Szeth's obedience - something more to it?

[Smidge]

I was wondering if we've been taking for granted how ridiculously obedient Szeth is. It seems hard to believe that level of complete obedience would be followed by all the Shin Truthless... Sure they might be very obedient, but to the point where they'd weep while following orders to kill innocents?

 

We know something different than a nahel bond is going on with Szeth to give him his Windrunner powers. Via the nahel bond like in Kaladin's case, people attract spren via some 'honourable' quality. Could what's giving Szeth his windrunning powers (special shardblade or otherwise) do the reverse and gift/bind/influence him to some 'honourable' quality?

 

Then again, maybe that's not likely as it could take away from his characterization, but I thought the idea was worth throwing out there.

[makromag he/him]

The main reason I, personally, believe that Szeth is only bound by honor is the way he contemplates killing Taravangian in the hospital. It seems to be a decision driven more by religion and morality than magic.

[cem he/him]

Or I could kill him, Szeth thought. I could stop this.

He nearly did it. But honor prevailed, for the moment.

I agree. It definitely looks like he has a choice.

[Natans he/him]

Maybe we're looking by the wrong angle. Maybe Szeth's blade, (that many think is the Jezrien's Honor Blade) is what make him be honorable.

 

I allways thought strange the Shin give a shardblade as a punishiment, so maybe is the bond with the sword that make him be "honorable".

 

Think about, it's said that that anyone could take a Honorblade, and the heralds discarded theirs blades in the moment that them deserted.

 

The honorblades are likely a heavy investeded objects, so maybe each blade bond the user to the ideal that them represent.

 

Jezrien ideal is honor, so maybe Szeth is honor bonded to do was he do because he carry the "Honor ideal"  honorblade.

[Oudeis he/him]

Interesting... I officially believe this theory. If y'all recall, I think it happened in Szeth's first interlude (I'll look it up if anyone doubts me) he mentioned that the terms of his punishment are to obey whoever holds the stone, with two exceptions: He cannot take his own life, and he cannot give up the Blade. This is something that was written into his very oath itself. The Blade isn't some incidental thing he has apart from his oath, it itself is tied to his punishment. I would not be surprised at all if I were to learn that his Blade, which I think is Jezrien's Honorblade, not only grants him the powers of the Order associated with Jezrien, but also binds him to Jezrien's primary trait of honor.

 

I don't think this contradicts the quote above about how he CAN choose to break his oath. The honor binding, in my opinion, is not absolute. It gives him a powerful urge to obey the oath, but it isn't utter domination of his will. As a reflection, Kaladin, despite being honorable enough to attract Syl, still does sometimes lie, or act in anger, or sometimes do things for selfish reasons.You do not need to be perfect to be honorable, just as the Blade Szeth carries compells him to honor, but doesn't ensure it.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

but also binds him to Jezrien's primary trait of honor.

 

Umm... I don't follow.  Aren't Jezrien's primary traits Leading/Protecting?  How is Szeth exhibiting those?

[Morsk he/him]

Umm... I don't follow.  Aren't Jezrien's primary traits Leading/Protecting?  How is Szeth exhibiting those?

Szeth pretty much has them backwards. Killing world leaders is the opposite of Leading/Protecting. In another thread, Miyabi noticed that Szeth's status as a slave is the opposite of Jezrien's as a king.

So I agree Szeth doesn't have the Windrunner traits. But maybe he has them so completely backwards that it's a sign of something else.

[hoser he/him]

Szeth makes no sense to me.  He chose to do something to earn the Truthless punishment.  Presumably a great sacrifice for something he believed in and a betrayal of Stone Shamanism.  He seems to accept the punishment, which is fundamentally unenforcable and against some of his most sacred principles.  His stated motivation is that by accepting the punishment his spirit will go back to the stone rather than being annihilated.  He states that his honor depends on accepting the terms of his punishment at the end with Taravangian. 

• Accepting an insane punishment that causes him to murder people wantonly just so his spirit will persist seems like the very height of dishonorable selfishness. 
• If he accepts Stone Shamanism, why did he feel compelled to betray it?
• If he doesn't accept it , then why would he believe that his adherence will affect the persistence of his spirit and accept the penalty?
• With WoB that he had occupied a respected place in Shin society, he is too good at too many forms of fighting.  I can imagine some training after he is provided with the Shardblade as part of his punishment, but that doesn't explain his skill. 
• He doesn't want to be associated with his father, but doesn't mind being associated with his grandfather.  He has motivations, training and beliefs that are at odds with Stone Shamanism.  Where did they come from?  An association with his grandfather?

I am guessing that Brandon is trying to explore the nature of honor.  Mr. T, Szeth and Kaladin are all exemplars for different interpretations.  A far too superficial initial guess would be that Szeth is too rulebound, Mr. T is too ends-justify-means and Kaladin is closer to a desirable middle. 

[Honor]

Hmm, I've pondered about Szeth's obedience.  It seems at times that he really does hate killing people as evidenced by his weeping etc, but it seems he still has a choice as evidenced by his desire to kill Taravangian.  The Shin don't seem the malicious or evil type from the other stuff we know about them; so I don't quite understand why they would unleash someone with his abilities to be put in a position to kill people right and left...there is something more to his punishment I can't lay my fingers on yet and does seem contingent on his blade.

[Natans he/him]

Umm... I don't follow.  Aren't Jezrien's primary traits Leading/Protecting?  How is Szeth exhibiting those?

 

Silly me, I confuded the atributes with the spreen associated sorry =)

 

Tks for the correction =)

Edited October 13, 2013 by Natans

[Gloom he/him]

I believe that Szeth is a very complicated individual being used in a very complicated set of circumstances. Being bound to an Oathstone may be a means of preventing him from being bound to a spren. Being given the particular blade he carries was also no accident. I'm fairly confident that he was given the blade because he began showing signs of not only being a surge binder, but because he was showing signs of becoming a Wind Runner in particular. The type of individual who would become a Wind Runner is also the type of person who would take their oaths, and their honor very seriously. I believe that it is altogether possible that the people who arranged for Szeth to receive the blade were also involved in ensuring the right people knew about him and what he carried. Taravangian is very well informed, not only about who Szeth is, but of what he carries.

 

"You have done your work well," the king said, still not facing him."Leaders dead, lives lost. Panic and chaos. Was this your destiny? Do you wonder? Given that monstrosity of a Shardblade by your people, cast out and absolved of any sin your masters might require of you?"

 

I'm sure that Taravangian has seen Shardblades before, and has even employed those who carry them from time to time. Why is Szeth blade monsterous? Why was he given a Shardblade at all? There are too many questions and not nearly enough information to answer them. Is it an Honorblade as many speculate? If so is it possible that the Blade Dalinar gave away is also an Honorblade?

[Natans he/him]

I believe that Szeth is a very complicated individual being used in a very complicated set of circumstances. Being bound to an Oathstone may be a means of preventing him from being bound to a spren. Being given the particular blade he carries was also no accident. I'm fairly confident that he was given the blade because he began showing signs of not only being a surge binder, but because he was showing signs of becoming a Wind Runner in particular. The type of individual who would become a Wind Runner is also the type of person who would take their oaths, and their honor very seriously. I believe that it is altogether possible that the people who arranged for Szeth to receive the blade were also involved in ensuring the right people knew about him and what he carried. Taravangian is very well informed, not only about who Szeth is, but of what he carries.

 

 

I'm sure that Taravangian has seen Shardblades before, and has even employed those who carry them from time to time. Why is Szeth blade monsterous? Why was he given a Shardblade at all? There are too many questions and not nearly enough information to answer them. Is it an Honorblade as many speculate? If so is it possible that the Blade Dalinar gave away is also an Honorblade?

 

 

I like this idea. One thing I'm sure, the blade is big part of the equation.

 

Another thought I had that I never was able to associate with any theory, is that in some part Szeth says that he can't hold stormlight perfectly that only a "voidbringer" could do so.

 

But the Shins have a very antogonic view of things, like when they consider walk in stone or use stomlight a sin.

 

So maybe, to the Shins, the "voidbringers" are in reality the Radiants. This would explain why to then a shardblale are a pronafy terrible thing, and Kaladin, in his "Level 2 Super Radiant Mode" apparently can hold stomlight many times better than Szeth, what make me believe that a full radiant could hold perfectly.

 

There goes more crazy thoughts =)