-Windrunner, on 10 Heightening even without enhancing his breaths with Allomancy, he'd be super powerful

[skaa]

That the breaths have been given to you, before you use them to put in an object and burn it then, makes sense.

But why not put enough in to actually awaken it? It just depends how you awaken it, you could just tell it "Let me burn you" or just something like that. Could have even weirder effects, as you burn something that's... kind off alive.

 

My thought is that once an Awakened object becomes sentient, the Breaths you put in it is no longer "yours", because they have become part of a person separate from you. For the same reason that you cannot claim ownership of a Breath you've given another human being, you cannot claim ownership of the Breaths you've given a sentient Awakened object.

 

 

I personally don't agree that you'd have to be a feruchemist to get any advantage over a longer time (when you stop burning it). Awakeners store breath in themself, not in a metalmind. So, if you look at it like that, the human body itself is kinda like the metalmind. So, if you could burn it, why wouldn't you be able to store them inside of you?

 

The difference is that unlike Command-based Awakening, which explicitly sticks Investiture on a target object and leaves it there, Allomancy basically just passes Investiture through a body; it normally doesn't stick around unless you trap it before it leaves. I think this is true even for Allomantic power that's been given a non-Allomantic "flavor", as in the case of Feruchemical Compounding. Remember, there is a distinct difference between a Feruchemist's body and his metalminds: he can store Compounded attributes in his metalminds indefinitely, but within his body these attributes fade over time.

 

If you are correct that BioChromatic Compounding still results in "sticky" Investiture, then that's very handy. But I think I'll invoke Sanderson's Second Law on that one, at least for now.

 

 

For the stormlight, when you'd burn something infused with a Surge (let's stay at Gravitation) it might be useful without being able to store it. If a "single lash" takes a specific amount of Stormlight, a double, or even triple lashing will cost you the same factor more, correct? So if you burn it, I guess you'll get a "stronger lashing" back, same as Feruchemy. You could directly charge something else with it. So, in a battle, instead of infusing something directly with a 10-Lashing and use a hell lot of stormlight, use your Whatever-Metal-Bead, that's charged with a single-lashing, burn it, and charge whatever you wanted then with a 10-Lashing. Could save a lot of stormlight.

 

I've thought of this, too. I was hesitant to describe this possibility earlier because... actually, I forgot my reasons.

 

Maybe I should get some sleep first. #TimeZoneProblems

Edited November 10, 2015 by skaa

[Thunder_93]

Haha, well, then you probably should go get your sleep

 

About the awakened objects:

You say, the breath doesn't belong any longer to you, as the object is "alive" ones awakened. But the Awakener is able to call his breath back, and leave the awakened object "dead". When it isn't your breatj, for example, the breath of another Awakener, he has to give it by will to you. You can't command his breath to come to you, so this means to me, the breath in an awakened Object is still yours.

 

But I imagine it pretty funny to watch an Allomancer-Windrunner trying to swallow an infused bead of metal (I mean, to much lashing in the same direction as the planet's gravitiy, and it could damage your organs at swallowing...) which is floating around or falling in a wrong direction

[KidWayne]

I wonder what effect an allomancer+surgebinder holding stormlight would have on his allomancy. Remember, Brandon has told us that when you mix magics you get the sum of those magics plus an effect (kind of like a bonus). I imagine that this would supply extra investiture which would increase the power of the allomancy much like Vin's hemalurgically-charged earring boosted her bronze allomancy.

The way I see it, allomancy's strength is dependent on the level/quantity of investiture (spiritual), because it obviously doesn't have anything to do with the amount or quality of the metals (physical) or the intentions/determination of the allomancer (Cognitive, see Vin's steel-pushing contest with Keliser for proof).

Further evidence: we have an allomantic power hierarchy that appears to be based on how connected you are to an ancestor who had an infusion of Preservation's investiture...

• Strongest: Drawing on this Mist
• Stronger still: Consuming a bead of Lerasium 
• Stronger: Being a direct descendent of a Lerasium-powered Mistborn
• Strong: A mistborn who was a later generation descendent of a previous generation Mistborn (not lerasium-powered)
• Relatively Strong: Random mistborn born from two mistings that are descendants of Mistborn within the last 2 or 3 generations.
• Not so strong: Noble-blooded mistings
• Weak: Noble-blooded mistings
• Weaker: Half-blooded mistings
• Weaker Still: Skaa-blooded mistings
• Weakest: Un-snapped allomancers

SIDE NOTE > I'm not sure how the power level of Mistings compares to Mistborn though. For example, the Lord Prelin had three kids by Vin's mom. Let's assume all three kids survive, but that Vin is the only Mistborn and the other two are a coinshot (Reen) and a soother (Vin's little sister). Would Reen's raw/undeveloped steel powers exceed Vin's? Would Vin's sister's raw/undeveloped Brass powers be on par with Breeze and would her powers be greater than, equal to, or less than Vin's?

Anyone care to speculate on what the bonus effect would be for an allomancer+surgebinder? Do you think it would depend on the type of surgebinder, the type of allomancer, or both?

Edited November 10, 2015 by KidWayne

[skaa]

Haha, well, then you probably should go get your sleep

About the awakened objects:

You say, the breath doesn't belong any longer to you, as the object is "alive" ones awakened. But the Awakener is able to call his breath back, and leave the awakened object "dead". When it isn't your breatj, for example, the breath of another Awakener, he has to give it by will to you. You can't command his breath to come to you, so this means to me, the breath in an awakened Object is still yours.

You're forgetting the distinction between a Type III BioChromatic entity and a Type IV. By "Awakened object becomes sentient", I was referring to Type IV. Of course, my idea that you can't call your Breath back from a Type IV entity is pure speculation, but I think it makes sense. You've created a new thinking person, so the Breaths inside it should start behaving as Breaths do inside any other person and not be easily retrieved by their previous owner. The entity owns the Breaths now.

Edited November 12, 2015 by skaa

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Interesting topic of speculation.

 

Something that has to be kept in mind when theorizing on this is that the ratio of "10 times more power" is something that applies to Feruchemy. A magic system that uses relatively little power to begin with. For all we know, combining Allomancy with stormlight gives the exact same power as using stormlight by itself, or maybe twice the power, or only half.

 

I'll take a shot at combining Allomancy with the Gravitation surge assuming similar amounts of power are invested as released.

 

From compounding (Allomancy+Feruchemy) we know that an invested metal can overwrite the signature that determines which effect you get from burning it.

So let's say you infuse a flake of metal with stormlight and give it a basic lashing downward, doubling it's weight, and then burn it.

Disregarding whether the stormlight has to be infused by the allomancer or not, we don't really have any way of telling how the source of Allomantic power (Preservation) would interpret the lashing.

 

It could say "This piece of metal is twice as heavy as normal, the power I'll give is to make heavier."

And that's not even taking into account of whether the power granted is internal or external, does burning that metal make yourself heavier or something you touch (probably has to be metal, this is Allomancy after all). This could depend on whether the metal you lashed is normally internal or external.

With this logic burning a metal that was lashed upwards could make something weightless (again, either an object or the allomancer him- or herself). Burning a metal that was lashed sideways would be pretty hilarious: burn it and you smash into a wall.

 

If the power of Preservation is a bit smarter about it, it could realize "This piece of metal has had it's gravity altered, that's the power I'll give."

But if you make that power external it would be pretty much the same as Iron and Steel, especially since IMO Preservation is likely to give a power as close as possible to what it already knows, so why bother? (unless you're a misting of course, who wants to fly)

The internal version could be interesting, though, like a basic lashing that only works on yourself.

 

What might be really interesting is if the piece of infused metal were Lerasium.

You could permanently get the ability to use a surge, the question is how you'd fuel it. Would you still need to burn a metal, or would you also gain the ability to suck in stormlight?

 

 

 

 

 

SIDE NOTE > I'm not sure how the power level of Mistings compares to Mistborn though. For example, the Lord Prelin had three kids by Vin's mom. Let's assume all three kids survive, but that Vin is the only Mistborn and the other two are a coinshot (Reen) and a soother (Vin's little sister). Would Reen's raw/undeveloped steel powers exceed Vin's? Would Vin's sister's raw/undeveloped Brass powers be on par with Breeze and would her powers be greater than, equal to, or less than Vin's?

 

Vin's mom had 2 kids with the Lord Prelan, not 3. So Reen was not a misting of any kind, and Vin's sister was a Seeker, that's where Vin got her extra power with Bronze via her earring, which allowed her to pierce copperclouds. I know you said "assume", but it bothered me.