yankorro Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 After one abortive attempt I finally got out this week's email. As I noted in the mail... "Previously, Rose rolled into Angeltown after a short stay in the women's prison, just beginning her search for the legendary Western Manticore. She meets Prince, a ex-member of the Neoamerican (formerly New Mexican) aristocracy slumming in Angeltown who happens to be the nephew of Rose's protector at the prison, Amparo. Prince helps Rose find a place to stay, but the atmosphere of the Hotel El Dorado doesn't sit well with her and she decides to leave. So she heads into the desert, shacking up in an old shepherd's refuge. From there she hunts lizards and sketches maps of the territory until she runs into some of the locals, who chase her off, and one especially zealous youngster attacks her and tries to choke her out with a rope. Fade to black etc etc..." Let me know what's not working...you know * scenes that could be cut or rolled together * Parts that don't make sense * Things you liked etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jParker Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 I'm not sure why Mercedes trusts Prince/Rose so implicitly. I'm not sure of the regional ethnography, but the hillfolk of Appalachia (the Scots-Irish) are extremely distrustful of outsiders. Also, the purpose of the crossbow game is a bit confusing, as is why Bobby gave his away--those things are expensive/rare. On the whole, the piece moved a little slowly for me, but also lacked the same kind of literary patience that we'd seen before. I feel like maybe this submission was a bit rushed, but with some patient love and time, it could be pretty neat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon he/him Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 I think this chapter could be rolled into the last one as a "Rose meets the hillfolk" arc and then hopefully goes hunting for the Manticore next week. I liked the descriptions and how Prince explained their past, but I do have to say it was again a little slow. I'll agree the hillfolk shouldn't be trusting, but I can see how they would want to make amends for rash action, especially if done by an errant boy. They're untrusting, but also have a lot of pride. I took the crossbow lesson/giving as the reparation for the attack. Even though chapter 4 was only a page long, it held my attention better because there was more action. That said, it was a little confusing (where is the gray-haired man, what is his connection to the story, why is he talking to Maximiliano, and why is the waiter not moving?). I like the feel of the story overall, but at this point, as a reader, I'm ready for something to happen to reward my investment in the book. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankorro Posted November 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Thanks again for your feedback (and your patience with my slow-as-molasses storytelling), folks. It means a lot. First of all I have to say, I'm wondering: What exactly constitutes 'action'? 'Things' 'happening'? I'm not being facetious, I honestly think it would help me out if we defined our terms a little bit. Because in chapter three there's some talking, some shooting, some dancing and some more talking. And in chapter 4, more talking, and yet Mandamon you say there was more action in Chapter 4. What's creating that sensation? A related question: If, as you say, "I'm ready for something to happen to reward my investment in the book", what would it take to do such a thing? Point taken about the hillfolk and their trust issues. My thinking was as Mandamon says, they may not but the most trusting people but they have their honor, and want to make amends for their wrongs. Also, good catch Mandamon about there not being any sense of setting in Chapter 4. Will go back and add it in now. They're supposed to be in the same plaza in Angeltown where Rose has a run-in with a 'loverboy' and meets Prince. It's meant to parallel a) the first scene where the grey-haired man meets Rose and the scene where Rose meets the 'loverboy'. So if you're asking yourself 'where the heck are these people?' that's bad. If you're wondering 'what's this guy's connection to the story?' I'm tempted to say that's a good thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon he/him Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 I was asking where the grey-haired man was, as well as what his connection with the story was. So I guess a plus and a minus. On action: I've had to re-write this section about three times because I can't quite put my finger what I'm seeing. This is my best guess: You do have action, but I think it may be action without support. Every scene should be doing (at least) double duty in relation to the story. So while you have action-y things, none of them get Rose closer to the Manticore. Most of them are done to her, rather than her doing them. And when she's thinking about the Manticore, she's sitting in Angeltown or stalled in a shed for the night. Maybe take a look at the story and ask whether each scene is actively keeping Rose away from her goal and what she's (actively) doing to batter down that obstacle. So my investment in the book is, I want to see Things Happen to the main character, and how she struggles against adversity. Right now she isn't struggling, but sort of going with the flow while you describe the cool things that are going on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankorro Posted November 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Mandamon: Cool, thanks for clarifying. I will keep an eye on that! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two McMillion he/him Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 I think the biggest issue I see with this piece is a lack of conflict. Yes, we have Rose's quest for the Manticore, but that's really in the background right now, and so far all opposition has been temporary. I wonder if a better beginning for this piece wouldn't be an In Media Res opening- start with Rose in the middle of some important battle or something, and then flashback to what you're doing now. Because I think I understand what you're doing here- you're doing a lot of setup for payoff later. That's fine, but the reader needs reminding that the payoff is eventually going to come. In these situations, I think an In Media Res beginning could be a useful tool, since it means the reader has already seen that conflict is coming, and there is tension in how it will get there. Something to consider, IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyk he/him Posted November 26, 2013 Report Share Posted November 26, 2013 As with the previous chapters, I liked the setting and atmosphere building, but would have liked to get inside Rose's head more. You're clearly able to get across her thoughts and feelings without descending into excessive telling - that was apparent in the scene with the crossbow - but there's not much of that elsewhere, and for me that makes it harder to engage with the character. There were a few little things that distracted me. I found the old woman's anti-government speech a bit repetitive, and didn't understand why just taking off part of his outfit made Prince so unrecognisable to Rose. But there were also some nice little flourishes, like the description in the dance scene. I thought that the Maxi chapter was an interesting change of pace and bit of atmosphere building, but I'd have liked to have had some idea of who the grey haired man was and/or what his purpose was. Just something to give me a sense of how he fits in, without giving away the mystery you seem to be building there. I've also been thinking about your question about action. I think that, for me at least, it comes down to events that significantly change the progress of the plot or development of the characters, and/or challenge the characters. But I'm not sure I'm expressing what I mean very well here - just putting my current definition out there for others to debate / refine / shoot down. (Heh, shoot down, just made an accidental western joke. If that made me laugh it's probably time to go sleep.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski he/him Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Detailed comments below, but similar overview as before. I'm still enjoying the setting, the style and the characters, but remain frustrated that we don’t know how the characters feel about each other or the events that take place. I agree with Two McMillion about the lack of conflict. I think to some degree it goes back to my point about the invisibility of Rose’s motivation and her thoughts. If we knew how she felt about things, I think we would see some of the conflict that must be going on between her ears, for example doubts about the hillfolk (at least until they make peace with her); possible emotional conflict in terms of whatever feelings she may (or may not) have about Prince; negative thoughts about the locals who tried to stone her or the ranger. ----------------- Chapter 3 Again, I find the use of multiple ‘and’s in a sentence distracting. It seems rather too convenient that someone saw the attack on Rose. I find myself questioning how likely that would be in what, according the impression I’ve taken anyway, is a sparsely populated area with roads and trails being quiet. For me, adding redundant adverbs makes the prose disjointed. It’s obvious that Prince and the black woman are silent (up until Prince speaks) – no need to say so unless to describe that it’s drawn out, which it doesn’t seem to be. The reader has no basis for knowing that the black woman’s name is Mercedes. She needs to be introduced. (As she then is at the end of the passage.) ‘Suspicious of’ isn’t right, if Rose is acting suspiciously, she is the object of the suspicion, not its subject. Prince might say ‘Suspicious in what way?’ It sounds like all the men in the settlement are sharpening axes. I think a couple more activities would sound more realistic. ‘freak show’ seems a bit harsh. I’ve never shot a crossbow, but I’ve shot a (modern) long bow – as a complete novice. For someone who has never fired a bow before (I think that’s what I'm to take from the exchange with Prince), I find it hard to believe she could make a shot like that on the second go – with no instruction – how does she know to hold her breath? Also, I'm not sure why she gets so uptight about having an audience of kids – what’s it to her (or them) if she misses the rock 20 times? Why does Prince stay with Rose in the hillfolk village? I mean I can see the reasons, but this is an example of what I’ve said about earlier chapters, there’s little to no discussion or explanation of personal choices. I would expect there to be some kind of exchange better them. E.g. [Rose] ‘You don’t have to stay, Prince, they seem to have accepted me, I’ll be fine. I'm sure you have other things to do.’ [Prince] ‘No, Rose, it wouldn’t feel right to leave you. My aunt would never forgive me. Anyway, I'm between jobs at the moment.’ Which actually begs another question, what does Prince do, given that he seems to be able to run around after Rose all the time? I realise that he may be sacrificing other things because he actually likes her, and wants to be around her, but we don’t know that. This leads me to also observe that we’re in Chapter 3 and we haven’t had another viewpoint yet, although the chapters are very short. ‘...in her condition’ is redundant as you mention Rose’s injured neck at the start of the sentence. ‘goatmeat’ is two words, surely. Manticore appears as capitalised and as ‘manticore’, there’s a lack of consistency there. Either it’s the Manticore, or a manticore, I think. If Rose has be learning hillfolk recipes, wouldn’t she know what the vegetables were rather than them being unidentified? It’s frustrating when you throw in something like ‘Prince spat on the ground. It was something Rose had never seen him do before.’ Then just breeze on past it without any explanation. Rose should be puzzled, perhaps even challenge him about it, she knows him pretty well by now. ‘Fleeing the evils of civilization. You know, freedom and family and all...’ It sounds like he is quoting these as the evils of civilisation ironically, but I don’t think this makes sense. Freedom and family is exactly what the hillfolk have, surely, so they are not fleeing them at all, are they? I'm not sure it matters where he is being ironic or not, the statement does not seem to make sense, unless I’ve misunderstood the dynamic of the hillfolk settlement and society. Back to my old gripe, I don’t know what Rose feels about anything. How does she feel about Prince, about the hillfolk? There is very little to go on. She a Prince were sitting together at the end of the chapter, ruminating on life and their (her) situation, and ideal opportunity for her to consider how she feels about these things and what’s going on. I strikes me know that what we actually have is a story that has almost no character viewpoint at all, as if the reader is watching events on a CCTV camera. Chapter 4 Ah ha, a different viewpoint, and straight away we are hearing the man’s thoughts in a way that we don’t seem to with Rose. Is this the same old man from the train that Rose met? I'm not sure if it’s safe to assume that. Is that the end of Chapter 4? I'm not saying that I'm a slave to convention and need chapters to be the same length, but at this rate, there will be 100 chapters, unless you plan the story to be pretty short, which is allowed of course! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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