ruin's hemalurgic influence

[Oudeis]

Do the specifics of your hemalurgy affect how you are affected by Ruin (or Harmony) ?

[Moogle]

More spikes means more control. Ruin could never assume direct control of Vin, while he had no problem doing it for Marsh/Inquisitors/koloss.

 

I don't know if the type of spike matters, though. Kandra had two spikes, and quite a few were able to fight Ruin's influence. They tended to have more 'unique' types of spikes that granted increased mental fortitude, emotional fortitude, strength, or increased senses, and the first two might have conferred some measure of resistance against Ruin. Koloss had the same spikes that granted strength, I believe, and they were easily controlled by Ruin... but of course they also had four where the kandra had only two.

 

TenSoon had two Blessings, which would have meant he also had four spikes. He was able to stave off Ruin, though I'm not sure if he had all four spikes in at the end. I was left with the impression that the Kandra resisting Ruin was more due to their 'orderly' culture where they were brought up to obey the Contract, but it could be due to the fact that they weren't human, or their type of spikes. Or all three.

 

The evidence is not very clear. It's hard to speculate when we know so little about Hemalurgy. I would guess that the type of spike matters insofar as how much you can be controlled (spikes granting more mental fortitude would allow you to resist commands), but I'm not sure if that changes how you're affected.

[Voidus]

The Kandra's blessing of Presence negates Ruins control somewhat (This as one of TenSoons blessings and the reason he wasn't as easily controlled despite having 4 spikes)
But other than that one type and the number of spikes I don't think there's any difference

[Claincy]

I would hazard a guess that there is some difference in how easy they are to control based on the type of spikes. I think that iron spikes (steal human strength) that Koloss have are potentially worse than a lot of others given the relative ease with which koloss are controlled.

[dj26792]

I would disagree with that, I've always assumed that the reason Koloss are so easy to control is that they have the mental capacity of a particularly intelligent peanut and so they can't comprehend resisting, and possibly can't even recognise they're being manipulated.

[Oudeis]

I asked because we know Zane and Spook both had steel spikes granting them physical allomancy, and the voice they both heard was frequently (if not constantly) ordering them to kill. In "The Eleventh Metal" Gemmel says something that really makes it sound like he's hearing a voice telling him to kill people. Or at least just Kelsier. Though in his case, if I had to train Kelsier, I imagine I'd get frustrated, too.

 

Whereas Reen's voice in Vin's head tells her not to trust people, to be alone, not to kill people. Penrod gets the same metal spike, also for mental allomancy; I'm getting close to the part in the book where he shows Ruin's influence, and I wonder what he'll say.

 

The impression I get is, when Ruin is influencing you, that's a constant thing, or he can talk to you expressly when he feels like it. I wonder if the "Ruin's not here right now" call-waiting that you get when his attention is elsewhere depends specifically on the metal of the spike in you; will everyone with a Steel spike hear a voice telling them to kill everyone?

 

I also wonder; do we ever see Ruin take absolute control over anyone that isn't a hemalurgic creation? I know we've seen him guide the hands of the insane, or people with one or two spikes, but apart from nudges like that I don't believe we've ever seen him take literal control of such a person. Is it possible he can only do that if you're an actual hemalurgic creation, not simply a hemalurgist?

 

Which phrasing is a bit odd... I consider the hemalurgist to be "the person with a spike in him," which isn't necessarily the same as "the person who knows how hemalurgy works" or even, for that matter, "the person who knows that hemalurgy is a thing."

[Shardlet]

I suspect it is a function of the number of spikes, the strength of the spikes, and the nature of the ability granted to an extent (like TenSoon's blessing of presence helping him to resist).

[Vortaan]

I asked because we know Zane and Spook both had steel spikes granting them physical allomancy, and the voice they both heard was frequently (if not constantly) ordering them to kill. In "The Eleventh Metal" Gemmel says something that really makes it sound like he's hearing a voice telling him to kill people. Or at least just Kelsier. Though in his case, if I had to train Kelsier, I imagine I'd get frustrated, too.

 

Whereas Reen's voice in Vin's head tells her not to trust people, to be alone, not to kill people. Penrod gets the same metal spike, also for mental allomancy; I'm getting close to the part in the book where he shows Ruin's influence, and I wonder what he'll say.

 

The impression I get is, when Ruin is influencing you, that's a constant thing, or he can talk to you expressly when he feels like it. I wonder if the "Ruin's not here right now" call-waiting that you get when his attention is elsewhere depends specifically on the metal of the spike in you; will everyone with a Steel spike hear a voice telling them to kill everyone?

 

I also wonder; do we ever see Ruin take absolute control over anyone that isn't a hemalurgic creation? I know we've seen him guide the hands of the insane, or people with one or two spikes, but apart from nudges like that I don't believe we've ever seen him take literal control of such a person. Is it possible he can only do that if you're an actual hemalurgic creation, not simply a hemalurgist?

 

Which phrasing is a bit odd... I consider the hemalurgist to be "the person with a spike in him," which isn't necessarily the same as "the person who knows how hemalurgy works" or even, for that matter, "the person who knows that hemalurgy is a thing."

 

Couple things here. First, Ruin's goals for Zane and Spook were always different than those with Vin. Getting both of them to act more homicidally was in Ruin's direct benefit. For the same reason, Penrod's actions after being spiked are pretty in line with what Ruin needed him to do. The main thing that Ruin needed Vin for was freeing him, so throwing her into a bunch of situations where she could die was not particularly useful. However, having her run away from her friends and be distrustful of people really could help to serve Ruin's purposes.

 

Hemalurgic spikes seem to have an increased effect the more of them you have. This has been expressed before by the tearing that the process puts into someone's Spirit Web makes them easier to influence. If you look at Spook and Vin, for example, neither of them are particularly bloodthirsty while spiked. Yes, they do brutally violent things, but not nearly with the same relish and enjoyment as a Zane or a Marsh. I would wager that the influence being spiked at all has on you is to lean you towards more destructive means of conflict resolution, rather than more conservation based means.

 

As for Ruin taking absolute control of anyone who's not a Hemalurgic creation, not so far. I doubt he'd be able to, and honestly he wasn't even able to take "complete" control of Marsh. There was still that resting part of him that was... well, him.

[Claincy]

As for Ruin taking absolute control of anyone who's not a Hemalurgic creation, not so far. I doubt he'd be able to, and honestly he wasn't even able to take "complete" control of Marsh. There was still that resting part of him that was... well, him.

The biggest question here is "What defines the difference between someone with spikes and a haemalurgic creation." We can pretty safely say that Vin, Phenrod, Zane, Spook,etc were people with spikes, each having only one. But a koloss with 4 is definitely a haemalurgic creation and a kandra with only 2 is also one. Perhaps then the definition of a haemalurigc creation is that ruin can control them.

[Oudeis]

Yes, they do brutally violent things, but not nearly with the same relish and enjoyment as a Zane or a Marsh. I would wager that the influence being spiked at all has on you is to lean you towards more destructive means of conflict resolution, rather than more conservation based means.

 

...But Zane DID have only one hemalurgic spike... that we know of, I suppose. Are you suggesting you think he had more?

 

 

The biggest question here is "What defines the difference between someone with spikes and a haemalurgic creation." We can pretty safely say that Vin, Phenrod, Zane, Spook,etc were people with spikes, each having only one. But a koloss with 4 is definitely a haemalurgic creation and a kandra with only 2 is also one. Perhaps then the definition of a haemalurigc creation is that ruin can control them.

 

I figure the difference is, once the spikes actually adjust you in such a way that you are no longer biologically human, you're a hemalurgic creation, which I'd suspect goes hand-in-hand with Ruin's ability to exercise direct (near-)complete control. I think a single iron spike will change you physically, but only to the extent that anabolic steroids would; you're different than you were, but not literally inhuman. At some point you've got flabby blue skin, and at that point you are not human, and now you're a hemalurgic creation.

[Claincy]

I figure the difference is, once the spikes actually adjust you in such a way that you are no longer biologically human, you're a hemalurgic creation, which I'd suspect goes hand-in-hand with Ruin's ability to exercise direct (near-)complete control. I think a single iron spike will change you physically, but only to the extent that anabolic steroids would; you're different than you were, but not literally inhuman. At some point you've got flabby blue skin, and at that point you are not human, and now you're a hemalurgic creation.

Yeah I kinda figured the biological human part. Main trouble is, how do you define a biological human? Clearly at the point of having kollos skin you aren't really human anymore (though human would debate that). But while it can often be clear that something isn't human, it is much harder to define at what point someone stops being biologically human.

[Bean]

While we are on the topic of how much ruin can control you, would a hemalurgisticaly enhanced individual burning copper be harder to control? Because if marsh had a split second of freedom and he could burn copper in that second I wonder if he could have thrown off ruin. We know you can take control via emotional allomancy and the one burning copper is more resistant to emotional allomancy. I don't think they are actually immune. Vin felt the Lord rulers touch through a coppercloud right?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Bean

[Oudeis]

While we are on the topic of how much ruin can control you, would a hemalurgisticaly enhanced individual burning copper be harder to control? Because if marsh had a split second of freedom and he could burn copper in that second I wonder if he could have thrown off ruin. We know you can take control via emotional allomancy and the one burning copper is more resistant to emotional allomancy. I don't think they are actually immune. Vin felt the Lord rulers touch through a coppercloud right?

 

I have long wondered this. I don't have the quotes to hand right now, but my last read-through, the control Ruin had over Marsh, and his influence on Vin, both seemed to be deliberately related to emotional allomancy, so I wondered what effect a coppercloud would have. I think I agree with you that Ruin's sheer difference in power would render the cloud moot, but the theory remains sound.

 

Though, does Marsh have the power of Copper?

[Claincy]

I have long wondered this. I don't have the quotes to hand right now, but my last read-through, the control Ruin had over Marsh, and his influence on Vin, both seemed to be deliberately related to emotional allomancy, so I wondered what effect a coppercloud would have. I think I agree with you that Ruin's sheer difference in power would render the cloud moot, but the theory remains sound.

 

Though, does Marsh have the power of Copper?

Yeah I was thinking similarly regarding the effects of the coppercloud. But something to consider, if a coppercloud is insignificant at blocking ruins influence then is the blessing of stability equally futile against Ruin?

 

I would figure that Marsh and at least most of the inquisitors have copper. Simply because sometimes they would want to go undetected which could be a bit tricky if they cannot burn copper. Also, I seem to remember it was Marsh who followed Vin in Fadrex, if that is the case then he definitely had copper. Does anyone recall if this is the case? Or was it just Ruin playing mind games?

[Vortaan]

...But Zane DID have only one hemalurgic spike... that we know of, I suppose. Are you suggesting you think he had more?

 

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Zane got a double dose of Ruin influence by being crazy first, then being spiked. I can't remember where, but it's implied he put in his spike himself, so... yeah. Crazypants plus spike probably gives Ruin closer to Inquisitor control than just spiked.

[Shardlet]

He did spike himself.  Granted, Ruin convinced him to do it.  However, there doesn't seem to be any indication that Ruin ever took control of Zane.  Whether he could or not, I don't know.  

[dj26792]

My understanding of that situation is that crazy people have a harder time recognising Ruins influence and take less convincing to do something.  As in he doesn't have more control, they're just more likely to do what he wants anyway.  

[Shardlet]

But, the fact is that Ruin can reach the crazy folks and influence them.  He can't do that to the sane.  Even with Vin, who is clearly broken, Ruin can't speak to her unless her earring is in.  That suggests that being insane gives Ruin some power over them (not necessarily control).

[Vortaan]

He did spike himself.  Granted, Ruin convinced him to do it.  However, there doesn't seem to be any indication that Ruin ever took control of Zane.  Whether he could or not, I don't know.  

 

I guess what I was getting at is that Zane is closest to acting like an Inquisitor out of all the spiked people we've seen. Spook, Vin, the Citizen, and Penrod all seemed a lot less bloodthirsty than Zane did. 

[Shardlet]

One of the key factors I think is what were they like before Ruin got them and how did Ruin exercise his manipulation of them.  Ruin clearly had a critical purpose for Vin.  He needed to be more subtle with his manipulation of her.  Especially since she went through long periods of times where he was not able to exercise much influence at all (she spent a long time with the earring out before joining Kelsier's crew).  If he came on too strong, he would have tipped his hand.  Spook and Penrod were both good people (they had flaws of course, but good overall).  I wonder why Ruin wanted to spike Spook.  Ruin already knew from Vin that the atium wasn't in Urtreau and he already had aspike in the leader of the town.  Urtreau was on a downhill path regardless of Spook's efforts.  With Penrod, he just needed to have Luthadel lose its stability.

 

Zane is a whole different ball of wax.  An insane mistborn.  Sounds like a playground for Ruin.  Once he got Zane to spike himself, Ruin could constantly feed Zane whatever he wanted to deepen the cracks in his mind.  Even in Zane's death Ruin taunts him by lying and saying Zane was not insane (when he most certainly was).  I don't think Ruin could outright control Zane (like he did with the inquisitors), I just think Ruin enjoyed having essentially a bottle rocket with a short stick.  

[Aether]

I wonder why Ruin wanted to spike Spook.  Ruin already knew from Vin that the atium wasn't in Urtreau and he already had aspike in the leader of the town.  Urtreau was on a downhill path regardless of Spook's efforts.  With Penrod, he just needed to have Luthadel lose its stability.

It might not have been essential, but in his mind, having spiked a member of Kelsier's original crew - regardless of him arguably being the least important one - would undoubtedly prove useful. He'd probably try to spike the lot of them if he'd been given half a chance.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Aether

[Vortaan]

It might not have been essential, but in his mind, having spiked a member of Kelsier's original crew - regardless of him arguably being the least important one - would undoubtedly prove useful. He'd probably try to spike the lot of them if he'd been given half a chance.

 

Also, look at what Spook accomplished. If he hadn't pulled out the spike, the whole city would have probably burned down... not too bad for the least important member of the crew.