pharaoh9000 Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 First: He could have guessed that if he told Szeth there and then he was cooperating with Taravangian, Szeth would run away or try to fight him. Second: no, everything Nalan did was to stop a Desolation. He does not serve justice or law, he just makes sure he does not go against it either. Plus, if what Szeth did was acceptable to him, it is pissible he is OK with what the Diagram forced Vargo to do, and both share the goal of fighting the desolations without care for how many they kill on the way. EDIT: Not thatI think it was Nalan. Graves seems more likely to me, I just think the Skybreakers and Diagram do not oppose one another and may have a frail alliance. Yes. I can more readily accept that it might have been Graves. It's time to pick up WoR again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 What if it's Nalan? We know he has a ton of fabrials with him. [...] Also, Nalan has a lightweaving fabrial on him, so altering his appearance and accent for short stretches is probably trivial for him. Where does this come from? To my knowledge the only fabrial we know for sure is in his possession is Regrowth. I can see why you might speculate that he has collected an ancient fabrial reproducing each of the surges, but that is by no means something we know. Have I missed something? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 If it was Nalan, could he have obfuscated his identity somehow? I suppose, but we never ever see him do that in any other context. It really doesn't seem like his style to act as anyone's messenger or to cover up in any way. And, so far as I know, he has no way of seeing the future to know that he would need to disguise himself in this interaction so as not ruin his opportunity to recruit Szeth later. More to the point though, why would he even act in this capacity on behalf of the Diagram or Mr. T? He seems much more above that. Plus the Diagram's agenda isn't stopping or preventing a desolation, it's only goal is the survival of humanity past the coming desolation. And like every good genius dictator, only the Diagram "knows best how to do that" *wink wink*. Nalan's goal is prevent the desolation from happening in the first place by killing, so far as we've seen, only people who have access to regrowth surge. I'd much prefer if it were someone else, who we either haven't seen but is important. Failing that, someone who has more power than we've seen revealed (fabrial) but who we've met before in another context. I do think they are more important than as just a messenger for Mr. T. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperity Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Pretty sure aol is after wok and wor. Yeah, Mistborn Era 2 takes place after SA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 My other doubt about it being Nalan is this: As a herald of the Almighty... specifically The Herald of Justice, are we entirely sure he would be allying/coordinating himself with Taravangian (even temporarily)? Everywhere Nalan has gone and everything that we know of him doing has been to serve justice itself. Are we sure he'd align himself with the types of actions Taravangian has been taking? Nalan has NOT been serving justice. He is bound by the laws of the land, but follows his own agenda, and will gladly exploit loopholes in order to further his own goals. Where does this come from? To my knowledge the only fabrial we know for sure is in his possession is Regrowth. I can see why you might speculate that he has collected an ancient fabrial reproducing each of the surges, but that is by no means something we know. Have I missed something? I don't have my book on me, but I was pretty sure that we saw him using it in Ym's interlude. I may be remembering things incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharaoh9000 Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Nalan has NOT been serving justice. He is bound by the laws of the land, but follows his own agenda, and will gladly exploit loopholes in order to further his own goals. The Herald of Justice does not serve Justice? He exploits loopholes? Right after one of his minions slit Gawx's throat in Lift's interlude, Nalan is quoted as saying “Without the law, there is nothing. You will subject yourself to their rules, and accept the dictates of justice. It is all we have, the only sure thing in this world.” His "own agenda" is Justice itself. He seems to see the Law and Justice as one and the same thing. And by his very nature, he seems to hold these things as absolutes without question. He seems to be focusing his attentions on certain surgebinders (attempting to deny the next Desolation), but still the Law seems to take priority with him. As evidenced by the ending of the Lift interlude when despite his efforts to capture/kill her, the Law granted her pardon and Nalan let her free. This is Justice. Once the law changed and Lift was pardoned, Nalan didn't even care about his previous objectives with the girl. Despite her crimes, despite even her investiture, he left her alone. This is what I mean when I say he serves Justice. When Lift asked him why he hunted her, he responded "In the name of justice." Maybe I missed the times he exploited loopholes to further his own goals. Maybe I missed them, honestly. Another reason I doubt that the masked man is Nalan is because we were constantly reminded of how emotionless Nalan/Darkness was... and the monologuing we see in the scene with the masked man and Szeth doesn't quite match up with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Nalan doesn't serve justice in his current state. He holds himself to the law, but that isn't always the same as true justice. He'll ignore people who've committed major crimes while he'll do extensive research on his targets in hopes that he can uncover some minor crime that he can use against them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharaoh9000 Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Nalan doesn't serve justice in his current state. He holds himself to the law, but that isn't always the same as true justice. He'll ignore people who've committed major crimes while he'll do extensive research on his targets in hopes that he can uncover some minor crime that he can use against them.You're right, in part. Nalan explains that he's doing this because he's specifically chasing people who can invest. Because he feels they will give rise to another Desolation... therefore, in his eyes, they are a priority for this reason and he searches for wrongs they have done so he has excuse enough to get rid of them.Seen from his perspective, how is he not serving justice? Also... after not wearing a mask in any of his scenes, why wear one with Szeth and refer to Taravangian as his master? Edited November 5, 2015 by pharaoh9000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Being a surgebinder isn't a crime, nor is it morally wrong. Hunting surgebinders is not just. You might have an argument for it being morally right to hunt them, if it will prevent a desolation. But not just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharaoh9000 Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Being a surgebinder isn't a crime, nor is it morally wrong. Hunting surgebinders is not just. You might have an argument for it being morally right to hunt them, if it will prevent a desolation. But not just. I'm trying to comment on Nalan's motives and perspective. And I only mention these things because I think they prove he's an unlikely candidate for being the masked man talking to Szeth. I'm not at all saying he's right for what he's doing. Just to be clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 I'm trying to comment on Nalan's motives and perspective. And I only mention these things because I think they prove he's an unlikely candidate for being the masked man talking to Szeth. I'm not at all saying he's right for what he's doing. Just to be clear. I don't think it's likely, either. I was just throwing out the only male character that we know of who we know would have access to a soulcaster. I don't think that there's anyone else that we've seen who would have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharaoh9000 Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 I don't think it's likely, either. I was just throwing out the only male character that we know of who we know would have access to a soulcaster. I don't think that there's anyone else that we've seen who would have one. That is a great point. Man, I love puzzles! I hadn't thought of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharaoh9000 Posted November 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Also, I was just thinking... Aren't the chains, rings, and bracelets holding soulcaster gemstones typically gold? I know the one Shallan/Jasnah held were said to be... Am I wrong in this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypatia Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 A few questions to the messenger: If he was sent from Taravangian, he has to be someone Mr T. trusts. He is at this moment the one holding the Oathstone, the power over Szeth, technically he is the new master and would be able to use Szeth for his own goal. Is there someone whom Taravangian trusts so much? For only being a messenger he knows too much - about Szeth killing Gavilar, about his abilities. How? A messenger wouldn't need such a background, if he was only told to deliver the list. He says in this interlude, he has watched Szeth. Who else confirmes he was watching Szeth since the assassination? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 A few questions to the messenger: If he was sent from Taravangian, he has to be someone Mr T. trusts. He is at this moment the one holding the Oathstone, the power over Szeth, technically he is the new master and would be able to use Szeth for his own goal. Is there someone whom Taravangian trusts so much? For only being a messenger he knows too much - about Szeth killing Gavilar, about his abilities. How? A messenger wouldn't need such a background, if he was only told to deliver the list. He says in this interlude, he has watched Szeth. Who else confirmes he was watching Szeth since the assassination? Nalan? Technically, he couldn't go against Taravangian's orders, plus he has been watching Szeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Going back to the quotes so nicely presented in the OP, the person in question seems completely different from Nalan. Consider the following cut and paste from the OP. This person is concerned with glory, art, godliness, killing because one is skilled. "Are you satisfied with this... are you satisfied with trivial crimes?" "What a waste... You are squandered." "You are a work of art... a god." “But do you not rebel against this frivolous use of your skills? Were you not meant for greatness?” "It's time you stop wasting your talent." Contrast that with Nalan's concerns from the Lift interlude and at the end of WoR. He is driven by duty and adherence to a code. "You follow the laws of your society to perfection. ... I worry that emotion has clouded your ability to discern. Your ability to ... judge." "Unbecoming of one who would study beneath me." "I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled. ... I watched you keep your word with perfection. it is the only genuine beauty in the world. " The man in question and Nalan seem to have very different concerns, but express them so forthrightly that I cannot see them as being the same person. Further, Nalan understands Szeth, where this other person thinks that the things he speaks of would be interesting to Szeth. He clearly does not understand Szeth well, if at all. Now you could argue that Nalan could pretend to be interested in glory, etc., but that does not seem like the Nalan we see. The Nalan we see does not seem interested in making an impression or changing how he presents his ideas to appeal to his listeners. Edited November 7, 2015 by hoser 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharaoh9000 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Going back to the quotes so nicelypresented in the OP, the person in question seems completely different from Nalan. Consider the following cut and paste from the OP. This person is concerned with glory, art, godliness, killing because one is skilled. "Are you satisfied with this... are you satisfied with trivial crimes?" "What a waste... You are squandered." "You are a work of art... a god." “But do you not rebel against this frivolous use of your skills? Were you not meant for greatness?” "It's time you stop wasting your talent." Contrast that with Nalan's concerns from the Lift interlude and at the end of WoR. He is driven by duty and adherence to a code. You follow the laws of your society to perfection. ... I worry that emotion has couded your ability to discern. Your ability to ... judge. Unbecoming of one who would study beneath me. I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled. ... I watched you keep your word with perfection. it is the only genuine beauty in the world. The man in question and Nalan seem to have very different concerns, but express them so forthrightly that I cannot see them as being the same person. Further, Nalan understands Szeth, where this other person thinks that the things he speaks of would be interesting to Szeth. He clearly does not understand Szeth well, if at all. Now you could argue that Nalan could pretend to be interested in glory, etc., but that does not seem like the Nalan we see. The Nalan we see does not seem interested in making an impression or changing how he presents his ideas to appeal to his listeners. Glories within! Thank you for the additional Nalan quotes (may you be showered in upvotes, good citizen)! I couldn't agree more with what you've said. I consider my original theory to be ultra-outrageous, but I feel "Nalan, Herald of Justice" to be even more of a stretch. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Going back to the quotes so nicely presented in the OP, the person in question seems completely different from Nalan. Consider the following cut and paste from the OP. This person is concerned with glory, art, godliness, killing because one is skilled. I was just being cheeky. Not serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) I was just being cheeky. Not serious. Re "being cheeky. Not serious": "You are a work of art... a god." Edited November 7, 2015 by hoser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARARITA Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 I'm at work and unable to reference my book or check where I want to ..but I was thinking maybe one of T's people Mrall is one of those people - couldn't find anything on voice (yet) however - Shallan couldn't place Mraize's accent and checking what I can for those references I noticed something Mraize and Mrall both start with Mr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Mrall is one of those people - couldn't find anything on voice (yet) [...] I noticed something-- Mraize and Mrall both start with Mr By finding something on voice, do you mean comparing narrator interpretations of characters in the audiobook? Because that is a good idea that hadn't occurred to me until now. Regarding the names, the similarity comes from (and points to) the fact that both Mrall and Mraize are native Thaylens. Mrall's ethnicity is stated in the books. Mraize's is only hinted, but Peter has confirmed it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharaoh9000 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 By finding something on voice, do you mean comparing narrator interpretations of characters in the audiobook? Because that is a good idea that hadn't occurred to me until now. the voice comparison is somewhat helpful, somewhat not... like guessing at which character Hoid is before the book actually names him. But also not helpful, because in the real world these narrators have only so many different voices, dialects, and accents that they can mix and mash around into different characters... and sometimes they repeat. Take Michael Kramer for example: -His Lopen (WoK/WoR) is the same as his Wayne (AoL) -His Sigzil (WoR) is the same as his Sazed (MB) Now I'll be the first to admit how cool it would be if this meant Lopen/Wayne were the same worldhopping person or maybe Harmony himself was talking to Kaladin in the depths of the chasms, I'd try not to think of the voices for their canonical significance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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