Bloodmaker vs Soother/Rioter

[Shadowspren he/him]

I had a thought over the weekend, thought I should ask, 

 

In the original trilogy, Vin does a few Duralumin powered soothing hits on people which leave them completely dull minded.

If one was a bloodmaker, would tapping their metalminds do anything to help them if this happened? or would it not affect their mental state? 

 

Also, could one flare Tin to counter the effects somewhat? 

 

And just thinking about it now, would you be able to get the same dull-minded result from a tin savant? or would their senses be too acute to cause it?

 

[Oudeis he/him]

Hrm. What exactly are you asking, here? Are you asking about, could "healing" protect you from the moment of the Soothing itself, or from the psychological trauma of having experienced that moment, like how Straff was a little unhinged afterwards?

 

I find the second to be more fascinating. I'm gonna say no. We know cosmere healing heals physical wounds, we know it heals spiritual wounds. Something like a trauma disorder would prolly be a cognitive wound. The problem there is, we know healing doesn't heal things that you think are a part of you. The insidiousness of mental disorders is, in part, that they convince your brain they belong, like a cuckoo bird. Beyond which, Miles seems to have a few things which might be considered conditions, and healing hasn't made him any more lucid of a person, so it seems psychological trauma is beyond healing's ability to, well, heal.

 

As for the first, I wouldn't expect so. It's not really a wound, in any real sense of the word. The case could be made that if you draw out enough health quickly enough, you might simply become so Invested as to fight off the Soothing but I feel like that would take ungodly amounts, since we know Scadrial is a relatively low-Investiture world (or, as I prefer to call it, more bang for your buck). No damage is being done to you. Your emotions are simply less than they might be, admittedly by an extreme amount. It's possible, but it seems outside of gold's purview. If it could protect you from extremes of emotions, wouldn't Miles not have shot Peterus out of what he admits in the privacy of his own mind was momentary blinding rage?

 

I absolutely see no case for tin affecting anything. Tin is expressly the physical senses. It can affect how well you feel a wool coat, but it cannot affect how much you feel "sad". That's simply apples and oranges. If this trick were used on Spook, he'd be getting the exact same input from his heightened senses, and it would have no affect on the fact that for a moment he simply doesn't care about anything.

[Ascendant Warrior he/him]

I think the idea is that Vin flares tin often to clear her head after being dazed.  In this sense, I think it may be possible.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Ascendant Warrior

[Zephryl]

I believe she does that when injured though, so that the sharp spike of pain clears the senses, which wouldn't have an affect on being Dura-Soothed.

 

It's not that the Dura-Soothed people have their thoughts muddled, or blocked in any way, they're the exact same people just completely devoid of any emotion. They can look at someone and recognize them as their mortal enemy, but they would be completely unable to muster up the emotional drive required to actually care about it, and do something.

 

I think the more reasonable question would be if there's any natural impulses that completely bypass that? Obviously all the subconscious things like Breathing aren't affected, but could you Dura-Soothe someone who's swimming and have them drown?

[Yata he/him]

As oudeis said the cosmere's healing work with a Mental Image of you. If you suffer a mental disorder, you couldn,t be able to mantain the right mental image.

 

Virtually a quite mindless bein who try to heal could kills himself.

[Oudeis he/him]

I think the idea is that Vin flares tin often to clear her head after being dazed.  In this sense, I think it may be possible.

 

What Zephryl said. What this "helps" is when someone is dazed or tired; when they have difficulty focusing their thoughts. The shock of pain gives them the ability to focus. Someone affected by a duralumin-Soothing isn't dazed, and they aren't unfocused. They simply feel a horrible and total emptiness. At the actual moment it doesn't even feel bad, because you aren't feeling anything. The simple addition of sensory input wouldn't affect this at all; when Vin flares Tin, she doesn't suddenly get angrier, or happier, or sadder. It's a solution to a problem other than duralumin-Soothing.

[Tellingdwar he/him]

What about tapping electrum? Or Aluminum?

[Oudeis he/him]

Aluminum, who knows. We've only the faintest notion what it does. Unless it makes you immune to Investiture as a whole, I'd be surprised. I'm not sure anyone really identifies themselves expressly as "a person who is currently experiencing a certain level of emotions."

I feel like there was a recent WoB saying if Soothing happens in the Cognitive or Spiritual realm... if it happens in the Spiritual, maybe aluminum would do something, as what little we know of aluminum is that it's Spiritual. If it happens in Cognitive, I think the current evidence indicates that there'd be minimal interaction.

 

Electrum... maybe. Determination is an emotion, yes? So you'd feel at least that, more so than if you weren't tapping. I'd feel more confident answering this question if we knew more about it or had seen it be used, but on evidence I expect it would mitigate it some. What would it feel like to be determined, but to feel no other emotion? Can you be "determined" to feel other emotions?

[Patar he/him]

What about storing zinc? Would increased mental speed allow one to realize they are being soothed, and perhaps allow them to fight the effects?

[Oudeis he/him]

If you're talking about tapping zinc, I have no idea. I would say not, on balance. Anyone who knows what Soothing is knows they're being Soothed by duralumin, and cannot do anything about it. Straff knew what Soothing was, and was aware that Vin was toying with his emotions; that, if anything, made his trauma worse.

 

I don't see it helping with the actual moment of apathy. If Straff could have simply thought about being angrier I suspect he'd've done that. Are you talking about the aftermath, how Straff had issues going forward stemming from the trauma? Perhaps. Depending on how tapped zinc works, it might help you to deal with the event as it's happening, and thereby have it be less traumatic, letting you move on once it's over.

 

However, you actually talked about storing zinc. Could that help? Could you make time seem to go by faster, be too dim-witted to fully realize what's happening to you? Again, I don't see it helping in the moment; you'll just be apathetic and now also stupid. But, it might help you survive the trauma better.

 

How about hemalurgy? Could hemalurgic zinc or copper help? I don't see copper helping, for the reasons above re: feruchemical zinc. However, allomantic zinc? Kandra themselves, and their Blessings, are perhaps a separate issue. We have WoB, I believe, that the Blessing of Stability helps to fight off control via things like allomancy, but to what extent? How much overkill is there in a normal burst? We know koloss can be taken by Vin burning without duralumin, but not by Breeze, and kandra can be taken by neither. So, that I know of, we have no idea. Moving on.

 

However, just a person with a spike? Does one spike make one already more susceptible to emotional allomancy, and if so, to what extent? Vin does comment that she can feel the Lord Ruler's Soothing through copper, and Kelsier claims he can't. We've been assuming he was just trying to protect himself with denial, but maybe her earring really made her more susceptible.

 

So, I'd suggest that a copper spike would be worse. You'd have the minor Flaw of a spike, and the power itself would mitigate the problem only minimally. However, I think a zinc spike would likely end up with a net benefit. Hard to say, with how little we know of hemalurgy as a whole and zinc hemalurgy, specifically.

[Yata he/him]

How about hemalurgy? Could hemalurgic zinc or copper help? I don't see copper helping, for the reasons above re: feruchemical zinc. However, allomantic zinc? Kandra themselves, and their Blessings, are perhaps a separate issue. We have WoB, I believe, that the Blessing of Stability helps to fight off control via things like allomancy, but to what extent? How much overkill is there in a normal burst? We know koloss can be taken by Vin burning without duralumin, but not by Breeze, and kandra can be taken by neither. So, that I know of, we have no idea. Moving on.

 

This is the WoB

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct, 2008

Hero of Ages Q&A - TWG (Verbatim)

DALENTHAS (15 OCTOBER 2008)

Was TenSoon more susceptible to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings?

BRANDON SANDERSON (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Yes, he was. However, the Blessing of Presence actually enhanced his mind to make him more resistant, so they balanced out.

From the WoB we know that a Kandra with 4 spike (therefore a Koloss like) are susceptible like a ordinary Kandra with only two spike.

 

So we can tell that when Tensoon was "dominate" by Vin, she must use the Standard controlling-power-for-kandra.

 

Mmmm probably the Third Generation could match quite well the Ruin's control, but they wasn't many in the Homeland.

[Oudeis he/him]

Eh... I hesitate to say that we know all spikes are equal. And keep in mind, koloss were once human, and kandra were most recently mistwraiths. When Vin takes over a kandra, it lasts for a few seconds; when she takes over a koloss, it lasts indefinitely. Saying that four spikes will always equal the same amount of flaw is like saying Marsh can burn a gram of bronze in an hour, so Ham should be able to burn a gram of pewter in an hour. We know that's not the case; metals have different burn rates.

[Yata he/him]

Eh... I hesitate to say that we know all spikes are equal. And keep in mind, koloss were once human, and kandra were most recently mistwraiths. When Vin takes over a kandra, it lasts for a few seconds; when she takes over a koloss, it lasts indefinitely. Saying that four spikes will always equal the same amount of flaw is like saying Marsh can burn a gram of bronze in an hour, so Ham should be able to burn a gram of pewter in an hour. We know that's not the case; metals have different burn rates.

Sure but controlling a Kandra is less easy than controll a Koloss, i think is just a "number of spikes". But could be different of course

 

Just rememeber that Mistwrath are actually just "Humans-with-Cognitive-Aspect-limitated".

[natc]

They're not though. It's a completely different species. IIRC that actually contributed to why the human-attribute spikes made them more human instead of less.

[Yata he/him]

They're not though. It's a completely different species. IIRC that actually contributed to why the human-attribute spikes made them more human instead of less.

I say realmaticaly.

They are Feruchemist with limitated Cognitive Aspect, they have the Human Investiture but block on the Cognitive Realm that stop them to be Sensient.

 

Maybe the miss of a really true form could be explained by their lack of Mental Image of self.