Kurkistan he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) As I addressed higher up, I think the Spiritual is pretty much bustling with connections and whatnot. It seems that "life sense" is Spiritual, as well as generally connections between people. See: Feruchemical duralumin as a Spiritual metal that increases or decreases your "connection" with others. I think that the Spiritual would be quite affected by the disappearance of people and things. Aside: Does your theory have a problem with a city and its inhabitants existing only in Shadesmar? Edited October 23, 2013 by Kurkistan
Argent he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 As I addressed higher up, I think the Spiritual is pretty much bustling with connections and whatnot. It seems that "life sense" is Spiritual, as well as generally connections between people. Considering that Shai tells Gaotana that the "Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul— its essence— as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it," I think it's safe to say that it doesn't just seem this way.
Kurkistan he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 Well yes, that too. I tend to forget when I actually have evidence.
Gloom he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) As I addressed higher up, I think the Spiritual is pretty much bustling with connections and whatnot. It seems that "life sense" is Spiritual, as well as generally connections between people. See: Feruchemical duralumin as a Spiritual metal that increases or decreases your "connection" with others. I think that the Spiritual would be quite affected by the disappearance of people and things. Aside: Does your theory have a problem with a city and its inhabitants existing only in Shadesmar? I believe the Spiritual is connected to the Physical, but isn't dependent on the Physical to exist. That the Spiritual is another state of existence. It is the power of transition. Yes, it is connected to everything in the Physical, I believe that the Cognitive is also connected to everything in the Physical. The difference is that the Cognitive is reliant on the Physical, while the Spiritual can exist independently of the Physical. Our theories differ in how we regard the interactions between these realms. I don't believe that the Spiritual interacts with the Cognitive unless the Physical is present, or a Shard forces the interaction. I don't believe that the Cognitive is capable of interacting with the Spiritual unless a force (Physical, or Shard) is present to bridge the gap between them. I believe the Spiritual could bridge the gap should it desire to do so, but I don't think the Spiritual has a need for the Cognitive outside the presence of the Physical. I believe that the Cognitive realm is supplementary to the Physical. I believe it is dependent upon the Physical. Not just the Physical, but the cognizant beings within the Physical. My theory does not have a problem with any physical objects or beings existing or moving through the Cognitive. If something physical is present, then the Spiritual is bridged into the Cognitive. My theory would have a problem with a Cognitive being accessing the Spiritual, or a Spiritual being having need of the Cognitive for it's own purposes. Purposes that do not include the Physical. Physical — Can access both Spiritual and Cognitive. Cognitive — Can access the Physical — A physical being or Shard can bridge the gap between the Cognitive and Spiritual. Spiritual — Can access the Physical — Could bridge the gap without assistance but only requires the Cognitive for interaction with cognizant beings. All three forces exist in the Physical. I believe the Physical is reliant upon both the Spiritual and the Cognitive. Edited October 23, 2013 by Gloom
Kurkistan he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) To be clear on the "city in Shadesmar" point, the implication was that it was spren that were inhabitants of Shadesmar: spren that you hold to be Spiritual and only able to access the Cognitive at all with great effort through being tied to the Physical. You might be okay with this, but I just want to be sure we're on the same page here. Overall, I guess I'm just not feeling your theory. I don't think it necessary or suggested by the data to any large extent. But I've thrown most of the quotes I can think of off the top of my head at it already, so I suppose that's that. For old times' sake, I'll just toss a "That's a very interesting way to look at it. The theory isn't all there, but it's thinking along the right lines" in in regards to the theory that the Cognitive executes Spiritual directives, as well as all three Realms interacting. Not the most solid answer nor the most focused question, but I find it reassuring nonetheless. Edited October 23, 2013 by Kurkistan
Gloom he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 Oh, I don't think that all spren are Spiritual. I believe that those spren that live in the Cognitive are mostly of the Cognitive — as a result, they are mostly incapable of action without a bond to the Physical. Other spren (like Syl) are mostly of the Spiritual — but lack the ability to communicate with the Physical effectively without the aid of the Physical connection to the Cognitive. Spren were, and I believe we have WoB on this, originally created by Adonalsium. Adonalsium likely had a great deal of influence over the realms. I don't believe that Adonalsium was the only force or had full control of the Cosmere, because Brandon has said that other forces exist, but I think that the interference of Adonalsium qualifies as intervention. He was capable of breaking the rules as he saw fit. As a side note, I believe the power left behind by Adonalsium was one of the reasons that Roshar became a high priority for Odium. At the Shattering of Adonalsium all the Shards were fairly evenly matched in strength. If Odium could pick up stray investiture left behind by Adonalsium, it might give him an edge against Harmony.
Argent he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 I am not yet ready to formulate my own realmatic theory, but I think there is an interesting bit of information you should consider when debating the realms. "Cognitive" is perhaps not the most ideal name for Shadesmar, because we are too used to associating cognition with living things, consciousness, and intellect. Inanimate objects, however, also have a presence, or a signature, in the Cognitive Realm - the goblet of Shallan's first Soulcasting, for example. Here is, once again, what must look like my favorite quote from TES, considering how often I use it... “All things exist in three Realms, Gaotona. Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. The Physical is what we feel, what is before us. The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself. The Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul— its essence— as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.” As a software developer, this reminds me vaguely of the process behind the engineering of an application. The Spiritual Realm is the high-level description of what everything is and how it relates to everything else (a UML diagram for those in the know). The Cognitive Realm works off the information provided by the Spiritual, effectively fleshing out those rules, laws, descriptions, and blueprints provided by the latter; it could be considered the source code of our application. Finally, the Physical Realm is the manifestation of all that - it's the program we can see and interact with. So much for not formulating my own theory...
Kurkistan he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) @ArgentThe computer-sciency definition might end up being too much of a simplification, if we allow for changes to flow in any direction between the Realms. That said, I agree with you that that you've come upon a fair way of describing a large part of the normal functioning of the Realms. Myself, it took me a bit before I fully realized how much Cognitive execution reminds me of procedural generation.If you don't want to formulate your own brand new theory, you could just espouse mine instead. -In all seriousness, though, you would likely be able to benefit from developing/adapting some of my ideas. The MEC needs a bit of work after all the new info we've gotten.Some samples: So:Spiritual: Motivating forces, rules, physical laws - the logos of the system.Cognitive: Middle ground between Spiritual and Physical. Interprets Spiritual directives in the context of the Physical realm, alters the Spiritual realm on occasion (soul-changing (?) and magic) as a result of behavior in the Physical realm, and has its own (malleable?) set of rules on how to interpret directives from either of the other realms.Physical: Where the directives of the Spiritual/Cognitive realms come to fruition, with these directives altering the nature and layout of the Physical realm and so being altered in turn. Where you see everything happening, while the other two realms are more behind the scenes.To put it in unnecessarily computer-architectural-ish terms:The Spiritual is the rule set and command line, the Cognitive is where the computations are actually executed based upon inputs from the Spiritual, and the Physical is where the results of these actions are displayed and stored. Changes introduced in the Physical realm then alter the state of the Cognitive and, possibly Spiritual realms during the next cycle. Magic, in particular, hijacks the Spiritual realm and hacks in new rule sets to enable non-normal changes in the Cognitive and Physical realms. Another: Kurkistan: Would it be fair to describe the three realms as the Spiritual realm providing motivation/general directives (gravity, desires, energy, etc.), the Cognitive realm interpreting and applying those directives, and the Physical realm as where these directives--as interpreted by the Cognitive realm--are actually implemented? All of this with interactions/change flowing back and forth between the realms as well (Physical phenomena affecting thought affecting the spirit, for example). Brandon: That's a very interesting way to look at it. The theory isn't all there, but it's thinking along the right lines. Edited October 24, 2013 by Kurkistan
Recommended Posts