Question for Help about "forms"

[Meg]

Hey there,

 

please bear with me, I need your help, once again. This time it's about some general confusions of mine but -- surely -- related to BS's work.

 

There are some terms which confuse me.

 

One of those is „forms“ because it hasn't one unique definition/meaning.

 

Lurking through some interviews I found this one.

 

And because I didn't know about Plato's „forms“ I tried to learn a bit about it. If I understand it right, Plato's „forms“ (which in the German wikipedia are called „Ideen“ (ideas)) might be called „notions“ (for philosophy-dummies like me). (Those „notions“ would be opposed to the physical experiene of something … I mean: I have a notion of what a horse is. The physical experience would be touching a horse. I think it's a bad description, but abstract thinking isn't really my thing. I'm more the one who says: „What I see, hear, feel, smell, exists.“ )

Could I go with this definition?

 

The second mentioning of „forms“ is related to the „forms of Aons“(1), „the forms of surgebinding“(2) or the „forms of the Parshendi“(3).

 

(1) and (3) seem to be used for shapes (the lines that define which Aon is drawn and the different „states“ of the Parshendi).

And (2) I would more read as the „kind of“, „way of“ or „sort of“ surgebinding.

Are my "definitions" correct?

I'd appreciate if you could help me a bit with this (with both, my „translations“ and my trying to understand Plato). I'd too appreciate if there would not be mockery about my "flaws".

 

Thanks in advance.

 

PS: Yes, I drafted this posting off-line so the "..." are not all correct, but I'll keep it.

[Morsk he/him]

Plato's forms are unlike anything else. "Form" is translated from ancient Greek, and even in the original language Plato was using it as technical jargon, not as a normal word. I don't feel up to explaining Plato, but I'll try. You say you have a notion of a horse. Plato would say that the notion of a horse isn't only in your mind, that it exists in a higher dimension, and you've simply become aware of it. And that all horses in the universe are connected to this notion, and are imperfect copies of it. Plato would probably argue about "circles" or "justice" instead of a horse, but he thought there were forms for everything.

I agree that with Aons and Parshendi, "form" means "shape".

Do you have a quote that mentions "forms of Surgebinding"? I'd probably go with "type" for a synonym, but I can't think of an example.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Thanks for explaining that so well, Morsk.

I must apologize, Meg, for any confusion you may be feeling. This is almost certainly my fault, since I'm the main crazy guy who talks about "Forms" all the time. It's my own terminology, and Brandon will probably start calling them "ideals" or "archetypes" or something else altogether when he gets around to discussing it.

-Though you might have run across the word in Isomere's post, come to think of it... So that one wouldn't be my fault!

In Cosmere terms, I have a set of theories discussing the (possible, though I think nigh necessary) existence and nature of these "Forms"—Spiritual and perhaps even Cognitive ideals—as well as how they interact with the magic systems. This one is the most simple/comprehensive, if you'd care for a closer look.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Meg]

Plato's forms are unlike anything else. "Form" is translated from ancient Greek, and even in the original language Plato was using it as technical jargon, not as a normal word. I don't feel up to explaining Plato, but I'll try. You say you have a notion of a horse. Plato would say that the notion of a horse isn't only in your mind, that it exists in a higher dimension, and you've simply become aware of it. And that all horses in the universe are connected to this notion, and are imperfect copies of it. Plato would probably argue about "circles" or "justice" instead of a horse, but he thought there were forms for everything.

I agree that with Aons and Parshendi, "form" means "shape".

Do you have a quote that mentions "forms of Surgebinding"? I'd probably go with "type" for a synonym, but I can't think of an example.

 

Thanks a lot Morsk, I think it's more clarified for me now. 

 

The "forms of Surgebinding" come from this quote (the emphasized part): 

 

 

StormAtlas

I finally got to ask a question about the Stormlight Archive that Windrunner17 and Chaos helped me with which was: "Why Can Kaladin Surgebind with any gem type but Jasnah and Shallan need specific types?"

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of that will be explained as the series comes along. It is really the difference between Soulcasting and the other forms of Surgebinding. It's more a quirk of Soulcasting than it is something that is different about about Kaladin. So you've kind of got it reversed a little bit though; Soulcasting has this additional restriction that the other ones don't.

source

 

 

 

 

Thanks for explaining that so well, Morsk.

I must apologize, Meg, for any confusion you may be feeling. This is almost certainly my fault, since I'm the main crazy guy who talks about "Forms" all the time. It's my own terminology, and Brandon will probably start calling them "ideals" or "archetypes" or something else altogether when he gets around to discussing it.

-Though you might have run across the word in Isomere's post, come to think of it... So that one wouldn't be my fault!

In Cosmere terms, I have a set of theories discussing the (possible, though I think nigh necessary) existence and nature of these "Forms"—Spiritual and perhaps even Cognitive ideals—as well as how they interact with the magic systems. This one is the most simple/comprehensive, if you'd care for a closer look.

 

Ah, Kurki, it's not your fault so there is no need for apologizing . At least not only yours as you see in my examples (which are not yours). 

I have read your simplified-forms-thread but it didn't help me, I'm sorry. I will reread it now, with Morsk's explanations as background, and hopefully I will understand more. 

[Morsk he/him]

It is really the difference between Soulcasting and the other forms of Surgebinding.

Ok, I agree that is different from the "forms" of Aons and Parshendi. It's not about shape. I think "type" works.

 

I tried looking in a dictionary, but it didn't help me much There are so many meanings of "form" I never thought of before. Also I don't think dictionary writers consider Pokemon or werewolves "changing forms" when they write their entries, but that's what Parshendi are doing...

Edited October 14, 2013 by Morsk

[Argent he/him]

Versions works for me. Though finding a synonym that means exactly the same is probably the definition of futile effort.

[Meg]

Ok, I agree that is different from the "forms" of Aons and Parshendi. It's not about shape. I think "type" works.

 

Thanks again

 

I tried looking in a dictionary, but it didn't help me much There are so many meanings of "form" I never thought of before. Also I don't think dictionary writers consider Pokemon or werewolves "changing forms" when they write their entries, but that's what Parshendi are doing...

 

That's exactly what happens to me if I try to look up such words (either in dictionaries or for example in wikipedia). Each "solution" brings ten new questions. 

 

@ Ardent: Versions is a good possibility, too. Thanks.