Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 Didn't Wax just steelpush on the second bullet to speed it up?
Voidus Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 Didn't Wax just steelpush on the second bullet to speed it up? Yes I believe he did.
Charononus Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Time and space are the same thing in someways and they're both influenced by gravity. The edge of a bubble almost has to have a gravity distortion. If you were able to toss a bubble in front and behind a ship it should set up a situation similar to the theoretical warp drive. It would in theory work similar to the Alcubierre drive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive The one problem with this is that radiation inside the ship would be high, so in this situation you'd probably need to have double gold to live thru it.
Voidus Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Time and space are the same thing in someways and they're both influenced by gravity. The edge of a bubble almost has to have a gravity distortion. If you were able to toss a bubble in front and behind a ship it should set up a situation similar to the theoretical warp drive. It would in theory work similar to the Alcubierre drive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive The one problem with this is that radiation inside the ship would be high, so in this situation you'd probably need to have double gold to live thru it. Given the way that bubbles work I doubt they have any gravitational distortion, let alone enough to produce a FTL engine.
Jondesu he/him Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Given the way that bubbles work I doubt they have any gravitational distortion, let alone enough to produce a FTL engine. This. Everyone's trying to apply physics to this, but bubbles work on the Cognitive Realm largely, from what we've been told. Things that aren't completely in them cognitively aren't affected, and I'm guessing beams of light, waves of energy, etc, are some of those things. It's not a purely "physical" time-bubble, there's more weird magicky stuff going on that affects everything involved. jW
Charononus Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 This. Everyone's trying to apply physics to this, but bubbles work on the Cognitive Realm largely, from what we've been told. Things that aren't completely in them cognitively aren't affected, and I'm guessing beams of light, waves of energy, etc, are some of those things. It's not a purely "physical" time-bubble, there's more weird magicky stuff going on that affects everything involved. jW But we know that the people do in fact blur. Your vision is based on waves of light and as such light/energy does definitely seem to be effected.
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 But we know that the people do in fact blur. Your vision is based on waves of light and as such light/energy does definitely seem to be effected. If you wave your hand in front of your eyes really fast it will also look blurred, does that mean it's in a speed bubble? The blurring is more a consequence of our eyes and visual centre of the brain only being able to process 10 to 12 images per second (according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate I'd always heard 23img/second before, but it doesn't affect the argument). It does not mean anything about the effects of speed bubbles on lightwaves. 1
Charononus Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) If you wave your hand in front of your eyes really fast it will also look blurred, does that mean it's in a speed bubble? The blurring is more a consequence of our eyes and visual centre of the brain only being able to process 10 to 12 images per second (according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate I'd always heard 23img/second before, but it doesn't affect the argument). It does not mean anything about the effects of speed bubbles on lightwaves. But that is a function of the light waves moving out of the bubble. If light wasn't effected you wouldn't be able to see that bluring. The same with the popping noise from the sound waves. edit* I'm not explaining my thoughts well at the moment. I'm going to take a day or two to try figure out how to word my thoughts better into a thought experiment. Edited October 19, 2015 by Charononus
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 ...If light wasn't effected you wouldn't be able to see that bluring... How do you figure that? What do you think you would see instead? Ah! Different meanings for "blur". I interpreted it as sort of afterimages, as Steelrunning people are also described as "blurring". Are you possibly interpreting it as the people in the speedbubble looking fuzzy (first synonym I could come up with) due to photons being redirected because of traversing the speedbubble's edge like happens with bullets?
Voidus Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I imagine the bending light is due to the difference in the medium it's travelling through, the same reason it bends when moving from water into air.
Haelbarde he/him Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Anyone read xkcd? Because this comic seems somewhat relevant to this discussion: Alt text: 'Am I taking care of you? I have a thesis to write!' 'My parents are at their house; you visited last--' 'No, no, explain like you're five.' Explanation of comic here, if needed. Slightly more on topic, where's Kurkistan when you need him!?! Here is his mega post on the topic, if anyone was wandering. I suspect this is what the OP came across. Edited October 19, 2015 by Haelbarde
Leviathan Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 It's probably wrong that my brain went straight to a Speed compounder pulling a Flash to move at relativistic speeds and hurl a spaceship like a discuss, isn't it? .... actually.. that's another thought... Speed tapping is quite linear in Mistborn. ie, you store ten hours of speed in a metalmind and you can move at ten times normal speed for an hour. What happens if you store up enough speed and then tap it all at once to move at two, three, ten, fifty times the speed of light?...
Voidus Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 It's probably wrong that my brain went straight to a Speed compounder pulling a Flash to move at relativistic speeds and hurl a spaceship like a discuss, isn't it? .... actually.. that's another thought... Speed tapping is quite linear in Mistborn. ie, you store ten hours of speed in a metalmind and you can move at ten times normal speed for an hour. What happens if you store up enough speed and then tap it all at once to move at two, three, ten, fifty times the speed of light?... Well compounding a trait like that reduces its effectiveness, turning ten hours of going at half speed into one hour of speed wouldn't give you 5x, it'd be more like 4 and a bit times. So I imagine that you probably couldn't get enough speed in a lifetime to compound enough to even reach the speed of light, let alone any more.
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Also, I think there's a WoB somewhere that you could get close to the speed of light with steelrunning (for a steel-steel twinborn, otherwise you'd indeed have trouble storing up enough speed) but you can't reach it (can't find the WoB right now, sorry).
Leviathan Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Well compounding a trait like that reduces its effectiveness, turning ten hours of going at half speed into one hour of speed wouldn't give you 5x, it'd be more like 4 and a bit times. So I imagine that you probably couldn't get enough speed in a lifetime to compound enough to even reach the speed of light, let alone any more. Well, except that Compounding explicitly means you get more out of the equation than you put in. I'm not sure that exact numbers have ever been advised but if say Compounding doubles what you put in then you'll hit relativistic and beyond speeds quite easily. I mean, you store an hour of double moving speed and compound it for two hours, compound again for four, eight, sixteen, thirty two.. As Crichton said "Okay boys and girls, here are the rules. Find a penny, pick it up. Double it, you've got two pennies. Double it again - four. Double it 27 more times, and you've got a million dollars and the IRS all over your chull. Round and round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows, but it all adds up...quick." Also, I think there's a WoB somewhere that you could get close to the speed of light with steelrunning (for a steel-steel twinborn, otherwise you'd indeed have trouble storing up enough speed) but you can't reach it (can't find the WoB right now, sorry). Ah, well WoB trumps my random theorying I'd have to say that not being able to hit the speed of light would (mathematically speaking) be a physics issue rather than a 'can't store up enough speed' issue. Edited October 21, 2015 by Leviathan
Voidus Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Well, except that Compounding explicitly means you get more out of the equation than you put in. I'm not sure that exact numbers have ever been advised but if say Compounding doubles what you put in then you'll hit relativistic and beyond speeds quite easily. I mean, you store an hour of double moving speed and compound it for two hours, compound again for four, eight, sixteen, thirty two.. As Crichton said "Okay boys and girls, here are the rules. Find a penny, pick it up. Double it, you've got two pennies. Double it again - four. Double it 27 more times, and you've got a million dollars and the IRS all over your chull. Round and round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows, but it all adds up...quick." Except that as mentioned the more you compound the more you lose, compounding it to a few million times faster would probably take a few billion hours of speed. Probably possible still for a compounder but you'd need to be swallowing steel rings by the handful then burning and re-storing. And there's also the problem of your metalminds getting prohibitively large. It's all pretty academic though since you'd self-combust long before you hit the speed of light, friction being the annoying thing that it is and all.
natc Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) No compounder would ever just burns ALL of their storage like that, tbh. Total waste of power. I doubt an entire shard or even two has enough power to provide the literally infinite energy needed to reach light speed physically, and that's the maximum amount of power you can actually store through compunding, as your power source is allomancy, which is fueled by Preservation/Harmony. It's much more effective to mess with physics itself to produce that result rather than trying to literally create infinity. Shards are themselves finite, they just seem to have so much investiture that temporary uses of it barely make a dent before it comes back to them. Pure Speed compounding will NEVER reach the speed of light. There's not even enough steel to hold it all. Edited October 21, 2015 by natc 1
Leviathan Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Except that as mentioned the more you compound the more you lose, compounding it to a few million times faster would probably take a few billion hours of speed. Probably possible still for a compounder but you'd need to be swallowing steel rings by the handful then burning and re-storing. And there's also the problem of your metalminds getting prohibitively large. It's all pretty academic though since you'd self-combust long before you hit the speed of light, friction being the annoying thing that it is and all. As a matter of interest, where are you getting this "the more you compound the more you lose" thing? Because everything I've seen about Compounding strictly says that you get more out of it than you put in and I can't find anything about diminishing returns. On the other hand, dear gods the size of the metalmind, I didn't even consider that. That'd be terrifying! 1
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) He's talking about strictly feruchemical compounding, not the kind where you combine it with allomancy. For instance is you store 100% of your weight for an hour, you could later go around for an hour at 200% of your weight (tap 100% weight + your actual weight), compounding here is where you tap over 100%. So tapping 200% would not last half an hour but only 20 minutes (for example). Tapping 400% would not last half the time compared to tapping 200%, or even a third of the time (using the example above) but just 5 minutes... and so on. So each extra unit of speed you tap drains more speed from your steelmind than the unit before. So in a graph of speed tapped to speed stored you'd flatline before reaching lightspeed. Assuming you don't just trip somewhere and explode against the floor. Edited October 21, 2015 by EagleOfTheForestPath 1
Leviathan Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 He's talking about strictly feruchemical compounding, not the kind where you combine it with allomancy. For instance is you store 100% of your weight for an hour, you could later go around for an hour at 200% of your weight (tap 100% weight + your actual weight), compounding here is where you tap over 100%. So tapping 200% would not last half an hour but only 20 minutes (for example). Tapping 400% would not last half the time compared to tapping 200%, or even a third of the time (using the example above) but just 5 minutes... and so on. So each extra unit of speed you tap drains more speed from your steelmind than the unit before. So in a graph of speed tapped to speed stored you'd flatline before reaching lightspeed. Assuming you don't just trip somewhere and explode against the floor. I'd... never heard of that being called Compounding before. I thought that was just standard Feruchemical tapping, and Compounding was strictly the "Store and burn" method combining Allomancy & Feruchemy.
Voidus Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 He's talking about strictly feruchemical compounding, not the kind where you combine it with allomancy. For instance is you store 100% of your weight for an hour, you could later go around for an hour at 200% of your weight (tap 100% weight + your actual weight), compounding here is where you tap over 100%. So tapping 200% would not last half an hour but only 20 minutes (for example). Tapping 400% would not last half the time compared to tapping 200%, or even a third of the time (using the example above) but just 5 minutes... and so on. So each extra unit of speed you tap drains more speed from your steelmind than the unit before. So in a graph of speed tapped to speed stored you'd flatline before reaching lightspeed. Assuming you don't just trip somewhere and explode against the floor. Yeah sorry, reading the old WoB where he caused us all a mess of confusion by referring to it as compounding so I guess the term was stuck in my head. For reference the WoB: SPORKIFY (18 OCTOBER 2008)And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power? BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008) It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself. In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful. FOOTNOTEWhen Brandon says "compounding" here, he is speaking in a purely Feruchemical sense.
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