Is Lopen a Surgebinder?

[Moogle]

True, but do we have any other evidence of a Radiant ability "triggering" at an Oath? Kaladin was doing Reverse Lashings and taking in Stormlight before he said so much as the first Ideal. The day he said, I will protect those who cannot protect themselves, he started using his abilities better... but not actually any differently. And he learned how to Basic Lash just one day out in the chasms cuz he was trying. The only evidence is Syl the Shardblade. That's precisely one example, and since it was healing their severed bond, I think it makes even worse of an example than it might normally.

 

I'm not suggesting squire abilities are entirely triggered at the third Ideal for Windrunners. I find it likely that, like a lot of Radiant powers, squire powers become more and more pronounced with each oath. I heard there was a recent WoP going so far as to suggest Bridge 4 show off proto-squire abilities in book 1, healing faster than they should, but I can't find it so I give it 50/50 that the person quoting it was mistaken. Best I could find there was this.

 

I'll also go ahead and note we have a few other examples of things triggered at specific oaths:

• Eye color changes (though it might be that Kaladin's eyes changed pre-WoR while he held Stormlight, there's a big difference after getting his Sylblade).
• Summoning your spren as a Shardblade. (WoB.)

i'll agree with you in general that most Surgebinding is probably not a level up thing, but it seems likely a few parts are. (I'll also throw out getting Shardplate as a possible bonus for a future Ideal, though I don't know how likely I find that.)

 

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, mind you. I agree none of this is confirmed, etc. I just think you're underselling things a little. Then again, that may just be because you're trying to tell everyone to stop assuming things, which is fair.

 

Also, is there a distance thing? The Lopen must've been... something, before this Ideal, because he's never near Kaladin after the third Ideal is spoken. Either a Squire bond can be formed regardless of distance (and without conscious decision on either party; I'm gonna say the Lopen might have been trying to take in Stormlight but his Intent was definitely not, "I want to be Kaladin's Squire now"), or they were already something. Maybe when Kaladin was capable of supporting Squires, the Bond influenced spiritual bonds he'd already formed with people that could provide for Squireness, and upgraded them.

 

There's two conflicting things on the distance thing.

• Syl claims if she goes too far away from Kaladin, she'll lose herself. This implies distance strains bonds, but it might just be a spren thing (need to be close Cognitively or something). This limitation might be relaxed after Kal speaks some oaths.
• Location doesn't matter in the Spiritual by WoB.

I'm inclined to think that the whole squire thing is like bonding a Splinter (which, by several WoBs, can give powers). After speaking a number of oaths, Kal gets enough of an Investiture upgrade thanks to a very strong bond with Syl that anyone with a strong bond to him gets benefits - what we'd call being a squire. (Or it might be that they get a secondary bond to Syl.)

 

So, I don't think it's that the oath he spoke "upgraded" anything - the bonds he had was already there, its just that they get benefits now. But that might be semantics. We could use a few WoBs on the matter so we can get some certainty in this arena.

 

I find the idea that Kal's parents are squires of his to be interesting. Seems like there'd be a bond there, though it might have decayed too much in the intervening years.

[Oudeis he/him]

As to that last line... it sounds like something from the spoiler chapters, which I have not read. Is it something people are just speculating, or is that from the teasers?

 

You provide exactly two examples... and isn't eye-color tied in with the Blade? Szeth's eyes change when his Blade is summoned; Moash's eyes change with the Bond. Don't Kaladin's eyes change because he Summoned his Blade? Someone mentioned to me once that an answer is in the spoiler chapter, so please do not reveal if that's the case.

 

So... in short, we have one example. I read that WoB you posted and... well, it's not as clear an answer as I think you think it is. Remember, he answers in signing lines off the cuff. It's a question with an assumed premise, and I've seen him ignore those before to answer what he feels is the "root" question.

 

Even if true, it's basically one (possibly two, if the eye color isn't just the same thing) point of data. And I'm just seeing a lot of circular logic people are using to assume confirmation on more points. I'm just gonna keep an open mind. No one else has to, if they don't want to.

[Moogle]

The last line was my own speculation I just came up with. Nothing related to SA3. Should have phrased it as "the idea that his parents might be", sorry.

 

Eye color might be related to the Blade, but as I said, we have this from the start of WoR:

“We’re still darkeyes, Moash.” [Kaladin said.]

“Not you,” Skar said from his other side. “I saw your eyes during the—”

“Stop!” Kaladin said. He took a deep breath. “Just stop. No more talk of that.”

 

There's an implication that at the fight at the end of WoK that Kaladin had light eyes. This was before he had a Shardblade.

 

The evidence isn't stellar, but there's enough to make lean towards the possibility that there's certain discrete "level-ups", even if for the most part it's not the case. (I'd liken it towards Heightenings, personally, with the difference that there's no way to do a partial Ideal, so you'll see big jumps instead of the fine-grained improvement each Breath gives you.)

[Oudeis he/him]

Interesting. I did miss that, or I thought they simply meant he was glowing, and maybe that made his eyes look brighter. Thank you for the head's up!

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

My headcanon is that Lopen is a squire, but that doesn't necessarily mean he won't/can't become a Surgebinder/KR. After all, if you manage to become a Squire for the Windrunners then you're already following their strict/rigid ethos to a certain degree so it is possible that you could attract an Honourspren in due course.

 

I do agree that it isn't 100% confirmed but the in-book text seems to lean that way. It would help if we had more specifics on Squires (like what is required to form that secondary bond between the Radiant and the Squires-to-be and does it vary between Orders?)

 

On the topic of Radiant Oaths/leveling up, I always thought of it as they would have access to most, if not all the powers available to their order but the base strength is locked for each level and will only increase as they progress through the Oaths (become more efficient in Stormlight consumption etc.) As for the qualm about Stormlight healing Lopen's arm right away, it is possible that Stormlight is just plain efficient at restoring the Physical aspect to match the Spiritual aspect (similarly to

Gold Feruchemy or Elantrian physiology

Edited September 8, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Gizmo]

This is my first post and once I learn how to use the quote function I will be able to post properly, I hope. Oudeis said that Lopen must have been something before because he was never near Kaladin after Kaladin spoke the third ideal.  Unless I've missed something completely, I think they were together. One of the first things Kaladin is asked after he reaches Urithiru is Navani's question about her son.  Kaladin says, "I put him someplace safe before coming to help Dalinar."  We know that 'someplace' was with Lopen and the Herdazians. I know it doesn't say it in the book, but I think it safe to assume that Kaladin took Elhokar there and, therefore, most likely spoke to Lopen before leaving for the battlefield. 

[Yata he/him]

First of all I know that the idea "Lopen-Squire" is not 100% sure, but just probably.

 

Anyway If all the glowing Bridgemen aren't proto-RK and just one is "only a squire". It means that the distance between Kal and they aren't important to grant them squire-abilties.

 

Probably the bond between them are previusly-made, and became more powerfull everytime Kal "unlock" his Oaths.

If this interpretaion is true, the bridgemen's bond to Kal was strenghtened when Kal said the 3rd Oath and they became capable to use stormlight.

 

I repeat myself, this is just a possible interpretation of the RK-Squire mechanics, and is not written in the Stone

[Moogle]

So... in short, we have one example. I read that WoB you posted and... well, it's not as clear an answer as I think you think it is. Remember, he answers in signing lines off the cuff. It's a question with an assumed premise, and I've seen him ignore those before to answer what he feels is the "root" question.

 

(Re: Blades at a certain number of oaths.)

 

We had another WoB on this I just found (of course, paraphrased...):

Question

Cool. I’m not going to bother asking who did right now. With Syl being able to be revived, is Adolin ever going to be able to revive his own blade, or-

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that would be very difficult, as the orig-, in most cases, the original person who broke the oaths has to be the one.

Question

Ok. Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, in most orders, yes.

(source)

 

I'm pretty sure we have another one. I'll go get looking.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

Ym was enough of a Truthwatcher to use Surges, and barely saw, let alone spoke with, his spren.

I, too, believe the Lopen is a squire. I'm just trying to make a distinction. I see a lot of people post theories on the boards, using as evidence things people assume but don't actually know. Sometimes I get a little pedantic about it; I'm sorry if this was one of those times.

Woah. Hold up. Ym was a Truthwatcher?? *super excited gasp* then that gives us an idea of what Glys looks like for art purposes!! The Joy!!

[Oudeis he/him]

Well, it's widely assumed. Ym clearly had access to the Progression Surge, and his spren looked/acted nothing like Wyndle. Either two different types of Spren can make someone an Edgedancer, or Ym was a Truthwatcher.

[DreamEternal]

Well, it's widely assumed. Ym clearly had access to the Progression Surge, and his spren looked/acted nothing like Wyndle. Either two different types of Spren can make someone an Edgedancer, or Ym was a Truthwatcher.

There is also the possibility that Lift perceived her spren differently because she has greater cognitive presence than normal humans, in the same way listeners see regular spren differently and from further away.

[Oudeis he/him]

While that's possible, there is a comment that people do occasionally see Wyndle, specifically references leaves and such. So apparently more people than simply Lift see him that way.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

That and from what little we saw of Ym, he seemed to fit more of the Truthwatcher profile and an Edgedance one

[Oudeis he/him]

Really? He gathers the stories of waifs and urchins. How is that not "remembering those who have been forgotten"? Also, what is a "Truthwatcher" and how do they act? Best we've got is when Renarin says that he sees. In what manner do you think he habitually has been shown to act that strikes you as the guiding principle of Truthwatchers?

[Yata he/him]

Before reading this post I assumed that Ym was a proto-Edgedancer.

His spren was describe (a little) like a gem with "vegetable-like" features (my book is in other lenguages and I don't know how traslate it ). And reading the Interludes I thought that Nin hunted the Eagledancers (possibly Ym and Lift), but it's unlikely because He wasn't sure of "what Lift was" before catching her.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Yata

[DreamEternal]

Before reading this post I assumed that Ym was a proto-Edgedancer.

His spren was describe (a little) like a gem with "vegetable-like" features (my book is in other lenguages and I don't know how traslate it ). And reading the Interludes I thought that Nin hunted the Eagledancers (possibly Ym and Lift), but it's unlikely because He wasn't sure of "what Lift was" before catching her.

Ym's spren actualy looks like a small group of growing plants made of golden light, if I remember correctly.

[Aaronjh he/him]

The Lopen's spren is actually his many cousins that is my guess and how I'm going to read it no matter how it is written.

[Ari he/him]

Really? He gathers the stories of waifs and urchins. How is that not "remembering those who have been forgotten"? Also, what is a "Truthwatcher" and how do they act? Best we've got is when Renarin says that he sees. In what manner do you think he habitually has been shown to act that strikes you as the guiding principle of Truthwatchers?

 

Well, the Truthwatcher's Patron, Paliah, is associated with the essence whose characteristics are Learned / Giving, implying that Truthwatchers should be learned, and that their relationship with their Spren is based on giving in some way. The qualities for Vedel's essence are Loving / Healing, with Loving apparently exemplified by Lift, and healing in her relationship with Wyndle. (I can see Lift's part in how she goes back for her friend, but it's a little difficult to understand the Spren bond without seeing more interaction between her and Wyndle) While what Ym does with his stories does potentially sound like Lift's (second or later) Oath, you can also argue that in giving away shoes for stories, Ym is exemplifying his bond with his Spren, and counter that by healing the urchin, he's exemplifying an edgedancer bond instead.

 

We really need to know more about Renarin or Lift to make a definitive call on which order Ym is, although I'm inclined to say on balance of probablity that he's more likely a Truthwatcher, as while I can see evidence of both secondary essence qualities, I'm not sure we saw anything that exemplifies "loving" in Ym's interaction with the Urchin or with Nale. I'm in two minds about whether the oath Lift swears even applies here- it could refer to remembering the dead, or to remembering the ancients, or a number of other things. If that's her Second Oath, we'd need the third to really understand it, so I feel like it's reaching to use it to justify Ym as an edgedancer, although perhaps I'm being overly cautious there. (I know I probably seem that way to most Sharders )

On the original topic: We know Radiants have auxillaries of sorts that aren't Knights. Squires is a good name for them. We know in the visions we have seen companions of Knights that didn't exhibit any surges but used Stormlight. (which only implies those companions might have been Squires, and only implies that Squires don't have access to surges) We know that Lopen has a relationship to Kaladin, and his breathing in of Stormlight occured after Kaladin swore his third oath. (We also have Words of Brandon that confirm that Radiant abilities are bestowed upon swearing certain oaths, which was heavily implied by the text of WoR and WoK too, so we would expect our first encounter with Squires to happen after someone from a order using Squires swears an oath) Brandon has confirmed that Squires have some powers that are related to the Order they serve, like the Knights gain secondary abilities unrelated to their surges.

 

This could imply that Lopen is one of Kaladin's squires, and not a surgebinder, and it could therefore imply that he'll share whatever Kaladin's secondary ability is. (I don't think we've determined what his equivalent of Shallan's mnemonic abilities is, so it's either non-obvious or it just hasn't come up) It's also completely possible that's incorrect, however, it is the most obvious explanation that requires the fewest additional suppositions, especially given narratively having Teft's explanation about squires so close to what Lopen does would be a big misdirection otherwise. I would say this is now the theory to shoot down. I didn't recall any direct shutdown of the possibility that Squires could access surges in the two linked WoB quotes, however, or that Lopen is in fact a Squire. So it is still possible to shoot down that theory.

 

As for Teft: He's an unreliable source, but what he's said has not been particularly inaccurate within his expressed confidence of each piece of knowledge. (and really, the only thing that he's been confused about so far is that he hasn't known in advance that surges applied two-to-an-order) I think he's there to serve as a way to make Brandon's hints about Radiants more obvious, while still sharing some of the reader's joy of discovery. As was said earlier in the thread, if Teft says something, it's probably best not to automatically assume he's wrong like we would for people who are completely uninformed, but I would verify before I completely trusted his info. Most of his statements in WoR are found duplicated to some degree elsewhere in the books. Whether you count that as verified kinda depends how much you trust various sources, for instance, his backup on Squires is the Words of Radiance epigraphs.

 

On Kaladin's skill with the spear... I'd note that the extra boost Kaladin got from being a proto-radiant might well have helped him maintain the edge in practice and battle that led to him being so skilled in the first place. That's certainly how I interpretted Syl's statement of "it's us" in that conversation. Kaladin had an edge not dissimilar to someone being very talented, which inspired him to practice more, and helped keep him alive in battles that other people at the same level of skill might have died in. Thus while Kaladin earned his skill today, it's probably due in part to the fact he was becoming a radiant as well, the same way people at the peak of other crafts often owe their dedication to the things that made them talented as well.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Ari

[Oudeis he/him]

Kaladin had an edge not dissimilar to someone being very talented, 

 

With respect, I disagree with this statement. In fact, I do more than disagree with it. I propose that you are saying this based on your personal impression of what someone "talented" as a fighter could accomplish naturally.

 

I have spoken with many people who have studied martial arts, most of them black belts. I have described to them the feats laid at Kaladin's feet. I have gotten back unanimous consent. No way that he acts could be described as an actual 'natural' at fighting.

 

I've gotten into this in detail in many places. You can either trust my research, or not. I'm not going to list the entire survey again. Suffice to say, yes, there is of course such a thing as someone being a natural fighter, or a natural surgeon, or a natural pianist, or a natural juggler. Specifically what Kaladin does, however, is NOT what a 'natural fighter' would present as. What he does is literally impossible. The analogy is, someone naturally good at piano might sit at one, never having sat at one before, having only ever heard an amatuer play but heard that people can bring great music out of it, and after a few minutes of tooling around and figuring out which key is which note, manage to knock out a simple, beautiful melody of their own composition, or repeat the tune of a song they know with relatively few mistakes.

 

What Kaladin did would be the equivalent of someone sitting at a piano and playing the accompaniement to Voi Che Sapete from La Nozze di Figaro when he's never heard it before. It's not that the song is difficult, it's that he couldn't be producing a song he's never heard. It's not a matter of being a natural or just being really really good; there are some things you must learn, and cannot simply be born knowing.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Oudeis

[Ari he/him]

With respect, I disagree with this statement. In fact, I do more than disagree with it. I propose that you are saying this based on your personal impression of what someone "talented" as a fighter could accomplish naturally.

 

I have spoken with many people who have studied martial arts, most of them black belts. I have described to them the feats laid at Kaladin's feet. I have gotten back unanimous consent. No way that he acts could be described as an actual 'natural' at fighting.

 

I've gotten into this in detail in many places. You can either trust my research, or not. I'm not going to list the entire survey again. Suffice to say, yes, there is of course such a thing as someone being a natural fighter, or a natural surgeon, or a natural pianist, or a natural juggler. Specifically what Kaladin does, however, is NOT what a 'natural fighter' would present as. What he does is literally impossible. The analogy is, someone naturally good at piano might sit at one, never having sat at one before, having only ever heard an amatuer play but heard that people can bring great music out of it, and after a few minutes of tooling around and figuring out which key is which note, manage to knock out a simple, beautiful melody of their own composition, or repeat the tune of a song they know with relatively few mistakes.

 

What Kaladin did would be the equivalent of someone sitting at a piano and playing the accompaniement to Voi Che Sapete from La Nozze di Figaro when he's never heard it before. It's not that the song is difficult, it's that he couldn't be producing a song he's never heard. It's not a matter of being a natural or just being really really good; there are some things you must learn, and cannot simply be born knowing.

 

I'm not actually arguing that Kaladin's edge is exactly the same thing as being very talented, I am arguing that in terms of developing his skill, it functions in a similar way.

 

Probably a better analogy is someone with three arms playing the piano- they could do things that would be impossible for your typical piano player because they simply couldn't hit three keys so far apart so quickly, which would make things easier for them before they have fully learned how to move their arms and developed the necessary muscle memory needed to play piano at a master level, and that advantage might lead to them becoming a master if they were the only three-armed piano player around, because nobody else would find it quite so easy to hit multiple keys. Once they progressed to being as skilled as masters with two arms, they could then play pieces that were flat-out impossible for other people. It might be that if this person lived in a world full of other three-armed people, they would never dedicate the practice to playing the piano. But in our world where they are an anomaly with an "impossible" advantage, they might end up a master.

 

Likewise, Kaladin trained in an environment where he was likely the only Surgebinder. His ability to use Gravitation as action-at-a-distance likely kept him alive during phases of his training or during battlefield situations that would have killed people who weren't proto-radiants. He may have inhaled small amounts of Stormlight in dire situations and ended up with an edge, and his near-misses in those situations might have allowed him to learn crucial combat lessons that would normally have killed people with his level of skill. This would be similar in effect for his training, although not in method, to someone with a ridiculous talent for fighting that had not yet trained.

 

Does that make more sense? I don't disagree with you that Kaladin does magical and ridiculous things, and that some of those things wouldn't be conceivable to a skilled or talented fighter that didn't have access to magic.

[Oudeis he/him]

You're still ignoring the first time he picked up a staff. Zero training, not a moment's instruction, at best he saw some kids who knew nothing hit each other with sticks... and he fights. Perfectly. Select a tactically sound target, aim at something moving, strike with perfect force. His literal first hit. That's not something from Gravitation (which... I have no idea how you think Gravitation would help him in training) and his Stormlight could grant might, but not skill or training. Even when he desribes training, he does talk about a few things Stormlight can help with... he practices hours a day, he presumably recovers faster from injuries when he makes mistakes, and the like. However, he talks about many things no Stormlight or "proto-Surgebinding" could account for. Consistently, people try to teach him a form, only to have him execute it perfectly the first time, as though he already knew it. Advanced moves he does correctly without instruction. Again and again, over and over.

 

This is simply fundamentally impossible for either normal Stormlight, or for a "natural". A natural would have a steep learning curve and would pick things up quickly... but would still have to be taught something before knowing how to do it, or at least try out a few things and come up with it on his own. There's no such thing as a natural born pre-trained.

[Ari he/him]

You're still ignoring the first time he picked up a staff. Zero training, not a moment's instruction, at best he saw some kids who knew nothing hit each other with sticks... and he fights. Perfectly. Select a tactically sound target, aim at something moving, strike with perfect force. His literal first hit. That's not something from Gravitation (which... I have no idea how you think Gravitation would help him in training) and his Stormlight could grant might, but not skill or training. Even when he desribes training, he does talk about a few things Stormlight can help with... he practices hours a day, he presumably recovers faster from injuries when he makes mistakes, and the like. However, he talks about many things no Stormlight or "proto-Surgebinding" could account for. Consistently, people try to teach him a form, only to have him execute it perfectly the first time, as though he already knew it. Advanced moves he does correctly without instruction. Again and again, over and over.

 

This is simply fundamentally impossible for either normal Stormlight, or for a "natural". A natural would have a steep learning curve and would pick things up quickly... but would still have to be taught something before knowing how to do it, or at least try out a few things and come up with it on his own. There's no such thing as a natural born pre-trained.

 

I had honestly forgotten he did that. It's certainly a leap forward from any other advantage you might have.

 

As for gravitation- basically it can help him by moving people's blows out of the way if he uses it subconsciously.

[Guest]

Just a quick one... Stumble on an old one today... It is appropriate to this thread.

 

Q: Is The Lopen going to become an Edgedancer?

A: The Lopen is currently a squire for the Windrunners, but I got a second RAFO about his future status.

[Yata he/him]

Just a quick one... Stumble on an old one today... It is appropriate to this thread.

 

Q: Is The Lopen going to become an Edgedancer?

A: The Lopen is currently a squire for the Windrunners, but I got a second RAFO about his future status.

It's like I thought the whole time, but it's great to have a WoB about, thanks

[Guest]

It's like I thought the whole time, but it's great to have a WoB about, thanks

 

It's an old one. I stubble on it by accident. I had completely forgotten about it.