TLR and Twinborn- compounding questions

[CDHarch]

This is the second Brandon Sanderon series I've been through (all 3 Mistborn series and the Alloy of Law). I really appreciate the level of detail that Sanderson puts into the rules and framework for the systems within each part of his Cosmere. However, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the rules for the compounding, which seem to be pretty important since it results in some of the more spectacular powers in this series.

 

So, the 1st real person we see using compounding is obviously TLR, but there are some aspects of this that are odd to me. I've only done a relatively small amount of research, I figure the die-hard fans probably can help me out and make sure I've got it straight.

 

So, one 1st stores an attribute in a specific metal as a Feruchemist. This involves balance- a person must store an equal amount to what is later used, but he can compress that storage (unlike Allomancy) for a greatly increased burst several times the original attribute, for a much shorter time. To "compound" that attribute allomantically, he then has to swallow the metal. In effect, this creates a "new allomantic metal" for them to burn with the stored attribute WITHIN the metal (not the allomantic attributes of the metal itself) being the effect of that burning process.

 

So, for TLR, he stored age, then burned it.... did he then store the burning of that "age" metal back into his bracers? Otherwise, why would removing the bracers have restored his "normal" age, unless he was in fact drawing compounded "age" from the bracers? If the effects of an attribute can only come from the burning of a stored metal, then the bracers would have been irrelevant. Also, shouldn't he have had some of the allomantic "age" metal in his system regardless, which would have allowed him to continue to stay young even without the bracers? Or am I missing an aspect of this?

 

If the above process is correct and you can store, burn and re-store the compounded attribute (which is several times the strength of the original stored attribute, correct?), then I suppose one could continue to store and burn over and over exponentially increasing the reserves of an attribute within a metalmind. By this I mean you store the attribute, burn the metal directly into a new metalmind, and then burn that (lather, rinse, repeat....)

 

This leads me to the second question which I think I've already answered. In The Alloy of Law, we see Miles, a gold twinborn. Miles stores health in his metalminds, then burns the gold. I guess where I was getting confused is when he burns the stored gold, he not actually burring the "gold" itself (which has nothing to do with healing), but he is burning the stored reserves inside the gold, as if (as with TLR) it was a completely new allomantic metal. So the most powerful twinborns are the ones that have the same metal for feruchemical storage AND allomantic burning, as it allows for the compounding to take place. When compounding, they aren't burning the allomatic attribute of the metal, but the stored feruchemical ability instead (provided there was some stored in the metal by the person in the 1st place). 

 

I think I've said the same thing over several times, but again, I'm trying to get my head around it.

 

One last question. I read in one of the forums that TLR's bracers could have acted as a Hemolergical spike. But in order for this to have any effect, they would 1st have to be used to kill a misting/ mistborn to steal an attribute from them, yes? I don't think this really figures into anything if I've got the compounding rules right- it seems unnecessary in explaining TLR's powers. Plus, I don't think he would have wanted that limitation himself.

 

Anyway, if someone can point me to a previous discussion or confirm (or correct) my line of thinking above, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

 

Oh, sorry, one last question. In the Mistborn trilogy, we only see "Full" feruchemists, much the same way a Mistborn is different from a misting in that they can store and use all attributes of all the metals. This changes, obviously, in the Alloy of Law, where there are no "full" feruchemists, but only feruchemists with a single attribute ability. Was this a result of breeding, or do you believe that Sazed as "Harmony" changed the rules of feruchemy to prevent another TLR situation? I can't recall it saying one way or another anywhere, but maybe Sanderson answered the question directly. More speculation on my part.

 

Thanks!

Edited November 19, 2013 by CDHarch

[bartbug he/him]

Umm, I believe that there are still full Feruchemists. It's just that they are a). much more rare to do genetic dilution with breeding with other races, . they tend to keep to them selves. I just remember there being a full Feruchemist in one of the broadsheet pages.

[name_here]

It appears that generally they burn the storage and feed it into another metalmind, since Compounding releases so much of the attribute and they don't need anywhere near that much at a time. And yes, this could theoretically be repeated infinitely. As for why he didn't have any stored age metal ready to burn, that's because storing age uses Atium. Not really practical to do that with.

 

I'm pretty sure that most Feruchemists are Ferrings now because the Keepers got exterminated by Ruin.

[18th Shard he/him]

I had some ideas about the different kinds of Compounding in http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4633-compounding-mechanics/.

[king of nowhere]

 

So, for TLR, he stored age, then burned it.... did he then store the burning of that "age" metal back into his bracers?

Yes. burning the age-infused atium re4leased lots of age, more then TLR would need, so he just stored some age into a bit ot atium, swallowed it, burned it, and used the age he got from burning to fill his atium metalminds. those metalminds would then keep him going all the time, with a slow tap. every once in a while he had to repeat the process to recharge the metalminds. he didn't need to become older for that, he just needed to tap his metaminds for more age and fill the bit of atium for an equal amount.

that's why he died when he lost his bracers. he didn't have any atium in his stomach to burn for youth.

that should also answer your further questions.

 

about the lack of mistborn and full feruchemists, I also assumed that harmony had tampered with powers to avoid a new lor ruler. but brandon said that it was just genetics. Also, if harmony did it, it would then be impossible to breed a mistborn. since4 a mistborn will be bred for the second trilogy, it means that harmony did not tamper with genes. or if he did, he preferred to use a way that wasn't foolproof

[Kurkistan he/him]

Also, his bracers were spikes, they just likely provided a secondary effect unrelated to his youth: you can still store Feruchemical attributes in metals that also happen to be Hemalurgic spikes, after all.

[11thorderknight]

OP - everything you said was correct. To recap: a Compounder is someone who has access to both allomantic and feruchemical properties of the same metal. This allows them to store a feruchemical charge in a small bit of the metal, then swallow it and burn it, because of their allomancy. The feruchemical charge changes the "identity" of the metal so that, when the burning process occurs, it grants the feruchemical power associated with it instead of the allomantic power. The amount of power derived this way is enormous, far in excess of what's required to create the charged metal. In order to save that power, most Compounders take that huge burst and store it in a regular metalmind. So, basically, a little bit of compounding here and there allows a compounder to walk around with perpetually filled metalminds.

 

I hadn't heard the fact that TLR's atium bracers were hemalurgic spikes, but whether they were or not, it's not really relevant to what happened. Those bracers contained all his stored youth, and because he was a thousand years old, he was constantly tapping them to stay alive. Every once in a while, he needed to store a bit of it in a separate bead of atium, then burn that bead to create more youth to refill his bracers, but it's not something he was doing all the time, or even all that frequently, probably. Because he literally needed to have access to those bracers at all times to stay alive, he designed them so that they pierced his skin, and thus couldn't be Pushed/Pulled, at least by ordinary allomancers. If they also happened to be hemalurgic spikes....well, that doesn't really change any of the above. 

[Claincy he/him]

IGNORE THIS POST

The only thing accurate in it is the quote.

Every once in a while, he needed to store a bit of it in a separate bead of atium, then burn that bead to create more youth to refill his bracers, but it's not something he was doing all the time, or even all that frequently, probably.

Just for your information, we can be fairly certain that it was 3 hours once every 3 days at that time. It likely would have been much less frequent earlier in his rule.

 

 

"We're heading for a room at the very centre of that complex."

"What's inside?"

"I don't know," Kelsier said. "That's what we're going to find out. Once every three days-and today isn't one of them-the Lord Ruler visits this chamber. He stays for three hours, then leaves. I tried to get in once, three years ago."

The Final Empire early chapter 14

 

And when Vin breaks into the room she finds him there, storing atium.

Edited November 20, 2013 by lord_Ffnord

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Claincy

 

Not quite. He spent time old as a choice, not because he had to. He could have gotten away with compounding previously-compounded age—and probably still was, even in the hut, because he was just old, not a pile of bones, when Vin burst in on him. So he didn't need to set aside some special "old man" time just to store/compound/store a new supply of Age.

 

P.S. That quote took a devilishly long time to track down, I must say. 

[Claincy he/him]

@Kurkistan

 

Thankyou. You have no idea how long that has been bothering me, it never seemed to quite make sense.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Yeah, it didn't make much sense to me ether. During my epic quote-hunt, I even found a post back from 2011 where I was asking someone to ask Brandon about it.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Kurkistan