Shipping Kaladin

[Hoid Is Dead]

 

Are yoou sure about that? because i don't remember in all of wor tat a lighteye woman was introduced and hadn't had a relation with adolin. adolin literally dated alll eligible women in the camp. 

 

Yes I am sure that Adolin, and I'm speaking in general (lower status vice versa). 

 

 

 

 

If you have read my previous replies in this thread, I have already said that a romantic relationship would be impossible, because Syl is insubstantial. I have said that I would prefer them to be, but it is impossible. Knowing that fact, I haven't yet cosidered them having physical intimacy. 

 

Regarding of Syl being the personification of Kaladin's honor, it is true, but also, Syl is not born because Kaladin is honorable, she is 'alive' long before Kaladin, I remember that she looked for him, with the help of her cousins/windsprens, and that sprens in the cognitive realm have their own thoughts. 

 

As for Adolin and Kaladin's would-be partner would overlap, I think you are mistaken, Roshar is a vast world, I honestly believe that Adolin did not courted them all. 

 

What I really wanted to say is dating Adolin's Ex would be awkward.

 

[maxal]

 

By my own time reckoning, Adolin and Shallan cannot have dated for much longer than a month at the end of WoR, so I agree their relationship would by our standards still be in it infancy. I will point out that it is remarked several times in the book by both Dalinar and Adolin that he appears more fond of Shallan than his previous partners. Adolin's admission to Kaladin "I'd really like to keep this one" and Dalinar's observation that Adolin seemed very fond of Shallan indicate to me that Adolin is growing relatively committed to the relationship. In the past, his first instinct when girls have grown distant is to buy them a present, try to compose a poem or go on a walk with them. Adolin appears genuinely confused about how to make sure that his relationship with Shallan last. This might seem contrary to his obvious reluctance to be physically forward with Shallan, but at their last kiss in the book, Adolin apparently gets quite into it. My money, in regards to Adolin's feelings, would be that he is crushing heavily on Shallan.

 

I believe it is even less than a month... I do not have the timeline, but it was rather short. Their relationship, by any standard, is rather new. Even Adolin admits as well when he candidly tells Kaladin he has no idea who to keep a woman and while things may seem as if they are working, he half-heartily expect them to turn sour, because they always do and he never knows why.

 

I agree Adolin truly wants to commit to this relationship. He certainly seems more fond of Shallan than Danlan as illustrated by "the stupid grin" on his face he arbors during the menagerie date. At the time, Kaladin was worried Shallan may be an assassin until he realized she was no such thing as the only item she truly seems to be after was his dignity... Clearly, Adolin behaves like a love struck puppy the whole time and Kaladin is slightly annoyed/disgust by it.

 

As for Adolin being confused as to how to conduct himself in a relationship, I would say he is suffering form his own fame. He is young, handsome, rich and heir of a powerful house: no doubt he was seen as a very good catch by any Highprince having a daughter in the right age frame. Surely those were the first ones he dated/courted prompt by their fathers to make an alliance. However, upon seeing Dalinar not being keen on marrying his son for political advantages, worst upon seeing him openly state the boy would chose his future wife, all girls of admissible rank literally jumped on him. Just as all duelists secretly hoped to be he one to take Adolin Kholin down, I wager all girls secretly hoped to be the one to tie the knot around his pretty neck. Hence started the parade of eligible girls all trying to catch the attention of a handsome prince seeking for his one true love, as per his father's instructions. We have quotes, in WoK, on how girls just call on Adolin or how many did not care if he was already seeing someone, they still flirted with him. All in all, I think he ended up so confused, surrounded by girls, not knowing when to avert his eyes, not being able to resist advances and thus accumulating mistakes over mistakes, he slowly went from popular to shunned. The girls he did not stray away by staring too intently at another or by double-booking a dinner invitation (really Adolin?), he steered away by not being what they expected. On the exterior, he may be the proper prince, but on the interior, he is just not your average Alethi: he is just nice, caring, sensitive and clearly does not enjoy the traditional Alethi woman who loves to hear herself talk... His feminine role model was his mother, who was a foreigner... He also does not readily open-up to people, keeping his outside persona going on, the one who always plays the same cassette, tells the same stories over and over again to the point where girls ended finding him boring as his true qualities only shines to those who bother to try to know him.

 

Hence, you have the recipe for a very confused young man, when it comes to relationship, who despite his good-will is completely clueless as to how you built up a lasting union, be it love or friendship.

 

As for his reluctance, I did not read it as hesitation towards Shallan, but towards intimacy. It is hinted Shallan is swinging him around the first base quite rapidly: he is not used to that, worst he has no self-confidence when it comes to it. His first reaction is thus to step back, but to melt into it right after.

 

As for him crushing, needless to say I'll share your money bag because I think the same. He is crushing on her, hard. He'll get hurt. That is inevitable.

 

On the sidelines, did Adolin truly say he would try to write poetry to win over a girl? Because seriously if Adolin starts to compose poetry, I really want to read it... Somehow, I am convinced he'd be horrible at it......     

 

 

I agree that no woman or man should be labeled a 'left-over'. The capacity to become involved in romantic relationships doesn't decrease as you date more people, and the more vulgar meaning of the phrase(used up) can't even be applied to any of Adolin's previous partners, considering how inexperienced he obviously is. No man or woman should be too 'pure' or 'impure' to date somebody else, and I will point out that neither Adolin nor Kaladin are such fantastic guys that Jenet couldn't hope to become involved with either (Adolin could be considered unintelligent, while Kaladin by virtue of his horrible mood 90% of the time probably isn't a great guy to be around).

 

It should be noted, however, that Vorin society places men and women in very distinct roles, and considering the rank differences between Adolin and Jenet (we don't know her dahn, but can assume it to be below Adolin's, else she wouldn't be working at a stables), I wouldn't be surprised if the role of finding and choosing a spouse fell primarily on men, especially men of higher dahn, as Adolin obviously is in both Shallan's and Jenet's case.

 

On a side note, I quite like the idea of Jenet and Kaladin...she's described as forward, uncomplicated, uncaring for eye colour and she wears a glove (like Kaladin's mother - he always considered gloves more practical). For any ship to sail on this though, we desperately need a lot more character development on Jenet.

 

Well, Adolin sure thought Jenet was worth being involved with at some point in time... Based on Dalinar's reaction to Shallan's rank and impoverish state, I wager Jenet is at least of the 4th dahn. She did state "horses" were not part of the "Feminine Arts" book which left her room to care for them. It is not said lighteyes can't wear gloves: they can, but it is frown upon, a fact Jenet clearly does not care about.

 

Shallan is hinted to technically be too low in rank to call on Adolin: only her connection to Jasnah made her a possible candidate. Without it however, Dalinar was wary to let her court his son: he probably felt she may be a opportunist gold digger, which she actually was.

 

 

What I really wanted to say is dating Adolin's Ex would be awkward.

 

 

If dating Adolin's ex is awkward, then just who can date Jenet?

Edited September 11, 2015 by maxal

[Hoid Is Dead]

If dating Adolin's ex is awkward, then just who can date Jenet?

 

What I am saying is, it would be awkward for Kaladin. Just imagine dating your friend's ex. Well it will be awkward for me, but if it not with you, then it is not. Simply as is, different opinions man.

 

Adolin is now confiding with Kaladin right? So is he regarded as friend?

 

Edit:

Jenet can date anyone, just not Kaladin :PPP

Edited September 11, 2015 by Hoid Is Dead

[Cemci]

 

As for Adolin and Kaladin's would-be partner would overlap, I think you are mistaken, Roshar is a vast world, I honestly believe that Adolin did not courted them all. 

 

What I really wanted to say is dating Adolin's Ex would be awkward.

 

We're not discussing the possibility of Kaladin finding a some yet unknown partner in Emul or somewhere entirely different. The available women in relative geographic proximity to the warcamps (or now Urithiru) that are of sufficient social standing (around 4th or 5th dahn I would expect, from maxal's estimate about Jenet's dahn) to be able to court Kaladin have all been courted by Adolin previously. 

 

And I'm sure it's obvious by now that almost nobody else believes dating somebody else's ex would be awkward. In fact, Kaladin probably doesn't consider it awkward, since he displays some romantic interest in Shallan. Under any circumstance where Kaladin and Shallan dated, she would be, as you put it, 'Adolin's left-overs', and it doesn't bother Kaladin. Shallan was only bothered by the fact that Adolin had dated virtually everybody else, and mildly annoyed that his eyes wandered extensively during their first date. Dalinar wasn't bothered by Navani being previously married, only by dishonouring the memory of his brother.

 

Hence, you have the recipe for a very confused young man, when it comes to relationship, who despite his good-will is completely clueless as to how you built up a lasting union, be it love or friendship.

 

On the sidelines, did Adolin truly say he would try to write poetry to win over a girl? Because seriously if Adolin starts to compose poetry, I really want to read it... Somehow, I am convinced he'd be horrible at it......        

 

I would bet that Dalinar's insistence Adolin be seen as unavailable also has something to do with his helplessness regarding women. How long did it take Danlan to start calling on Adolin? One day? He's the single most available bachelor of available bachelors (prior to meeting Shallan). That, and the potential political threat. Danlan did turn out to be affiliated with Graves, who was behind multiple assassination attempts.

 

And I believe it was Malasha or Janala? One of his courtships during the book series (I can't remember if it was WoK or WoR, and it's 2 am, so I'm not going to check) was fond of epic poems, so to make up for some slight, Adolin at some point considers phrasing his apology in the form of a poem xD

 

 

It is not said lighteyes can't wear gloves: they can, but it is frown upon, a fact Jenet clearly does not care about.

 

Shallan reacts shocked when in WoR her illusion dissipates and she wears Veil's glove. You're correct in that it's frowned upon, but depending on the woman, it could be a relatively minor breach of etiquette. It is said that Shallan as a lighteyes of medium rank would be expected to show more modesty than a glove.

Also, Jenet's disregard to wearing a long sleeve is exactly why she and Kaladin would fit! Kaladin barely understands lighteyed conventions, he shows obvious disdain for Adolin's and Shallan's mannerisms. I'm getting on this ship

[maxal]

 

What I am saying is, it would be awkward for Kaladin. Just imagine dating your friend's ex. Well it will be awkward for me, but if it not with you, then it is not. Simply as is, different opinions man.

 

Adolin is now confiding with Kaladin right? So is he regarded as friend?

 

Edit:

Jenet can date anyone, just not Kaladin :PPP

 

I think they still have a way to go before calling each other friends... Adolin has virtually no friends except his brother, but it is clear he needed someone to talk to. He has no one and I believes he ends up seeing Kaladin as none threatening which is why he readily opens up to him. 

 

 

I would bet that Dalinar's insistence Adolin be seen as unavailable also has something to do with his helplessness regarding women. How long did it take Danlan to start calling on Adolin? One day? He's the single most available bachelor of available bachelors (prior to meeting Shallan). That, and the potential political threat. Danlan did turn out to be affiliated with Graves, who was behind multiple assassination attempts.

 

And I believe it was Malasha or Janala? One of his courtships during the book series (I can't remember if it was WoK or WoR, and it's 2 am, so I'm not going to check) was fond of epic poems, so to make up for some slight, Adolin at some point considers phrasing his apology in the form of a poem xD

 

I believe Danlan was the straw that broke the camel's back. Dalinar reflects, back in WoK, how she started calling on him three days after arriving in camp. His son reacts very positively to her advances only to abruptly break up with her in a rather public way. Whatever the reasons (the Kholins are not aware of her involvement with Graves), Dalinar came to the conclusion it had to stop. Adolin is literally being shoved around from one girl to another, not truly knowing what he is doing and most are out there to garner an advantage or another. Basically, he is a rug being tug from every direction in a war to gain political advantages, as illustrated by Ruthar's sudden interest in Shallan which she clearly identified as interest in the casual more than Jah Keved. He is barely aware of it. In that essence, Jasnah's offer came right on time, which explains the enthusiasm at which both Dalinar and Navani rushed on it.

 

I think it is Janala... The high nose snob who liked to listen to herself talk about herself... I wished Brandon had given us the poem      I mean Adolin composing poetry: this HAS to be EPIC     

 

 

Shallan reacts shocked when in WoR her illusion dissipates and she wears Veil's glove. You're correct in that it's frowned upon, but depending on the woman, it could be a relatively minor breach of etiquette. It is said that Shallan as a lighteyes of medium rank would be expected to show more modesty than a glove.

Also, Jenet's disregard to wearing a long sleeve is exactly why she and Kaladin would fit! Kaladin barely understands lighteyed conventions, he shows obvious disdain for Adolin's and Shallan's mannerisms. I'm getting on this ship

 

 

Navani wears a glove... Adolin is slightly offended by it, but it means lighteyes can actually wear glove. It is just badly viewed.

 

Well it is not a bad ship though I am still routing for Tarah to make an entrance.

Edited September 11, 2015 by maxal

[mirahound]

Aiyaiyai, what monster have I created? This is a forum about a series of books we all love. There's no need to get nasty if we have differing opinions. If you want to fight it out, please find somewhere else to do it.

Edited September 11, 2015 by mirahound

[Hoid Is Dead]

Nobody is fighting, I think. Well as you say yourself, it might be an explosive topic. 

[kaellok]

If you have read my previous replies in this thread, I have already said that a romantic relationship would be impossible, because Syl is insubstantial. I have said that I would prefer them to be, but it is impossible. Knowing that fact, I haven't yet cosidered them having physical intimacy.

I was trying to address this point in my original posted response as well, but due to being rushed from lunch and typing on my phone, it wasn't done as well as it could have been.

 

Basically, now that Kaladin has spoken the Third Oath of the Windrunners, we have seen a small bit of a very, very distinct change in Syl.  While before she was insubstantial to the point that carrying a leaf a few miles was likely a heroic journey on par of difficulty with Sam carrying Frodo into Mordor, now she is different--much more in the Physical Realm.  And her physical form is capable of doing more than simply slicing through living matter in the manner of a Shardblade, because as a Hammer she crushed bones.  This implies, to me, that she is at least as solid and physical as a hammer is; but really, there's no reason why she can only take the shape and feel of something super-sharp or super-hard.  It would, in fact, seem bizarre to me if she was unable to mimic one of the more common bipedal people on Roshar (like, humans.)

 

Whether she would want to or not, is a completely different question.  So is whether she has, or is capable of, romantic thoughts and feelings in the same way that humans are.  That, more than anything in my opinion, would be the biggest block to a romance being possible.  Kaladin and Syl already share an incredibly deep connection because of the Bond.  Even if she's not capable of the type of romantic feelings that humans get, I doubt that something less strong than that bond would lead to disappointing and unsatisfied pairings for any of the Radiants.  From my experience, a deep connection with someone else is far, far more important, meaningful, and desirable than anything else about them.  (That's why I'm scared that the Shallan/Adolin pairing won't work long-term, even though I really want it to; but it applies to Kaladin and others, too!)

[Hoid Is Dead]

I was trying to address this point in my original posted response as well, but due to being rushed from lunch and typing on my phone, it wasn't done as well as it could have been.

 

Basically, now that Kaladin has spoken the Third Oath of the Windrunners, we have seen a small bit of a very, very distinct change in Syl.  While before she was insubstantial to the point that carrying a leaf a few miles was likely a heroic journey on par of difficulty with Sam carrying Frodo into Mordor, now she is different--much more in the Physical Realm.  And her physical form is capable of doing more than simply slicing through living matter in the manner of a Shardblade, because as a Hammer she crushed bones.  This implies, to me, that she is at least as solid and physical as a hammer is; but really, there's no reason why she can only take the shape and feel of something super-sharp or super-hard.  It would, in fact, seem bizarre to me if she was unable to mimic one of the more common bipedal people on Roshar (like, humans.)

Based on the book, Spren copied how the honorblades are made. So I think atleast they can only copy 'weapons'.

[kaellok]

Based on the book, Spren copied how the honorblades are made. So I think atleast they can only copy 'weapons'.

But what, then, are weapons? To paraphrase George Carlin, what about a man with very large hands? Or a kickboxing expert? ☺

[Yata]

But what, then, are weapons? To paraphrase George Carlin, what about a man with very large hands? Or a kickboxing expert? ☺

Brandon in a WoB said that spren could copy not only Weapon.

[Zea mays]

Shipping discussions bring up disturbing (kinda stick-figure) images for me. I apologize in advance for this.

 

*lets self out*

[maxal]

Shipping discussions bring up disturbing (kinda stick-figure) images for me. I apologize in advance for this.

 

*lets self out*

 

           

 

 

Whether she would want to or not, is a completely different question.  So is whether she has, or is capable of, romantic thoughts and feelings in the same way that humans are.  That, more than anything in my opinion, would be the biggest block to a romance being possible.  Kaladin and Syl already share an incredibly deep connection because of the Bond.  Even if she's not capable of the type of romantic feelings that humans get, I doubt that something less strong than that bond would lead to disappointing and unsatisfied pairings for any of the Radiants.  From my experience, a deep connection with someone else is far, far more important, meaningful, and desirable than anything else about them.  (That's why I'm scared that the Shallan/Adolin pairing won't work long-term, even though I really want it to; but it applies to Kaladin and others, too!)

 

I'd like to comment on the bold part as I tend to disagree with you. All partners do not necessarily have (or need) a deep connection as per Kaladin/Syl. In fact, most unions cultivate their own private gardens. Most healthy unions are not as close to Kaladin and Syl, worst most would be horrified to consider the idea their partners may hear all of their thoughts... 

 

Now, they are, of course, unions who are very, very, very close, but most lasting ones I have seen tend to have their own things on the side of the things they do share (such as he has his hockey team while she has her knitting group, but they both enjoy hiking together, that kind of stuff). It is perfectly normal not to share everything with your spouse (well, I don't mean being unfaithful here, just not necessarily sharing ALL your thoughts). There are many happy unions I know whom are happy to spend some time apart, each on their respective business trip. I would hate it, but they are both very happy about it: it works for them.

 

All that to say, I sincerely do not believe having a deep connection with your spren prevents you from harvesting a romantic relationship with a human being. Quite the contrary. Humans relationship are built on trust. Spren to humans relationship are built on expectations. I do think our Radiants have much to gain to engage with romantic partners. I also doubt Radiants of old were all childless bachelors....