Szeth killing Taravangian

[Fenesko]

Hi, I was wondering for some time why Szeth did not kill Taravangian after he figured out Taravangian was responsible for creating the kill-list, but before receiving the order not to harm him.

I think he could have done it before the old man had a chance to react. He could have gotten ridden of Taravangian while not breaking any of his precious rules...

[DreamEternal]

Hi, I was wondering for some time why Szeth did not kill Taravangian after he figured out Taravangian was responsible for creating the kill-list, but before receiving the order not to harm him.

I think he could have done it before the old man had a chance to react. He could have gotten ridden of Taravangian while not breaking any of his precious rules...

You must understand a Truthless is not a some sort of comic genie that twists your wishes unless you word them carefully. He did what his master wanted him to do, not simply what he was told to do.

But what is more important, if he killed Taravangian there and then he wouldn't have learnt. He needed to know why he did what he did.

A truthless does not question his orders. A truthless only obeys. This was something that tortured Szeth almost as much as the killing itself. Szeth wanted meaning and purpose, he can't live in a world that makes no sense. That is why he refused to abandon his belief in Stone Shamanism, that is why he devoted himself to Nin so quickly. Because otherwise, if he was left in a world without order, he would lose himself even more, until there was nothing left.

Edited September 8, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Jondesu]

Didn't he know by that time that Taravangian held his Oathstone? He wasn't allowed by his rules to kill the person who held his Oathstone.

Even if he didn't, I believe the order was phrased so T would have needed to specifically acknowledge Szeth's message, and he hadn't yet, so Szeth's wasn't permitted to kill him yet.

jW

[DreamEternal]

Didn't he know by that time that Taravangian held his Oathstone? He wasn't allowed by his rules to kill the person who held his Oathstone.

Even if he didn't, I believe the order was phrased so T would have needed to specifically acknowledge Szeth's message, and he hadn't yet, so Szeth's wasn't permitted to kill him yet.

jW

Actualy, Taravangian ordered Szeth to not kill him after revealing his oathstone and explaining he ordered Szeth to kill those people to ensure estability. He said he probably didn't need to say that, so it is still unceirtain whatever he could do it or not.

But if he could that would be a stupid loophole, so I stand on my opinion that a truthless must follow what his master wants, not look for loopholes.

[Elena]

Just throwing this out here: what about Szeth killing Mr. T. with Nightblood now that he's no longer truthless? It's been foreshadowed a couple times now, both in Szeth's last WoK chapter and in Taravangian's WoR POV. Considering just how mad Szeth was at Dalinar for 'not dying quickly', he's bound to be furious at Mr. T. for everything he was ordered to do.

[Yata]

The fact are "could Szeth kill Mr. T ?" As Skybreaker he must obey to the laws. And if Mr. T remains in his kingdoms, could simply change the law (something like "A king can't be judge).

 

Yes I know that my "new law" is stupid, but now there isn't any better law in my mind to prevent his action to be "crime".

But Mr. T is a lot smarter tham me (somedays) then He find a better way .

[kaellok]

The fact are "could Szeth kill Mr. T ?" As Skybreaker he must obey to the laws. And if Mr. T remains in his kingdoms, could simply change the law (something like "A king can't be judge).

 

Yes I know that my "new law" is stupid, but now there isn't any better law in my mind to prevent his action to be "crime".

But Mr. T is a lot smarter tham me (somedays) then He find a better way .

Except that Szeth is not bound by the dictates of that thinking unless he chooses so. He obviously didn't care about the laws of other lands more than he cared about those of the Shin, and i think that will be more true now--not less.

@CognitivePulsePattern: i know we view Szeth very differently, but your explanation in first response was beautiful. I had never seen that need for understanding in him before, but it fits and helps explain a few of the issues i have with him.

[Jondesu]

Szeth doesn't have to be bound by the restrictions even if he joins the Skybreakers, unless he bonds a spren.  At this point he's not bonded to anything, so while he may bond with Nightblood in some way, I doubt there will be any limitations placed on him based on that.  He should absolutely be able (from that perspective) to assassinate Taravangian.  Whether he will do that will be up to the whims of Brandon, but nothing in-story should prevent him specifically.

 

jW

[Moogle]

I doubt Szeth would kill Taravangian at this point. He'd be causing more chaos and bloodshed. Doesn't seem like a very Szeth thing to do willingly - he's never, as far as I can tell, even expressed a desire for vengeance against the Stone Shamans. Nin just seems to think he should.

 

Maybe at the end of WoK he would have, but after WoR I don't think so. PTSD and all that.

 

I admit I'm not very confident on this, though.

[DreamEternal]

Szeth doesn't have to be bound by the restrictions even if he joins the Skybreakers, unless he bonds a spren. At this point he's not bonded to anything, so while he may bond with Nightblood in some way, I doubt there will be any limitations placed on him based on that. He should absolutely be able (from that perspective) to assassinate Taravangian. Whether he will do that will be up to the whims of Brandon, but nothing in-story should prevent him specifically.

jW

Nothing but Nin's possible disaproval.

Remember, Szeth lives and dies for a meaning, a universal order. When that order was represented by the Shamans, he followed it untill it broke him, and when he discovered it was false it was the last straw: killing because of lies. It didn't truly matter that he always knew those deaths acomplished nothing, or that he was danming himself. No, what made he think he couldn't stop, besides the threat of spiritual annhilation, was the belief that if he abandoned his religion the universe would lose all meaning and nothing would make sense anymore.

Now that he lost everything, now that he realized nothing ever made sense, there is only one path left. One path that he believes will save him from the madness of the cruel world that forced him to kill hundreds for empty lies. The path offered him by a god who raised him from the dead, promising power, wisdow, and at last, vengeance.

Szeth will not betray Nin, not now. If another path ever opens and he is not to blinded by fanaticism to see, if Nin betrays him like his former masters, then he could bring down Taravangian and all others who used him. I dread this possibility.

@Moogle: I doubt Szeth even cares anymore about that. He wanted to die, but when Nin told him of revenge against the Shamanate he didn't seem to be the least opposed. Worse, he seemed ansious to prove them he was right and they were wrong. If Szeth ever gets redeemed, it will be a long, tortuous road and he may not live to reach its end.

SA1 Szeth was a pitiable fool who didn't deserve to be used like that. SA2 Szeth was a psychotic killer who needed to be put out of his misery. SA3 Szeth? Harmony knows what he could do.

Edited September 9, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Jondesu]

Agreed, Moogle and CognitivePulsePattern, I don't think Szeth will kill T, I just noted that he's not going to be bound by Oaths or any order's strict requirements (it won't make him lose anything like when Kaladin or Shallan betrayed their oaths).  There are plenty of other factors that make it unlikely or almost impossible, though he's been so twisted at this point anything could in theory happen.

 

jW

[Oudeis]

Well... what drew Nin to Szeth was, Szeth's blind obedience to law, beyond reason. So we can maybe assume Szeth will keep that, even if the law he was upholding has proven false; there's every chance he'll simply find a new law to uphold.

 

That said, if he wants to kill Taravangian, I do not believe Taravangian passing a "you cannot kill the king" law is gonna stop him. It was presumably illegal within Alethkar to kill Gavilar, or any of the other Highprinces, Kings, Prime Kadasixen, what-have-you. Szeth was obeying his own law of Shinovar, not each individual place.

 

That said, Nin does seem to believe each individual place has the right to their own laws. And he seems to expect his followers to obey these laws. I wonder if his random minion will actually be convicted of attempted manslaughter? Since the man he tried to kill (and might technically have succeeded) is now the ultimate appeal of the land, I don't personally see his chances as being very good of leniency.

 

I digress. With Nin require Szeth to obey each country's laws? With Szeth agree to this? Stay tuned, I suppose.

 

I agree with Pulse; at this point, Szeth might just be broken beyond repair. I personally have comparatively little sympathy for someone obeying a stupid law and slaughtering dozens of innocents because he was following orders, but I don't see Szeth as a true 'bad guy'. I do think he's just a mad dog at this point, and for the good of all mankind, himself included, should probably be put down. Not as punishment or anything like that. It's a Gordian Knot, basically. There's not a possible positive outcome. I don't believe anything can bring the man peace, anymore, not while he lives, and frankly it's unfair to all of his many, many victims and their families if he avoids all punishment, whatsoever. The only solution I can see at this point would be a severing. Still, perhaps Mr. Sanderson will come up with something better. A simple "redemption," however, I'm not sure I see how that could be. We saw from his own PoV that he went so far off the deep end I wouldn't believe him simply "getting better", and nothing he could ever do would make up for the death and terror he has inspired. Whether he personally accepts responsibility for his crimes or not (which he says he does) I'm not personally willing to accept a "no responsibility" verdict.

 

To digress even further: How do people think Gawx healed himself? A glowing young girl dives out of nowhere, spits light onto him, and suddenly he's healed. Who is dumb enough to think that's something he did to himself? I'll re-read the passage, but wasn't he crowded around by people? Weren't a ton of people watching?

 

Between this and the Duel... people on Roshar must be really, really stupid.

[Yata]

That said, Nin does seem to believe each individual place has the right to their own laws. And he seems to expect his followers to obey these laws. I wonder if his random minion will actually be convicted of attempted manslaughter? Since the man he tried to kill (and might technically have succeeded) is now the ultimate appeal of the land, I don't personally see his chances as being very good of leniency.

This is exactly the reason of my "Stupid law" (again, the Law could be less stupid than mine XD).

Nin could not leave his Best-Made-to-be-Skybreaker to fall in the "crime".

 

To opposite to the Syl's world "What is good or bat is meaningless, the only important thing is the Law".

[DreamEternal]

To digress even further: How do people think Gawx healed himself? A glowing young girl dives out of nowhere, spits light onto him, and suddenly he's healed. Who is dumb enough to think that's something he did to himself? I'll re-read the passage, but wasn't he crowded around by people? Weren't a ton of people watching?

Ignoring somethings you said about Szeth I disagree with (e.g. punishing him as a compensation for the families of the people he killed, since I don't really care for justice for its own sake, only to stop future damage), I must remind you that Lift wasn't glowing. She metabolized the little calories she had into a very small amount of stormlight and breathed it into Gawx from very close. There weren't many opportunities to see she was the one healing him.

[Oudeis]

I disagree... Wyndle makes it seem like Regrowth is a big deal. Doesn't she glow noticeably when she's only about to make some plants grow? How could she grow less noticeably than that to have enough stormlight to bring someone back from the dead?

 

Is it expressly stated that it was "a very small amount" of Stormlight, or is that an inference on your part? Also, she was basically lying on the ground on top of the corpse. Did no one think that was odd? At least worthy of question? They seem to have unanimously come to the conclusion that he performed the miracle of Regrowth on himself; I just find that odd, given the circumstances. Though no odder than a group in a bureaucracy actually coming to a conclusion.

 

Eh, punishment for criminals is a complicated issue. Does it not cause the victims of his family pain, seeing him walking around, empowered, free, unpunished for his crimes? Does it not cause them undue harm to deny them closure? How do you measure damage? At the end of the day, we all have our own opinions, we all have our own "this matters, this doesn't," but there's no way to prove it. You can't measure suffering. "It would cause 89 SI units of suffering to leave him alive, and 109 SI units of suffering to kill him. He remains alive." Ultimately, it will always come down to our own personal philosophies.

 

I do think you're downplaying the damage a lack of justice can do. My friend lost family in an incident officially classified as a "massacre", and I can assure you, if the man responsible had simply walked free, it would have done significant damage to her. His imprisonment isn't some "compensation" to her; it was an incredibly necessary closure. And I assure you, this man believes even less than Szeth that he did anything wrong.

[Yata]

I disagree... Wyndle makes it seem like Regrowth is a big deal. Doesn't she glow noticeably when she's only about to make some plants grow? How could she grow less noticeably than that to have enough stormlight to bring someone back from the dead?

 

Is it expressly stated that it was "a very small amount" of Stormlight, or is that an inference on your part? Also, she was basically lying on the ground on top of the corpse. Did no one think that was odd? At least worthy of question? They seem to have unanimously come to the conclusion that he performed the miracle of Regrowth on himself; I just find that odd, given the circumstances. Though no odder than a group in a bureaucracy actually coming to a conclusion.

Reading the book I tought that Lift doesn't glow at all. She do not restrain stormlight into herself. She converted food to Investiture (stormlight) but her body doesn't seem to leak it out.

 

Maybe in her peculiar state, is a perfect (or at least much better) Stormlight's vessel than a "average" surgebinder.

[DreamEternal]

I am not downplaying anything, it is just, as you said, a divergence of opinions: what is worst, killing a man who won't do any harm anymore for something he did at the past, or letting people suffer from seeing him unpunished? Of course, I am against Szeth becoming a leading menber of the New Radiants, and I would not oppose he getting imprisioned or forced to live in isolation even after a redemption.

And yes, in his current state it would be saner to stop him at all costs, I only wonder if it would truly be necessary to punish him if he does get redeemed, as long as he is not made into a hero, something he surely isn't, or his dark deeds are forgotten. Actualy, the happiest ending I can reasonably expect is that Szeth realizes the evil of his actions, helps save Roshar in some significant way, and fakes his death to expend his life in isolation.

Of course, it seems more likely he will be a villain until his bitter, tragic death.

Edited September 9, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oudeis]

Eh. You seem to be operating on the assumption that life is best in all circumstances. Szeth himself hoped to die, and was upset he didn't. One of the reasons I think Szeth's death might be the best circumstance at this point would be for himself; is there any reason to suspect he wants to live for life's sake, at this point? He's not a very happy man.

 

Also, I have difficulty imagining that it will ever be safe to assume that Szeth will definitely never harm another person; as I've mentioned, his very existence will harm the families of his victims. And even if he does get "redeemed" (which I don't see how anything short of full heroic sacrifice could redeem him by this point), if there's nothing permanent in his guilt, then there's nothing permanent in his redemption; what's to prevent him from following a new code of laws slavishly and with as bloody and pointless a result?

 

 

Reading the book I tought that Lift doesn't glow at all. She do not restrain stormlight into herself. She converted food to Investiture (stormlight) but her body doesn't seem to leak it out.

 

Maybe in her peculiar state, is a perfect (or at least much better) Stormlight's vessel than a "average" surgebinder.

 

I'm gonna read this section again... I feel like I would have noticed if she was a Surgebinder who didn't seem to hold Stormlight. I realize she metabolizes what she needs, but she's also got the storm in her blood like Kaladin mentions when he's simply Invested. It would be incredibly remarkable for her to expressly not be glowing while doing this, and I feel like I would have noticed.

[DreamEternal]

By redemption, I don't mean making up for the damage he did. I mean changing and learning do he will never do it again. And while he doens't care about life anymore, I hope he starts caring, because as Kaladin demonstrated in WoK, its is better to care.

But, as I wrote on my edit, now the best I expect of him is a painless death and less colateral damage in his new character arc.

[Oudeis]

Her hand glowed faintly with white light, like vapor coming off the skin.

 

She glows. For reference, this is when she's summoning Awesomeness in order to use Growth, so even when she's calling it up to directly use it, she still glows in the meantime.

 

Szeth: In short, there are some messes too broke to fix, all you can do is make an ending. Unless you happen to believe, "Survival at literally any cost is most important," I don't believe a life of isolation and exile would be kind even to Szeth himself; existence for him now is pain and misery, without significant hope of that changing. You said you think he simply doesn't care, and that he'll be better if he learns to. I disagree whole-heartedly. Szeth absolutely does care, which is why living is, for him, torture. Caring, every moment of every day, about every life he took. His problem isn't apathy. It's agony. Sitting him somewhere to wait decades until his body stops would not be a kindness to him, I believe. I can't personally conceive of a different resolution. The guilt of having killed hundreds of people does not simply dissolve, under literally any circumstance.

[DreamEternal]

@Oudeis: at least we can agree that from what we have seen so far, the most likely ending for Szeth is a dark, if necessary, one. It was enlightening to have such an in depth discussion about whom I think is the most controversial character Brandon wrote so far.

Edited September 9, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oudeis]

I disagree, he's not controversial!

 

Just my little joke, of course. You're right; feelings on Szeth are all over the map. He inspires tremendous sympathy, and rightly so... and also tremendous ire, and rightly so.

 

Eh, my thought on Szeth's ending is... that it's far off. Who can say what can or might happen in the books to come? If most of humanity fails to survive to book 5 (at this point, most of humanity might not survive the first chapters of book 3), we could be looking at an entirely different story. Hopefully, we'll get our first good look at the Stone Shamanate, and that might provide some much-needed context.

 

At this moment, I have difficulty seeing a path that would lead to anything but Szeth's death. That said, there might be many miles to walk before we get there, and the path could look very different by then.