Surgebinding vs Allomancy

[Voidus]

For how the Healing works I don't think. Unless the Stormlight Healing is a lot of different of the Feruchemical Healing.

Miles may survive without his head (with enough Healing) and I suppose that a Surgebinder may do the same with a lot of Stormlight

It's explicitly mentioned that it can.

Which is understandable, feruchemical healing of that level can only be accomplished through compounding it's rare and so it's not a big deal if its users are basically immortal, but most of the main characters in Stormlight are Radiants so it'd take a way some of the tension if they were just completely unkillable.

On the precog angle, Atium does have an flaw in that the atium shadow splits, if the opponent can react to the Atium guided actions fast enough. And Kaladin's combat sense gives him said super reflexes in spades, giving him a pretty solid counter to Atium.

Vin was the kind of super-ninja that comes around once a millennium, maybe Kal could duplicate that feat if he was fighting the Seer long enough to get a read on their reactions and had an understanding of Allomancy enough to tell that it was possible but I think the fight would be settled long before then.

Even if he could temporarily beat the Atium it's still a matter of his skill vs. the Mistborns, that's not a way for him to win, just a way to maybe even the odds for a second so it's not guaranteed that he will fail. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Voidus

[Shardbearer]

I think that Shardplate and Shardblades have enough Investiture to interfere with Atium. If that's true, the Mistborn would lose their biggest advantage over the Windrunner.

[Voidus]

I think that Shardplate and Shardblades have enough Investiture to interfere with Atium. If that's true, the Mistborn would lose their biggest advantage over the Windrunner.

I'm not sure that Investiture would prevent Atium much, it can see people fine, despite bloods ability to block iron and steel, I think it's just a unique effect of Aluminium.

But even if it does, if you can see the person you can tell what they're doing, maybe if they threw their blade it would help I guess but then you'd need to take the fight to range which is much more of a Mistborn's specialty than it is a Windrunner's.

And this isn't even getting into what would happen if they Duralumin-burned their Atium.

[thegatorgirl00]

I'd imagine that where they fought would have a large impact on the winner. Any world where the use of metal was common, the Mistborn would win. A world where metal wasn't common, the Windrunner would win.

Now I'm imagining Kaladin and Vin fighting in Newcago and Vin winning almost immediately.

[Yata]

Now I'm imagining Kaladin and Vin fighting in Newcago and Vin winning almost immediately.

I don't think that Newcago change a lot. It's all a single block of Steel and outside of manovrability Vin can't use anything like bullet.

 

[natc]

Well, Kelsier is living proof that the "center of mass only" thing is actually a little bogus, though Vin probably doesn't have that ability yet.

[Rockbud]

It seems most people think the contest would be close, but a Mistborn represents a full array of preservation granted powers, where as a radiant as we know them have two powers, assumed a combination of honor and cultivation.

I'd suggest that a more parallel match up would be a KR with a twinborn (think of all the fun combinations you could discuss!) Or in fact, a full metal born vs a full surgebinder!

[natc]

But the topic is Surgebinding vs Allomancy.

Using twinborn would be cheating.

[Yata]

Probably we had to wait until a true Radiant Knight shows us what is true capable.

 

And about the "unlimited fuel" this condition, is unfair. A mistborn burn-rate go up as his Allomanic Strenght. A Radiant Knight instead became more efficent in the use of the Stormlight through his Oaths-progression.

Probably a complete KR may do much more that we saw doing to Kal with an moderate amount of Stormlight.

[skaa]

If the battle occurs outside of Roshar and Scadrial (meaning there's no local source of god metals, Mist, and Stormlight) then Lift with at least four Honorblades (Nale's, Ash's, Kalak's, and Ishar's) and with sufficient training and lots of calories should be a good match even for a Mistborn of Vin's skill-level and who has vials of all sixteen regular metals. This is assuming neither of them will use Hemalurgy and that Wyndle will cooperate fully.

[Voidus]

It seems most people think the contest would be close, but a Mistborn represents a full array of preservation granted powers, where as a radiant as we know them have two powers, assumed a combination of honor and cultivation.

I'd suggest that a more parallel match up would be a KR with a twinborn (think of all the fun combinations you could discuss!) Or in fact, a full metal born vs a full surgebinder!

I don't see a full Metalborn losing to anyone, you could combine pretty much every other power in the cosmere and I still don't think that would do it.

TLR only died because he was basically already 1000 years overdue for death. (And because Vin is a prophesied savior with the help of a Shard)

[Yata]

I don't see a full Metalborn losing to anyone, you could combine pretty much every other power in the cosmere and I still don't think that would do it.

TLR only died because he was basically already 1000 years overdue for death. (And because Vin is a prophesied savior with the help of a Shard)

The other magic System have often more raw power. Probably the Allomancy reach them only with Durallumin. But the Durallumin is quite dangerous because you must stop burning many metal when you use it. And that time may change a fight

[Voidus]

The other magic System have often more raw power. Probably the Allomancy reach them only with Durallumin. But the Durallumin is quite dangerous because you must stop burning many metal when you use it. And that time may change a fight

Pewter seems pretty equivalent with most other physical-attribute enhancing abilities, the only exception being healing but then when you do  use allomantic power for healing (Through compounding) it seems to be faster and more efficient than pretty much any other method of healing in the cosmere. Maybe Dhakor have better durability but that's about it. And other than that I can't think of any comparisons to make.

So yeah, you don't need Duralumin to match other magic systems, duralumin is a nice ace in the hole though, allowing you to completely change a fight and hardly dangerous to use (Particularly against non-allomancers who neither understand your abilities nor can tell when you're using Duralumin) Since you're only burning it for a second it barely provides an opening at all and that 'opening' is when you're using your abilities to your strongest, you may have to stop steelpushing to take advantage of duralumin fueled pewter but that's not much of an opening since while you're doing so you're a few dozen times stronger and tougher than normal.

And I don't even want to venture a guess as to what you could achieve by using Duralumin on feruchemical stores if you're a full metalborn.

[Charononus]

If both opponents had knowledge of the others powers,  I'd bet on a surgebinder but not on a windrunner.  A lightweaver making illusions of atium shadows is the only real way to win.

[Voidus]

If both opponents had knowledge of the others powers,  I'd bet on a surgebinder but not on a windrunner.  A lightweaver making illusions of atium shadows is the only real way to win.

Either of the orders with Soulcasting could probably do it, it's essentially an instant-kill (Though we have no way of knowing how it would interact with someone like a Mistborn/whether copper could block it) but yeah I'd bank on a Lightweaver being able to win.

[Yata]

Either of the orders with Soulcasting could probably do it, it's essentially an instant-kill (Though we have no way of knowing how it would interact with someone like a Mistborn/whether copper could block it) but yeah I'd bank on a Lightweaver being able to win.

I don't think that copper would help but I don't think either that an Allomancer may be easy Soulcasted. A mistborn would be more hard. But just to the Investiture's Interference.

You had to use tons of Stormlight to do something like that.

[Voidus]

I don't think that copper would help but I don't think either that an Allomancer may be easy Soulcasted. A mistborn would be more hard. But just to the Investiture's Interference.

You had to use tons of Stormlight to do something like that.

It provides help from other forms of cognitive manipulation (Though we're not entirely sure how Soulcasting works on living beings, Jasnah seemed pretty sure it would work but could a strong-willed person resist it?)

But just generally Soulcasting is a good weapon against Mistborn, Soulcast any metal in the area into stone or something to deprive them of weapons and if necessary just Soulcast the air around them into fire since they don't have much in the way of defense against that kind of an attack.

[Yata]

It provides help from other forms of cognitive manipulation (Though we're not entirely sure how Soulcasting works on living beings, Jasnah seemed pretty sure it would work but could a strong-willed person resist it?)

But just generally Soulcasting is a good weapon against Mistborn, Soulcast any metal in the area into stone or something to deprive them of weapons and if necessary just Soulcast the air around them into fire since they don't have much in the way of defense against that kind of an attack.

I tought you talk about soulcast the Mistborn, sorry my bad.

Anyway I thought that the Surge may be used to do some bad trick to a Mistborn.

Gravitation: the Reverse lashing may compromise a lot a guy who is used to beonly Metal anchored. May put confusion to the anchor of the mistborn (gather together coin or little metal object) and of course deflect a bit any "bullet".

Lightwaves: A really pain in the chull, an Atium shadow may be hidden or falsificate by the illusions.

Soulcasting: Unless you may do it at distance is quite useless. If you may touch the mistborn you have better to Stab with a Shardblade.

Adesion: nice options if you may trick the Mistborn and block him. With the right knowledge about Steelpush and Ironpull is quite usefull.

Progression: No use at all to me.

Friction: If you may use it to reduce the incoming damage is quite usefull.

Elsecalling: Is too unprecise to be usefull in a combat (unless you want to leave the battle).

 

About the other surge, we don't know enough.

[Voidus]

I tought you talk about soulcast the Mistborn, sorry my bad.

Anyway I thought that the Surge may be used to do some bad trick to a Mistborn.

Gravitation: the Reverse lashing may compromise a lot a guy who is used to beonly Metal anchored. May put confusion to the anchor of the mistborn (gather together coin or little metal object) and of course deflect a bit any "bullet".

Lightwaves: A really pain in the chull, an Atium shadow may be hidden or falsificate by the illusions.

Soulcasting: Unless you may do it at distance is quite useless. If you may touch the mistborn you have better to Stab with a Shardblade.

Adesion: nice options if you may trick the Mistborn and block him. With the right knowledge about Steelpush and Ironpull is quite usefull.

Progression: No use at all to me.

Friction: If you may use it to reduce the incoming damage is quite usefull.

Elsecalling: Is too unprecise to be usefull in a combat (unless you want to leave the battle).

 

About the other surge, we don't know enough.

The problem with using the reverse lashing is that you have to be touching whatever you're using it on, so you're going to be pulling a bunch of metal right towards you, which is not a great idea against a Mistborn since they could then just pull it right through you.

[Yata]

The problem with using the reverse lashing is that you have to be touching whatever you're using it on, so you're going to be pulling a bunch of metal right towards you, which is not a great idea against a Mistborn since they could then just pull it right through you.

Sure but what I want to propose was another tatcic.

A Windrunner or a Skybreaker may touch some big object and Infused with a lot of Reverse Lash. From that moment the object had a Great gravitational pull that may bend the object shoot to the RK and create confusion to the Mistborn's Anchors. In all this chaos the RK may use Gravitational Surge to be unaffected by the Reverse Lash.

With this strategy the RK may be safe for any long range attack of the Mistborn (if he is smart enough to not stay near the "mini-Black Hole").

 

I am sorry to explain myself bad. 

[thegatorgirl00]

I tought you talk about soulcast the Mistborn, sorry my bad.

Anyway I thought that the Surge may be used to do some bad trick to a Mistborn.

Gravitation: the Reverse lashing may compromise a lot a guy who is used to beonly Metal anchored. May put confusion to the anchor of the mistborn (gather together coin or little metal object) and of course deflect a bit any "bullet".

Lightwaves: A really pain in the chull, an Atium shadow may be hidden or falsificate by the illusions.

Soulcasting: Unless you may do it at distance is quite useless. If you may touch the mistborn you have better to Stab with a Shardblade.

Adesion: nice options if you may trick the Mistborn and block him. With the right knowledge about Steelpush and Ironpull is quite usefull.

Progression: No use at all to me.

Friction: If you may use it to reduce the incoming damage is quite usefull.

Elsecalling: Is too unprecise to be usefull in a combat (unless you want to leave the battle).

 

About the other surge, we don't know enough.

I'm not sure how helpful Lightweaving would be. The Mistborn can just burn bronze to find the Lightweaver, making a disguise useless.

[Zathoth]

Two things:

1. For the lightweaving atium shadows thing to work the lightweaver needs to know why the mistborn is dodging everything. Of course they could just create false clones anyway, which is very useful.

2. Progression is very useful, maybe not the healing part, but the part that lets you make stuff grow. *Plant tree seed* *Progression* *Tree uppercut*

3. (Yes I know I said two, I lied) If Truthwatchers can see the future they may be able to counter atium, at least a little.

4. Reverse lashings can be useful, if you dont pull the coins directly to yourself.

[Yata]

I'm not sure how helpful Lightweaving would be. The Mistborn can just burn bronze to find the Lightweaver, making a disguise useless.

If Bronze find all Kinetic Investiture a Skilled Seeker may use it to find a Surgebinder. But also the Illusion are made of Stormlight and Therefore the Mistborn can't simply tell what is the RK and what is the Illusion without Interact with them.

[Charononus]

Either of the orders with Soulcasting could probably do it, it's essentially an instant-kill (Though we have no way of knowing how it would interact with someone like a Mistborn/whether copper could block it) but yeah I'd bank on a Lightweaver being able to win.

Between soulcasting at a distance (possibly) and illusions,  a Lightweaver that specialized in combat would be an absolute nightmare.

[Yata]

Between soulcasting at a distance (possibly) and illusions,  a Lightweaver that specialized in combat would be an absolute nightmare.

We are not sure that Distance-Soulcasting is a common trat of the Trasformation Surge. It can be the effect of the Trasformation Surge using the Trasportation Surge to get the target without touch it.