ivoryblade Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 The fall of the KR occurred after the Last Desolation, which people believe involved the Heralds taking the battle against the Voidbringers up to the Tranquiline Halls. If the Voidbringers were gone, what would have been the use of the KR? Why was it so bad that they disbanded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 I have a few thoughts... The KR were being used to fight "devils" (see: Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep). So they were definitely needed for a war, though not necessarily against Voidbringers. They abandoned that fight. The men who took up their Shards were the worst sorts, those willing to kill to get at the weapons. For a while just after the Recreance, the people with Shards might have pretended to be (or people just assumed them to be) Radiants. So, if you've got a bunch of invincible warlords with Blades and Plates going around murdering and taking power(?), and people think they're Radiants, that's going to sully their reputation. The Radiants locked down Urithiru, which was a central hub for trade. It's hard to overstate how valuable literal teleportation is and how much it contributes to the economy. Imagine if every highway blew up tomorrow: it'd be chaos. This would very easily be hated by the majority of people. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Plus, you never know what you might need Radiants for. They're the protectors of humankind. Possibly symbols of hope and salvation. Paragons of virtue only just beneath the Heralds. Imagine if you're someone from a comic book universe, and every superhero in the world declares that they quit. It would probably be terrible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivoryblade Posted September 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) I have a few thoughts... The KR were being used to fight "devils" (see: Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep). So they were definitely needed for a war, though not necessarily against Voidbringers. They abandoned that fight. The men who took up their Shards were the worst sorts, those willing to kill to get at the weapons. For a while just after the Recreance, the people with Shards might have pretended to be (or people just assumed them to be) Radiants. So, if you've got a bunch of invincible warlords with Blades and Plates going around murdering and taking power(?), and people think they're Radiants, that's going to sully their reputation. The Radiants locked down Urithiru, which was a central hub for trade. It's hard to overstate how valuable literal teleportation is and how much it contributes to the economy. Imagine if every highway blew up tomorrow: it'd be chaos. This would very easily be hated by the majority of people. Regarding your first point, I doubt the people would hate on the KR for that. Their conception of history is so distorted they barely even know what Voidbringers are. I highly doubt they would have known there were other creatures who posed a threat other than Voidbringers. The people have believed themselves safe, that they’ve won, after the Last Desolation. Regarding your second point, if the people were hating on the KR because they had gone about killing people, then wouldn’t Dalinar, who knew the truth from his visions, have felt compelled to speak otherwise? And regarding your third point, while it is very valid, I don’t think that’s the main reason. Otherwise it wouldn’t be considered a failure of Vorinism; just an economic failure. Edited September 19, 2015 by ivoryblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari he/him Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 The Knights Radiant were about more than protection. They were about ideals, and inspiration. What message does it send to people if the inspiring force for your entire religion doesn't just up and vanish, but in fact, goes away specifically because they chose to betray those ideals? That they abandon their weapons to looters, thieves, and murderers? That they give away their ability to heal, to protect? It undermines the whole faith of Vorinism- those who were pretty devout would be incensed. Those who aren't would still have lost the protection, trade, healing, and the practical aspect of the Right Of Travel due to the oathgates being inaccessible. When a group that you rely on goes away, hatred is a more than understandable reaction, especially for a group as integral to a society as the Knights Radiant were to the Vorin nations. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirahound she/her Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Regarding your first point, I doubt the people would hate on the KR for that. Their conception of history is so distorted they barely even know what Voidbringers are. I highly doubt they would have known there were other creatures who posed a threat other than Voidbringers. The people have believed themselves safe, that they’ve won, after the Last Desolation. The people of Dalinar's day don't necessarily need to know the history behind the Recreance, only the betrayal their ancestors felt. The way I see it, everyone living during the Recreance felt incredibly betrayed by the KR abandoning them. That sense of betrayal grew into hate, then was absorbed by the Vorin faith, then was passed down through the generations and compounded over and over again until it was just an ingrained hatred in everyone else. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degamound Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 The Feverstone Keep vision has bugged me since we saw Kaladin oaths break and how dramatic it was for him, what ever this thing that is supposed to be able break the knights radiant has to be devastating, but the sequence seems weird and we find out that the stormfather gives the vision to Daliner as they bond and because he was instructed to do so by Honor;however, Syl also tells us hes broken and i wonder if this vision in particular has been altered. Dozens of knight show up having broken their oath or in the process of breaking them and just drop their weapons and leave. I think this is symbolic and tainted by the Stormfather from how he sees his people being destroyed by these stone faced traitors who go back to their fun in the sun lives after breaking their oaths cause shouldn't their be more shardblades if this scene happened? Their were dozens of people who did this but their is only 50 or so blades known and some unknown ones as we see with the assassin Liss but their should be more blades. So i think something happened at Feverstone Keep, maybe the discovery of the something that breaks KR and that is why he symbolized this as the protectors,windrunners, arriving and breaking their oaths. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirahound she/her Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 The Feverstone Keep vision has bugged me since we saw Kaladin oaths break and how dramatic it was for him, what ever this thing that is supposed to be able break the knights radiant has to be devastating, but the sequence seems weird and we find out that the stormfather gives the vision to Daliner as they bond and because he was instructed to do so by Honor;however, Syl also tells us hes broken and i wonder if this vision in particular has been altered. Dozens of knight show up having broken their oath or in the process of breaking them and just drop their weapons and leave. I think this is symbolic and tainted by the Stormfather from how he sees his people being destroyed by these stone faced traitors who go back to their fun in the sun lives after breaking their oaths cause shouldn't their be more shardblades if this scene happened? Their were dozens of people who did this but their is only 50 or so blades known and some unknown ones as we see with the assassin Liss but their should be more blades. So i think something happened at Feverstone Keep, maybe the discovery of the something that breaks KR and that is why he symbolized this as the protectors,windrunners, arriving and breaking their oaths. I... had never thought of it like that before. Interesting theory! I personally think that what happened at Feverstone Keep was real, but I will definitely be watching for something like this in the back of my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Regarding your first point, I doubt the people would hate on the KR for that. Their conception of history is so distorted they barely even know what Voidbringers are. I highly doubt they would have known there were other creatures who posed a threat other than Voidbringers. The people have believed themselves safe, that they’ve won, after the Last Desolation. I disagree strongly. Deserters are seen as without honor and hated in most cultures I can think of. The "devils" (Aimians, perhaps) were most likely involved in a big war. (There were front lines, for example, and they were willing to spend men fortifying places.) Deserting during the middle of a war is sure to make people hate you. Just because there's no more Desolations does not mean people don't care about wars. The Desolation is not the only important thing on Roshar! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Almighty knows war never stops on Roshar, anyway. They'll always find something to fight over, like us hopeless earthlings. The Knights were practically gods of the battlefield, likely a necessity for war by now, the dishonor would be greater than ordinary deserters simply due to how necessary they were. The Heralds themselves left humanity to the Knights Radiant, even. And they just go "storm this, I'm out of here". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 It should also be noted that the Recreance is viewed as the first failure of Vorinism. This means that the KR were a prominent facet of Vorinism. After the KR left everybody hanging in the middle of the war, Vorinism would have been on the edge of a cliff so to speak. I would not be surprised if the leaders of Vorinism made a choice to smear and vilify the KR as fallen in order to get out in front of their predicament and make an effort not only to survive as an organization/religion, but also to maintain their power base as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprint Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Why did the original Knight Radiant break their oaths at Feverstone Keep? I assumed it was in revolt because their patron heralds broke their own oathpacts by failing to return to their endless torture at the end of the desolation. The passage of time and other discussions above give good ideas of why they fell from grace in the intervening centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Why did the original Knight Radiant break their oaths at Feverstone Keep? I assumed it was in revolt because their patron heralds broke their own oathpacts by failing to return to their endless torture at the end of the desolation. We know that it was not because the Heralds broke the Oathpact by WoB. A bunch more discussion can be found in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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