Unknown Surge Theory

[Aether he/him]

It should also be noted  that Elokhar apparently sees Cryptics, which would place him in the same Order as Shallan, with a female Herald at its head. With the female Stoneward, the male whatever-the-hech-Ym-is I think we can safely assume that the Orders aren't gender limited, and likely not even predominately filled by either sex.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

It should also be noted  that Elokhar apparently sees Cryptics, which would place him in the same Order as Shallan, with a female Herald at its head. With the female Stoneward, the male whatever-the-hech-Ym-is I think we can safely assume that the Orders aren't gender limited, and likely not even predominately filled by either sex.

? Cryptics are confirmed Lightweaver specific?

[Aether he/him]

In the same way that Honourspren are Windrunner specific. The definitions of both of these terms are fluent, but from what I understand, there are specific types of Spren that would be classified as archetypical Honourspren/Cryptics. These would be specific to their respective Orders, I believe.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

In the same way that Honourspren are Windrunner specific. The definitions of both of these terms are fluent, but from what I understand, there are specific types of Spren that would be classified as archetypical Honourspren/Cryptics. These would be specific to their respective Orders, I believe.

But that is just a feeling. We have mention from Wyndle that Honorspren and Cryptics exist and that Honorspren are picky, but I don't recall a definitive remark on them being specific to Order. Several site members have suggested that those are broader categories for some spren that might look different or act different or whatever, but still be drawn to honorable deeds. 

[Aether he/him]

But that is just a feeling. We have mention from Wyndle that Honorspren and Cryptics exist and that Honorspren are picky, but I don't recall a definitive remark on them being specific to Order. Several site members have suggested that those are broader categories for some spren that might look different or act different or whatever, but still be drawn to honorable deeds. 

I get that, and I'm somewhat behind the ones suggesting that all of the Nahel Spren are Splinters of both Honour and Cultivation, but of different amounts. Honourspren à la Syl would probably be close to 100% Honour, and perhaps "Wyndlespren" 100% Cultivation, but another one could be for example 15% Honour and 85% Cultivation.

.

As of now, we have information that there are at least four different kinds of Spren that bonds with people displaying four different Radiant power-sets. These are Kaladin's Honourspren, Shallan's and quite possibly Elokhar's "Cryptics", Lift's "Wyndlespren" and Ym's "whatever-spren". Also, given

the strange shadow-reversal Jasnah displays in the prologue of WoR - which we haven't seen for any of the other Radiants-in-training - I'd say it is safe to assume that she is at that time in the process of bonding a fifth distinct type of Spren.

.

I personally believe that whatever the case is, there are specific types of bonding-Spren for each Order, with what I see define as "Cryptics" and "Honourspren" being the particular Spren for the Lightweavers and Windrunners respectively.

.

EDIT: Accidentally used the "quote" function instead of spoiler-tags.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I get that, and I'm somewhat behind the ones suggesting that all of the Nahel Spren are Splinters of both Honour and Cultivation, but of different amounts. Honourspren à la Syl would probably be close to 100% Honour, and perhaps "Wyndlespren" 100% Cultivation, but another one could be for example 15% Honour and 85% Cultivation.

.

As of now, we have information that there are at least four different kinds of Spren that bonds with people displaying four different Radiant power-sets. These are Kaladin's Honourspren, Shallan's and quite possibly Elokhar's "Cryptics", Lift's "Wyndlespren" and Ym's "whatever-spren". Also, given

the strange shadow-reversal Jasnah displays in the prologue of WoR - which we haven't seen for any of the other Radiants-in-training - I'd say it is safe to assume that she is at that time in the process of bonding a fifth distinct type of Spren.

.

I personally believe that whatever the case is, there are specific types of bonding-Spren for each Order, with what I see define as "Cryptics" and "Honourspren" being the particular Spren for the Lightweavers and Windrunners respectively.

.

EDIT: Accidentally used the "quote" function instead of spoiler-tags.

We also have evidence of a Wind spren appearance on an Honorspren. For all we know, Ym's spren is also an Honorspren. Wyndle himself could be an honorspren. It would actually make sense if he was mentioning honorspren being more selective in a manner that was near bragging. All cryptics might fit the Cultivation side and Honorspren might fit the Honor side. There haven't been many comments that lay that out yet. 

[Aether he/him]

We also have evidence of a Wind spren appearance on an Honorspren. For all we know, Ym's spren is also an Honorspren. Wyndle himself could be an honorspren. It would actually make sense if he was mentioning honorspren being more selective in a manner that was near bragging. All cryptics might fit the Cultivation side and Honorspren might fit the Honor side. There haven't been many comments that lay that out yet. 

Wyndle and Shallan's Cryptics most definitely do not display the same characteristics as Sylphrena. That isn't to say that they aren't all "of the Honour Shard" or something, but that they are quite clearly different types of Spren. They might all be honourspren, but when I'm referring to "Honourspren", with a capital "H", I'm referring to a Sylphrena-type Spren in particular. And those distinctly different types of Spren are specific to separate each Order. At least that is what the evidence suggests.

 

EDIT: I am not sure if you were arguing with me or not, but you seemed to reject my hypothesis without actually having understood what I meant, so I've tried to clear it up a bit in this post.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Wyndle and Shallan's Cryptics most definitely do not display the same characteristics as Sylphrena. That isn't to say that they aren't all "of the Honour Shard" or something, but that they are quite clearly different types of Spren. They might all be honourspren, but when I'm referring to "Honourspren", with a capital "H", I'm referring to a Sylphrena-type Spren in particular. And those distinctly different types of Spren are specific to separate each Order. At least that is what the evidence suggests.

I think the evidence suggests that either result is possible. Syl appears to be an anomaly while Wyndle's path was very clearly designed by a source that he cites. We have no clue what caused Syl's memory loss and to what degree that plays a role in her methods here. She may be running off of a very basic, instinctual system for promoting the bond, while Wyndle seems to have his methods down to a science. There is no evidence suggesting that two Honorspren of different "types" could not be dished out between two different Orders because Syl's form is conducive to Windrunner abilities and Wyndle's is to Edgedancers. Their characterstics fit the bill in a more "physical" sense which is what distinguishes the Order. Not necessarily Honor or Cultivation. Also, there are several different Cryptics that Shallan can see, all with different symbols. These could all be Cryptics (and I think that they are), and each of them could correspond to a different Order depending on what symbol hovers above their heads. We already have a good idea that symbols play a role in what Order you are........

Point being, whether or not that is true, I think the evidence allows for each scenario pretty equally. So we are not sure that Ym is an exception. Or that the female KR is an exception. Both statements rely on quite a bit of reaching. 

[Aether he/him]

 

Specks of light like those from a piece of crystal suspended in the sunlight. He did not know this type of spren and he had never seen one like it before.

- From Ym's Interlude

I think it is quite clear that the Spren in question is not of Syl's type. He would certainly have recognized anything resembling a Windspren. Neither does his description match "Wyndlespren" nor Cryptics. Probably not "Jasnahspren" either, but we can't know that for sure yet.

.

We cannot be 100% that Ym wouldn't be an Edgedancer, as we only see him use the Growth surge, but it seems likely that he would be the of other Order with access to the Growth surge, as it seems like he can use it fairly easily, while Lift had to reach "the next level" before she could use it to heal. No we are likely dealing with the Fifth Order here.

.

.

Cryptics are an oddity, given that they seem to come in groups, but ignoring Elokhar (as we don't know what surges he can access), we have five different Spren for five different Orders. While your hypothesis might still prove to be correct, I fail to see the evidence for it, other than of the "we've never seen a blue Swan, but that doesn't mean there are none" inclination.

 

EDIT: Fixed spoiler-tags

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

[spolier]

I think it is quite clear that the Spren in question is not of Syl's type. He would certainly have recognized anything resembling a Windspren. Neither does his description match "Wyndlespren" nor Cryptics. Probably not "Jasnahspren" either, but we can't know that for sure yet.

.

We cannot be 100% that Ym wouldn't be an Edgedancer, as we only see him use the Growth surge, but it seems likely that he would be the of other Order with access to the Growth surge, as it seems like he can use it fairly easily, while Lift had to reach "the next level" before she could use it to heal. No we are likely dealing with the Fifth Order here.

.

.

Cryptics are an oddity, given that they seem to come in groups, but ignoring Elokhar (as we don't know what surges he can access), we have five different Spren for five different Orders. While your hypothesis might still prove to be correct, I fail to see the evidence for it, other than of the "we've never seen a blue Swan, but that doesn't mean there are none" inclination.

I think you are misunderstanding me, maybe due to hasty explanation. 

It could be like this:

Honorspren:

                  -Wind Type (Order 1)

                  - Vine Type (Order 4)

                 - Light Type (Order ?)

Cryptics:

                - Truth Type (Order 6)

                - Fear Type (Elokhar's Order) (lol)

                - Snooty Type (Jasnah's)

There are subdivisions of spren which have qualities that match specific orders but are underneath the umbrella category of either Honorspren or Cryptics. Honor might be more physical spren where Cryptics are more Cognitive (hence they cannot be seen by most (where windspren types are seen by all though not always at the same time)). There are plenty of ways to categorize them that make sense but don't have an edge over other categorizations. There are also plenty of types of spren that haven't been seen before by certain people. Heck, deathspren are considered a myth by some. So that claim really holds no weight. Nobody thinks that Ym is an Edgedancer, I was saying they could fall under the same category but be different types. It's all possible, so while I believe Ym is Order 5, there is really no saying whether or not that indicates what classification of spren he would have OR whether he is an exception to some rule. It sounds to me like you are suggesting that if Jasnah, Elhokar, and others are seeing Cryptics, that means they are Lightweavers.

 

[Aether he/him]

There are subdivisions of spren which have qualities that match specific orders but are underneath the umbrella category of either Honorspren or Cryptics.

We are in agreement then. I thought you were saying that Cryptics of the Lightweaver variant could, for the lack of better evidence, just as well end up also granting Windrunner-type bonds.

.

The only disagreement we have seem to be in the nomenclature. While WoB state that there are different definitions of what it means to be an honourspren, I'm just going to refer to Syl-type Spren as Honourspren (with capital "H") until a better and more specific term is given. As such, Syl and maybe Wyndle could both be honourspren, but only Syl is an Honourspren. Much in the same way that the word "church" might refer to any number of things, but the word "Church" only refers to the governing body of a specific faith.

.

I do, on the other hand, argue that it is too soon to name the "umbrella categories". They might end up being "honourspren" and "cryptic", but until we know for sure, I suggest that it might be more orderly and less confusing to only refer to the distinct types of Nahel Spren, unless specifically discussing the proposed categorisations.

.

EDIT: Up-vote for naming Jasnah's Spren "Snootyspren".

.

EDIT 2: The WoB I was referring to:

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren".

.

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

.

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

<source>

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

We are in agreement then. I thought you were saying that Cryptics of the Lightweaver variant could, for the lack of better evidence, just as well end up also granting Windrunner-type bonds.

.

The only disagreement we have seem to be in the nomenclature. While WoB state that there are different definitions of what it means to be an honourspren, I'm just going to refer to Syl-type Spren as Honourspren (with capital "H") until a better and more specific term is given. As such, Syl and maybe Wyndle could both be honourspren, but only Syl is an Honourspren. Much in the same way that the word "church" might refer to any number of things, but the word "Church" only refers to the governing body of a specific faith.

.

I do, on the other hand, argue that it is too soon to name the "umbrella categories". They might end up being "honourspren" and "cryptic", but until we know for sure, I suggest that it might be more orderly and less confusing to only refer to the distinct types of Nahel Spren, unless specifically discussing the proposed categorisations.

.

EDIT: Up-vote for naming Jasnah's Spren "Snootyspren".

.

EDIT 2: The WoB I was referring to:

 

Thanks for the references. Yeah, I was trying to type that out fast and may have jumped the gun on a few sentences. Wyndle says something about honorspren and cryptics getting together for something, which made me so frustrated because if it was worded about any other way we would know if those were the only groups or just the polar opposite groups/types (funny enough, those two are across from each other entirely).

[Aether he/him]

Thanks for the references. Yeah, I was trying to type that out fast and may have jumped the gun on a few sentences. Wyndle says something about honorspren and cryptics getting together for something, which made me so frustrated because if it was worded about any other way we would know if those were the only groups or just the polar opposite groups/types (funny enough, those two are across from each other entirely).

Yeah, Brandon can be kind of a douche. (EDIT: Woah! 'Twas a joke! I really doubt Brandon worded himself just to spite us in this particular discussion. What is the down-vote for?)

Also, is it just me, or have we just completely hijacked this Thread with a silly confusion over a rather specific part of Spren naming standards? ^^

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Natans he/him]

Yeah, Brandon can be kind of a douche. (EDIT: Woah! 'Twas a joke! I really doubt Brandon worded himself just to spite us in this particular discussion. What is the down-vote for?)

Also, is it just me, or have we just completely hijacked this Thread with a silly confusion over a rather specific part of Spren naming standards? ^^

 

 Problem solved, Easy people There arent need be so harsh  

Edited December 13, 2013 by Natans

[Romek]

I assumed Wyndle was of Cultivation because the way he talks about his mother, while also mentioning that 'He' is gone and that is why he thinks 'She' has given up on humanity.

Whether honorspren are a type of spren or more of a title, maybe different types of spren argue over the title, because it makes them seem closer to their 'Father' or more pure of his intent?

[Natans he/him]

I was thinking Sly is a "Honor spreen"  so Wyndle could be a "Cultivation spren".  He kind fit the profile, which his form and the fact that he "grow" crystals and such =)

 

And if he aren't would you guys think that maybe exist a "cultivation spren" or similar being?

 

Or even better, maybe also exist a "odium spren".

 

There are some emotion sprens. like fear, passion, glory. So hate could be a good theme to a spren.

 

PS: Ops ninjad 

Edited December 13, 2013 by Natans

[Aether he/him]

 Problem solved, Easy people There arent need be so harsh  

Why, thank you, Natans=)

 

I assumed Wyndle was of Cultivation because the way he talks about his mother, while also mentioning that 'He' is gone and that is why he thinks 'She' has given up on humanity.

You're probably right. I can't really speak for Bloodfalcon, but I assume Wyndle got thrown in with the honourspren just to fill the categories in order to illustrate his point. I think it more likely to put Wyndle in the cryptics category by his nomenclature.

 

Whether honorspren are a type of spren or more of a title, maybe different types of spren argue over the title, because it makes them seem closer to their 'Father' or more pure of his intent?

That might be part of it, but I think it might mainly have to do with their mixture of the two Shards being more of Honour than Cultivation - assuming that they are divided into such categories in the first place.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

You're probably right. I can't really speak for Bloodfalcon, but I assume Wyndle got thrown in with the honourspren just to fill the categories in order to illustrate his point. I think it more likely to put Wyndle in the cryptics category by his nomenclature.

 

 

And if he aren't would you guys think that maybe exist a "cultivation spren" or similar being?

Mine is not a popular opinion, but I think that all spren are of Cultivation. I think that Honorspren is of the same nature as truthspren. The Nahel bond would be a combinination of Honor and Cultivation to create/control surgebinding. Again, not popular, but yeah, I think there will be lots of types but all under Cultivation.

[treblkickd he/him]

Mine is not a popular opinion, but I think that all spren are of Cultivation. I think that Honorspren is of the same nature as truthspren. The Nahel bond would be a combinination of Honor and Cultivation to create/control surgebinding. Again, not popular, but yeah, I think there will be lots of types but all under Cultivation.

 

The word of Brandon quote about spren being of Honor and Cultivation seems pretty straightforward. There are a couple words annoyingly missing from the transcription, but context pretty strongly implies that something like "entirely" is what belongs in place of the first "(something)".

 

 

quoted from Aether's post on the previous page:

 

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren".

.

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

.

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

 

source

 

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

The word of Brandon quote about spren being of Honor and Cultivation seems pretty straightforward. There are a couple words annoyingly missing from the transcription, but context pretty strongly implies that something like "entirely" is what belongs in place of the first "(something)".

 

 

quoted from Aether's post on the previous page:

 

 

I suppose what I mean is that..... it is hard to put into words. It feels to me like the union of Honor and Cultivations magic is what the spren are, but the different aspects of them will be part of Honor or part of Cultivation. I think that my wording for things and perspective of this stuff are confusing. It got Aether and I confused before, too. 

I think of it more like Cultivation and Honor each put in ingredients, and the process that is Cultivation's involves spren, and the process that would be Honor's involves more surgey stuff. The result is Surgebinding via Nahel bond, with some resulting spren being balanced more toward one than the other. Sorry if that is really confusing again. 

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bloodfalcon

[treblkickd he/him]

I suppose what I mean is that..... it is hard to put into words. It feels to me like the union of Honor and Cultivations magic is what the spren are, but the different aspects of them will be part of Honor or part of Cultivation. I think that my wording for things and perspective of this stuff are confusing. It got Aether and I confused before, too. 

I think of it more like Cultivation and Honor each put in ingredients, and the process that is Cultivation's involves spren, and the process that would be Honor's involves more surgey stuff. The result is Surgebinding via Nahel bond, with some resulting spren being balanced more toward one than the other. Sorry if that is really confusing again. 

 

Ah, ok, I think I follow you here. That said, the Brandon quote talks about it being possible (even easy?) to tell which spren are more of Honor vs more of Cultivation. Taking the fact that some spren are primarily Honor or Cultivation, your interpretation seems to imply that some spren (the Honor-y ones) would make surgebinders that are better or more powerful (or something along those lines). That's not a crazy idea, but it also does not strike me as having any particular evidence to support it.

[hoser he/him]

I suppose what I mean is that..... it is hard to put into words. It feels to me like the union of Honor and Cultivations magic is what the spren are, but the different aspects of them will be part of Honor or part of Cultivation. [deleted]

I think of it more like Cultivation and Honor each put in ingredients, and the process that is Cultivation's involves spren, and the process that would be Honor's involves more surgey stuff. The result is Surgebinding via Nahel bond, with some resulting spren being balanced more toward one than the other. Sorry if that is really confusing again. 

One factor to consider is that there are spren that are splinter of Adonalsium.  The implication that I derive is that spren are a Roshar thing and predate both H+C.  This leaves it as difficult for me to believe that spren are a particularly Cultivation thing.  I can see the surgebinding system as an H+C system, where both H and C have spren that favor them.  This works with the Brandon quote above, where I find your theory hard to reconcile with the above quote. 

The power-up oaths seem like an exclusively Honor thing, and I expect that an exclusively Cultivation system will have evolution and genetics. 

 

From Shardlet's transcription of the Seattle signing:

 

Wetlander: So is that like the mists and the Well?  Are they…

 

A: They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness.  But, the Seons are self-aware.  So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there.  Those were already splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own.  So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense?  You have seen other splinters.

[Blindillusions he/him]

Might not be the place to ask this, but how are the Orders numbered on the chart?

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Might not be the place to ask this, but how are the Orders numbered on the chart?

 

The orders are numbered clockwise, starting with the Windrunners in the upper-right (the blue Jeseh glyph).  Then down and to the right is the grey-ish Skybreakers, below them is the red Dusbringers.  And so on and so forth.  Essentially they are numbered according to the list in the Ars Arcanum.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

One factor to consider is that there are spren that are splinter of Adonalsium.  The implication that I derive is that spren are a Roshar thing and predate both H+C.  This leaves it as difficult for me to believe that spren are a particularly Cultivation thing.  I can see the surgebinding system as an H+C system, where both H and C have spren that favor them.  This works with the Brandon quote above, where I find your theory hard to reconcile with the above quote. 

The power-up oaths seem like an exclusively Honor thing, and I expect that an exclusively Cultivation system will have evolution and genetics. 

 

From Shardlet's transcription of the Seattle signing:

 

Aren't Honor and Cultivation themselves pieces of Adonalsium? I don't find it surprising that when the whole is in tact it produces spren, and an individual piece produces spren too. Again, not a popular theory, but I support only because it is what seems the most fun to me (in the ways that it fits for other theories) and I can't find anything to fully disprove it other than a lot of "not likely's".