Helleran Davar Lives!

[I_am_NOT_fire]

Yep, just what I said. I think he's alive healthy and probably a Skybreaker. So first things first, how on earth I came to this conclusion. Well, there was this epic battle, and Szeth got resurected from the dead. So could Nin be collecting up pure little Skybreakers to keep the order going? Kinda hypocritical of him dontcha think? As we have no evidence to the contrary, I think the herald of justice has been a bit devious lately. Why do I think Helleran is a Skybreaker? Well thanks to Mraize and Mr T, I can be absolutely pretty sure that he's a Skybreaker. What on earth is up with Kaladin and killing skybreakers? That can wait. So my theory is that Helleran Lay on the battle field with his life leaking away while he was robbed of his shardplate. By the time that his shardblade appeared and he was well and truly dead, the armorers took it and went to give it to Amaram. (Bastard). Then Nin came along with his restoration fabrial and revived Helleran who then may or may not have become a Skybreaker.

Wait, there's more.

So there's been talk of a Kandra worldhopper, oh great. Yeah, as if an ordinary worldhopper wasn't hard enough to find. And so if Helleran Davar returns from the dead could it just be our mysterious worldhopping blobbish friend making an apoearance? Right, I'm done with being confuzing for the moment. Any questions?

[Yata he/him]

All It is possible, but a lot unlikely. I explain myself.

 

First of all, Helleran unlikely was a KH.

If Helleran was a KH, he couldn't use easy a Dead-Spren-Shardblade, but we all saw his Shardblade spawn uppon his dead.

If he was using his own spren as Blade, uppon his death the spren would be painfull but alive and no a dead-Shardblade.

His plate didn't glow (like we see in the Vision) but this could be mean that he wasn't using his surgebinder's powers(Possible).
Therefore if he was a Skybreaker, he must broke his oaths before of the fight with Kaladin.

 

Second, the resurrection.

Nin stated that he couldn't Regrown Szeth if more time was passed after his death, the same thinks we could see with Lift and the new Azir's ruler.

It's matter of seconds probably. And how could be possible to resurrect a Shardbearer just after a fight ? He had take a lot of time only to remove the Shardplate to the body and i really doubt that they lost the body easly. If I'm not wrong they They sought to identify, from his looks (but Kaladin did a good job) and probably searching proof in his cloths.

[I_am_NOT_fire]

So on your first point, when do we ever get Helleran in the dark? It could have been glowing. Secondly, well I thought on this a bit. I don't think that Helleran's shardblade appears immediately, please correct me if I'm wrong. Also with Szeth he was killed by a shardblade. (I wouldn't be surprised if it takes ten seconds to become completely dead after the heart has stopped. Helleran was killed by Kaladin's knife, so who knows how long it took for him to die completely. Yes, I see that this theory is flawed, but there is a larger implication. Nin was probably recruiting Skybreakers. And how on roshar did he get hold of nightblood?

[Yata he/him]

So on your first point, when do we ever get Helleran in the dark? It could have been glowing. Secondly, well I thought on this a bit. I don't think that Helleran's shardblade appears immediately, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The matter of glowing or not is quite meaningless because He told us nothing for sure. He could be a surgebinders and not use the stormlight anyway to hide his powers (and in my previous post also I don't count the "not-glow" as a proof.

If Helleran was a full of stormlight the Knife will hurt him but He will probably heal (remember that in the healing the Physical Status of the body is quite meaningless) and the Plate would Glow very very much (from the Visions) with Glyphs,ecc....

But all the previous part could be explained simply with "He wasn't using the stormlight.

The problem is the Blade spawn after his death, this is a proof of a "not KR".

[Oudeis he/him]

Also, the body does not mysteriously disappear. Amaram's men take it and examine it; that's how they can report to him that he was likely from Jah Keved.

 

He's dead for way too long for the Regrowth fabrial to have brought him back. If Szeth was dead longer than seconds, it wasn't longer than minutes.

[Yata he/him]

Also, the body does not mysteriously disappear. Amaram's men take it and examine it; that's how they can report to him that he was likely from Jah Keved.

 

He's dead for way too long for the Regrowth fabrial to have brought him back. If Szeth was dead longer than seconds, it wasn't longer than minutes.

Exactly, the only way for Helleran to be alive that come to my mind. It's that the Shardbearer in the flashback was just a red haired guy who Helleran passed his Shardblade.

[Guest]

So on your first point, when do we ever get Helleran in the dark? It could have been glowing. Secondly, well I thought on this a bit. I don't think that Helleran's shardblade appears immediately, please correct me if I'm wrong. Also with Szeth he was killed by a shardblade. (I wouldn't be surprised if it takes ten seconds to become completely dead after the heart has stopped. Helleran was killed by Kaladin's knife, so who knows how long it took for him to die completely. Yes, I see that this theory is flawed, but there is a larger implication. Nin was probably recruiting Skybreakers. And how on roshar did he get hold of nightblood?

 

Helaran's Blade had a gem into the pommel as per all dead-Blade. Live Blades do not have those as they were placed there after the Recreance to help the new Shardbearer bound their Blades. It is said one tried to put a gem there to embellish his Blade and the result was he managed to bound it.

 

His Blade also appeared at his side, which is another proof. 

 

As for how long the brain can remain alive after the heart stops beating: the answer is not long. If the body is immersed into a very cold environment, then several minutes is possible, even an hour. There always are amazing survival stories of people who drowned in ice cold water and were able to be revived. If not, a few seconds to a few minutes is what you get. The second the heart stops pumping blood, the brain starts to drain all oxygen it can to maintain its activity usually ending up in irrevocably damaging itself. Since Helaran was not stuck in ice or in cold water, it is unlikely his brain remained active for more than a few minutes, especially with a knife sticking into it. Revival is improbable at best.

[Corax]

I was thinking something along similar lines, except that my thought that Helleran never died in the first place, rather someone with his blade and plate died. If the Ghostbloods took the Shards back and gave them to someone else (necessitating someone else bonding the blade), it could have been any number of people that died at Kaladin’s hand.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Corax

[Yata he/him]

I was thinking something along similar lines, except that my thought that Helleran never died in the first place, rather someone with his blade and plate died. If the Ghostbloods took the Shards back and gave them to someone else (necessitating someone else bonding the blade), it could have been any number of people that died at Kaladin’s hand.

This indeed it's possible, there is just the red hair detail, but There are people with red hair on roshar

[Guest]

This indeed it's possible, there is just the red hair detail, but There are people with red hair on roshar

 

Whereas it is not technically impossible, it would be anti-climatic. We have had enough of dead characters suddenly not being dead. 

[Yata he/him]

Whereas it is not technically impossible, it would be anti-climatic. We have had enough of dead characters suddenly not being dead. 

this is quite sure.

To me Brandon had already used a lot (if not all) the Narrative-Resurrection-Point with Szeth and our favorite Elsecaller.

[Corax]

Whereas it is not technically impossible, it would be anti-climatic. We have had enough of dead characters suddenly not being dead.

Oh, I agree. And we know that Brandon wants to avoid revolving-door death. I can't recall off the top of my head how much we were told about the Shardbearer who died. Thanks for pointing out that we know he was a redhead (but as was said, it's a fairly common Veden trait.)

[Guest]

this is quite sure.

To me Brandon had already used a lot (if not all) the Narrative-Resurrection-Point with Szeth and our favorite Elsecaller.

 

I also fail to see what Helaran suddenly being alive would bring to the story... Him being dead serves the narrative better as he remains a sore point for Shallan as well as a potential source of conflict with Kaladin once the truth is known. 

 

Overdoing the resurrecting story line is dangerous, though I do think it is possible to see it happening again, but in a different way. For instance, I think it likely to have our Truthwatcher figure out how to save someone's dear life with regrowth, but it would not be the same as Jasnah being left for dead for 1000 pages.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Unless Helaran becomes the first Skybreaker Radiant? It could be a red herring after all. We're only given information stating that he was from Jah Keved and had red hair (which can be typical of those of Veden descent) + we see he has the Shardblade that Helaran is shown threatening Lin Davar with. *note we never see Helaran acquire Shardplate but this could have been any time between leaving Jah Keved and Kaladin killing the shardbearer*. The only we reason we think they are one and the same is because of the way the above facts and point of views in book are presented, which, to be fair, is a logical conclusion to make. Shallan didn't exactly show a drawing of Helaran during their heart-to-heart in the chasm, nor can i remember if Kaladin actually remarks on seeing his appearance.

 

Perhaps someone should ask Brandon at a signing if the shardbearer Kaladin actually killed was Helaran?

Edited September 13, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Ari he/him]

Or we could assume that someone other than Sadeas is actually permanently dead.

 

If Helaran is alive, I really hope it's because he wasn't the person Kaladin killed in that battle, and that he faked his own death. I hope that Fabrial gets extremely limited use, as we skirted a bit close to death-being-meaningless in Words of Radiance for my liking.

[Yata he/him]

Or we could assume that someone other than Sadeas is actually permanently dead.

 

If Helaran is alive, I really hope it's because he wasn't the person Kaladin killed in that battle, and that he faked his own death. I hope that Fabrial gets extremely limited use, as we skirted a bit close to death-being-meaningless in Words of Radiance for my liking.

The Fabrial and the Surge have indeed a very small window of use.

 

We could quite think that any dead who doesn't revived onscreen is probably still dead.

[Ari he/him]

The Fabrial and the Surge have indeed a very small window of use.

 

We could quite think that any dead who doesn't revived onscreen is probably still dead.

 

Yeah, I'm fine with it being used in a nearby scene in the same book, if it's not used more than say, once every second book. It was the combination of that and Jasnah, where we had no active hints she was alive, that did it.

[DreamEternal]

Or we could assume Sadeas is not dead. I can see the bastard laughting as he picks up Odium after Rayse is killed by his own champion...

Of course, the logical conclusion would for Rayse to come back too.

"All according to the plan." Gavilar said, reclining on his throne as he watched the world burn from the depths of the Expanse of the Broken Sky. Yes, it was good to be the God Beyond.

"Now, lets bring forward step two: Adonalsium.".

Edited September 19, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Guest]

 

Or we could assume Sadeas is not dead. 

 

 

Nah. He is dead, dead. That was confirmed a long time ago.

[DreamEternal]

Nah. He is dead, dead. That was confirmed a long time ago.

Of course, one could say Szeth was also dead... for a while .

EDIT: In case anyone doens't notice, I was joking in my last post.

Edited September 19, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Guest]

Of course, one could say Szeth was also dead... for a while .

 

Except Brandon himself told us Sadeas was truly dead dead. 

[Oudeis he/him]

Yeah, I'm fine with it being used in a nearby scene in the same book, if it's not used more than say, once every second book. It was the combination of that and Jasnah, where we had no active hints she was alive, that did it.

You don't think it was hinted that she was alive? Her body mysteriously disappeared, Stormlight heals, and she has the Transportation Surge.

[Guest]

You don't think it was hinted that she was alive? Her body mysteriously disappeared, Stormlight heals, and she has the Transportation Surge.

 

Call me deaf, but I did not pick up on the cues. I truly thought she was dead. 

[Ari he/him]

You don't think it was hinted that she was alive? Her body mysteriously disappeared, Stormlight heals, and she has the Transportation Surge.

 

I may have read a little lightly in that scene, but all I remember about it was Shallan seeing Jasnah's body and being super upset. I don't remember any mysterious disappearance. I'll have to check.

[Oudeis he/him]

Shallan sees Jasnah stabbed and very, very dead, then sends her Lightwoven double up top to try and distract the mutineers. While they're away, she runs into Jasnah's room to find the spheres and use their power. On that way, she expects to stumble across Jasnah's body, which had been left in the doorway... but it's just plain gone. She wonders if they took the body or was it just rocked by the motions of the boat somewhere she can't see in the dark, but it was a huge red-flag for me.

 

The others were smaller clues, but from this one, I was more-or-less positive she wasn't dead.