Magic the Gathering fans?

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I actually meant put more token mechanics, but populate was on my brain, derp. Is there any chance you can pm me a list of said mechanics please Wyrm, my brain is intrigued now. Currently waiting on a few greens and Magic: Origins Deckbuilder to arrive today ^^

[Dunkum he/him]

I'm personally a fan of Thallids, which are creatures that generate saproling tokens, but they are mostly time spiral block or one of the very old ones.  add in Parallel lives, doubling season, and/or primal vigor, which are all enchantments that double the number of tokens you put into play, and you can end up with just obscene quantities of tokens.  add in some instants and sorceries that buff all creatures you contorl (as opposed to just one) or that let you sac creatures for an effect, and you have fun times

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Doubling Season is going for at leas £20 on madhouse...storms

[Dunkum he/him]

Doubling Season is going for at leas £20 on madhouse...storms

there is a prebuilt commander deck that comes with primal vigor, plus presumably some other good stuff.  not sure on the price, its been years since I bought a prebuilt.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

If your metagame does not contain tokens, Primal Vigor is good enough. Failing that, just make more use of it than everyone else . But if you're not making use of +1/+1 counters (with Primal Vigor) or counters in general (Doubling Season), then you are by far better off with Parallel Lives - It's cheaper in both mana and cost.

 

Weird to hear Doubling Season's $20 again though. I got mine when it was that price about three years ago, then it went down massively when Modern Masters came out. Didn't realise it had risen again, but I guess it's an EDH staple...

 

Generally speaking, there are two main cards my token decks tend to use and abuse: Parallel Lives and Intangible Virtue. Now, admittedly one of my token decks is based on Saprolings and Thallids (I do not have Doubling Season in it though, that's in my EDH deck), and the other is token/sacrifice, but they still have a lot of cards based on tokens themselves.

 

My Saproling deck, for example.

 

As you can see, there are few Populate cards within it, because Saprolings are a very low-value target for it. Mostly, I abuse Sprout Swarm and Parallel Lives to amass a large token army. Then I buff them with Collective Blessing and/or Eldrazi Monument, and swing in. It's very simple to make tokens work without any mechanics, as you just go wide. My sacrifice deck does similar, though it was mostly made from spare cards lying around so it's nowhere near as strong. To be honest, my Saproling deck is probably in need of retuning anyway, as Thallids aren't really all that strong - They're ridiculously slow and easy to deal with. I don't know what I'd replace them with.

 

Keywords that work well with tokens: Populate, Convoke, Devour and Morbid. Populate only works with tokens, for obvious reasons, but you need the right cards for it. Things like Sundering Growth, rather than Druid's Deliverance. You should always focus on the cards which are good without Populate, not cards which are good with it (having said that, I've got a copy in my Saproling deck because I don't have any Sundering Growths). Convoke allows you to power out spells for cheap, though you need to find the right ones to do it work. Obelisk of Urd is a pretty good one, if you focus on one type of token. Devour is very difficult to get right, but if you can defend the creature you've got out with Hexproof, for example, it can set yourself up very well. Mycoloth produces a lot of tokens the next turn, and Thromok, the Devourer is hilarious when paired with Warstorm surge. I've hit someone for 8100 damage off casting him and sacrificing 90 tokens in EDH (I just wanted to deal massive damage to end the game; my opponent did not have 8100 life). Finally, Morbid just works with the whole 'I don't care about my creatures' thing.

 

You can also take advantage of creature/class types. Saprolings have a few 'lords' in the form of Thallids, mostly, but if you go Soldier tokens, there are even more lords which enhance your entire army. Goblins are another good example which have lots of anthem effects, and generally these effects are more interesting than just +1/+1 - look at Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician for example, or Krenko, Mob Boss.

 

Aside from that, sacrifice effects and anthems work really well, as do cards such as Geist-Honoured Monk, who get boosted depending on the number of creatures you control, and produces a pair of Spirit tokens. Generally it's best not to use Sublime Archangel (from M13) or the new equipment in Origins which gives 'Exalted' though, as they give your armies obvious weak-points. Battle Cry is pretty good, if you can get decent creatures with it, as it buffs your entire army when they attack. Equipment also works well, as you don't care if the token dies, as you can snap the Equipment to another copy . Then there's also, as have been mentioned, instants and sorceries which temporarily enhance your team. Generally I would prefer a permanent effect though, as relying on temporary buffs can go badly if they fail.

 

My friend has a token deck as well (his is actually based around Populate) and it abuses Mimic Vat and Fellhide Spiritbinder to copy things such as Trostani's Summoner - The original creature dies at end of turn, but the creatures it spawns survive! And you can also Populate the transient copies as well, for even more things. It's very annoying when it gets into play, very difficult to race or get through them without boardwipes.

 

So when I said 'there are many mechanics', I wasn't referring to Keywords in particular, but general abilities.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[Quiver he/him]

Random question.

How does one get into the lore of M:tG?

When I was younger, I bought a starter deck for the Mercadian Masques which came with a Weatherlight novel.

Does anyone have any advice on how to get "in" to Magic's story stuff?

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I was actually asking myself this with the release of Magic:Origins. I read some articles before but can't remember where exactly. I was actually hoping for a book/encyclopaedia/history timeline or something meself

[Wyrmhero he/him]

That's a good question, and not one with an easy answer, I'm afraid .

 

Back in the past, the MtG 'fatpacks' used to contain 6 booster packs from a set, and a novel based on the set as well. The novel's now been taken out, and the story's done differently. There are four primary places to get the lore:

1. The cards themselves. There is a surprising amount of story on the cards themselves, both flavourtext and the artwork. A lot of it is tangential to the main plot-line, but it's all about the world and the story in general.
2. The books. While these have now been discontinued, the vast majority of the storyline can be found in the books they used to bring out with each set. The writing is of... dubious quality. They ended with Theros.
3. The Planeswalker Comics, a short enterprise in graphic storytelling. From the bottom travelling upwards, timewise, this tells a few stories from the Shards of Alara block, up to Innistrad.
4. Uncharted Realms. Since discontinuing the novels, Wizards of the Coast have decided to contain all their actual story in the Uncharted Realms section on their website. The current stories on there are about the five Planeswalkers contained in Origins, and comprise of their youth and first Planeswalk, followed by their current situation.

The MtG Wiki also contains some information, though it can be difficult if you don't know what you're looking for.

 

It's difficult to explain the Magic storyline, a lot of the time because it's questionable how much the sets interact. The main turning point, however, was the Time Spiral block. Within this story, a lot of the old Planeswalkers died, including people on the Weatherlight. New Planeswalkers have been brought down to a more 'relateable' level by an event known as The Mending, and the first block with the new setting is Lorwyn - Though Planeswalkers didn't feature within it. Shards of Alara is the first block to actually contain Planeswalkers within the story. My suggestion would be to read a synopsis of each block, more than anything.

 

Generally speaking, there are three, maybe four, current plots to follow:

1. Nicol Bolas was a draconic Planeswalker from before The Mending, and he got just a little miffed at losing his powers after reappearing in Time Spiral. His storyline begins in Shards of Alara, and then briefly touches on Zendikar and Scars of Mirrodin. This plot-line has, arguably, been the least progressed at the moment, and it's quite possible that Wizards is just having him be this ominous shadow that sets things in motion without doing anything.
2. The Eldrazi appeared in Zendikar, great eldritch abominations that literally go around eating Planes. Their story is the most developed right now. The characters follow on to briefly touch down in Innistrad and Return to Ravnica, before going to Khans of Tarkir. The next block, Battle for Zendikar, continues this storyline.
3. New Phyrexia is a continuation of the Weatherlight plotline, in essence, with a new version of Phyrexia that does not follow Yawgmoth. This plot begins in Mirrodin, pre-Mending, and then cameos on Time Spiral before happening again in Scars of Mirrodin. After this, one of the characters flees to Theros. This is likely to be developed post-Battle for Zendikar.
4. Liliana's Demons are a group of four incredibly-powerful demons who bestowed the Planeswalker Liliana with power, after she got a bit whiny about no longer being immortal and ageless following the events of the Mending (as she existed beforehand). This plot is a tentative fourth, because there is only one other recurring character involved so far. This story visits Innistrad, and forms the basis for M15, and is mentioned in Origins.

Something important to note; The Magic timeline is *screwed up*. The events of the Mending of Time Spiral block occurred perhaps 150 years before the events of the current blocks. Despite this, at least one of the mortal, human characters survived all that time with no explanation. Don't expect amazing writing or consistency here, is my warning. The Magic story is interesting, but I feel it's better in broad strokes rather than specific minutiae.

 

If you have more specific questions, feel free to ask.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[Dunkum he/him]

my honest recommendation on the lore is not to bother.  the stuff that comes with the fatpacks is interesting enough, but havign read a few of the old novels, they tended to be pretty bad.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Which was the mortal human that survived?

 

And for a standard deck of 60 cards (and factoring in theme etc.) what is the average amount of lands you folks use?

Edited July 31, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[WayneSpren he/him]

Me:

Green/White 

Ramp/Lifegain

 

Ajani Trainer of Heroes

 

YOU CANNOT WIN

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Which was the mortal human that survived?

 

And for a standard deck of 60 cards (and factoring in theme etc.) what is the average amount of lands you folks use?

 

Venser was first seen in the Time Spiral block as one of two neowalkers. He was last seen in Scars of Mirrodin, which occurred ~ 150 years later or something and

will never be seen again >>

. I believe the other events near Time Spiral, such as the Planeswalker novels, were that long ago too, but with Origins now setting the standard, it's questionable how much that's canon.

 

The standard number of lands you are meant to use is 2/5ths of the size of the deck. In limited with 40 cards, you use ~16, in constructed with 60 ~24, and in EDH ~40. Now, this number can change quite a bit depending on the average converted mana cost of the deck, and the amount of ramp or fixing within it. The vast majority of my 60 card decks have 23 lands in them, either due to a little bit of fixing, or due to it being multiplayer a lot of the time when I play. My monored Elementals has 20 lands, whereas my Land deck has around 28.

 

Me:

Green/White 

Ramp/Lifegain

 

Ajani Trainer of Heroes

 

Speaking of my Land deck, one of my favourite wins was against a deck like this . Opponent managed to Lifelink themselves up to ~400 life, by bouncing his creatures off my indestructibles. He didn't have trample though (couldn't draw into Nylea), so he couldn't actually break through. Being able to better-than-chump-block his creatures for a while allowed me to find my own answers to his big creatures, before starting to swing into his life total with my unkillable but still rather tough critters. Unfortunately, big creatures and massive life totals mean nothing if you can't finish the game with them

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

The standard number of lands you are meant to use is 2/5ths of the size of the deck. In limited with 40 cards, you use ~16, in constructed with 60 ~24, and in EDH ~40. Now, this number can change quite a bit depending on the average converted mana cost of the deck, and the amount of ramp or fixing within it. The vast majority of my 60 card decks have 23 lands in them, either due to a little bit of fixing, or due to it being multiplayer a lot of the time when I play. My monored Elementals has 20 lands, whereas my Land deck has around 28.

 

 

Speaking of my Land deck, one of my favourite wins was against a deck like this . Opponent managed to Lifelink themselves up to ~400 life, by bouncing his creatures off my indestructibles. He didn't have trample though (couldn't draw into Nylea), so he couldn't actually break through. Being able to better-than-chump-block his creatures for a while allowed me to find my own answers to his big creatures, before starting to swing into his life total with my unkillable but still rather tough critters. Unfortunately, big creatures and massive life totals mean nothing if you can't finish the game with them

 

That's not too bad then, as i usually rock 22. What does your land-deck composition look like/aim to do?

[Dunkum he/him]

I have a friend who used to swear by a ration of more like 3/10.  he put 18 lands in each of his 60 card decks, and regularly beat me.  he also tended to play cheaper cards (mana wise) than I did, though, which probably helped.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

I have a friend who used to swear by a ration of more like 3/10.  he put 18 lands in each of his 60 card decks, and regularly beat me.  he also tended to play cheaper cards (mana wise) than I did, though, which probably helped.

 

That's fine, if you're playing burn with a low curve (I believe monored legacy burn runs 18 lands, of which half are fetches), or with a lot of ramp. I doubt the lower land-count would be a reason though. Either it had more redundancy (likely, if it's burn), or it was just a hard counter with its speed (such as if you were playing any kind of control or very high CMC deck). It could also have been that his deck worked with itself better than yours. But outside of burn, you definitely do not want that few. What sort of games did you play though? If the games lasted until turn 10, then your deck simply wasn't fast enough and he had more value out of his cards when he actually had the lands to cast them. Practically every deck should be able to win by turn 10 against a mana screwed opponent. Unless he never actually shuffled properly, of course, which would be my concern if a friend ran that many lands but never had difficulties casting more expensive spells.

 

That's not too bad then, as i usually rock 22. What does your land-deck composition look like/aim to do?

 

This is the deck. There are 26 lands (in the current build. It's fluctuated between 24 and 30 at times), but 4 of those are Dryad Arbors, so they're also creatures as well and I can get away with it a bit. Generally speaking, the deck attempts to build a strong defensive position by using Dryad Arbors (in combination with Terra Eternal), Karametra and Sapling of Colefenor. When effects like Dictate of Heliod get online, I start smashing into my opponents with my other man-lands. At the same time, I also attempt to gain small advantages via Landfall effects. They give me stuff like life, card draw and creature tokens.

 

Note that there is actually very little ramp in the deck (and any that is comes from Green Sun's Zenith for X = 0). Mostly, this is due to the fact that there are very few basic lands in the deck, and non-basic ramp is sadly hard to come by. If I was able to change the deck, there are really two things I would like to add - Crucible of Worlds (expensive, sadly) and another Oracle of Mul Daya (also expensive, but not anywhere near as much). BFZ should give me some nice new tools for the deck though, so I'm interested in seeing what changes there..

Edited August 1, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Hmm, interesting. I'm intrigued to see what BFZ brings, and i'll probably buy the duel deck as well, but i wish i didn't have to wait till october >.>

Edited August 12, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Apologies for the double post, but if a creature is hexproof, can it be targeted by planeswalker abilities or can it only be affected if the ability targets the player? (thinking Mr Bolas here)

Edited August 12, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Wyrmhero he/him]

A creature (or any permanent) with Hexproof cannot be the target of any spell or ability an opponent controls. This includes Planeswalker abilities. Note that this means you cannot cast or activate (or trigger) these spells or abilities with that creature as a target, so if there are no valid targets, you can't use them. This is often why Planeswalkers say 'up to one creature', so you can still activate their plus loyalty abilities. If a creature becomes Hexproof before a spell resolves, it is no longer affected by the spell or ability, and if the spell or ability only targeted it, it is countered as a state-based action.

 

Compare to Shroud, which was the older version, which prevented all players from targeting the creature. This meant you couldn't cast spells or target them with abilities, or even enchant or equip them. Interestingly though, and this goes for Hexproof too on your opponent's creatures, it is possible to bypass enchant and equip, and attach auras and equipment to Hexproof/Shrouded creatures by effects such as Zur, the Enchanter. This is incredibly useful for my EDH deck built around Zur, as it means I can Pacify horrible Shrouded/Hexproofed creatures.

 

Abilities which target players get around Hexproof - Spells such as Cruel Edict target the player, and they make the choice, for instance. Abilities which don't target the creature can also still affect it, such as Council's Judgement.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Bah, thought that was the case. Was hoping that it could get around Nicol's 3rd ability but apparently not. On the subject of Elder Dragons, would it wise to invest in Ugin (Tarkhir version) with the upcoming Zendikar block?

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Bah, thought that was the case. Was hoping that it could get around Nicol's 3rd ability but apparently not. On the subject of Elder Dragons, would it wise to invest in Ugin (Tarkhir version) with the upcoming Zendikar block?

 

When you say 'Invest'...? (for reference, price history). It's pretty much impossible to say what sort of decks will exist post-rotation here. It's likely Standard will swing towards higher mana costs due to Eldrazi and Land-based format. Ugin will probably see play in that enviroment, I would say, unless decks change dramatically. He's also a Mythic Rare and a Planeswalker, and sees play in Modern. So his price is likely to stay high for a while. The question here though is whether it gets higher, and that's debatable considering his cost. People won't want a full playset in their deck when he costs 8. He'll decrease quite a bit when he rotates out, for that matter. After that, he'll be out of print and start to climb again. We're also in the middle of the Pro Tour season, which pushes the price up a bit.

 

If you're looking at him for Standard, I'd suggest waiting for the duel deck and seeing what new mechanic Zendikar has, and some of the new cards. If they lean towards a ramp-ish game, then it suggests Standard will be slower and high cost things will see play. I'd also judge it based on how prominent he is in Standard right now. If no decks are playing him, then he is likely to be cheaper.

 

...But really, despite thinking of it like that, I couldn't tell you. Speculating on the prices of cards is very difficult, and particularly when they're already at a high price.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Hmm, well i've preordered the duel deck anyway so yeah, I'll see what is new/has changed. Might buy him come payday this month as a treat, especially to tick off one of my friends (he has two Nicols in his deck that he just loves to play, especially when I have no means to counter it)

Edited August 12, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Dunkum he/him]

A creature (or any permanent) with Hexproof cannot be the target of any spell or ability an opponent controls. This includes Planeswalker abilities. Note that this means you cannot cast or activate (or trigger) these spells or abilities with that creature as a target, so if there are no valid targets, you can't use them. This is often why Planeswalkers say 'up to one creature', so you can still activate their plus loyalty abilities. If a creature becomes Hexproof before a spell resolves, it is no longer affected by the spell or ability, and if the spell or ability only targeted it, it is countered as a state-based action.

 

Compare to Shroud, which was the older version, which prevented all players from targeting the creature. This meant you couldn't cast spells or target them with abilities, or even enchant or equip them. Interestingly though, and this goes for Hexproof too on your opponent's creatures, it is possible to bypass enchant and equip, and attach auras and equipment to Hexproof/Shrouded creatures by effects such as Zur, the Enchanter. This is incredibly useful for my EDH deck built around Zur, as it means I can Pacify horrible Shrouded/Hexproofed creatures.

 

Abilities which target players get around Hexproof - Spells such as Cruel Edict target the player, and they make the choice, for instance. Abilities which don't target the creature can also still affect it, such as Council's Judgement.

that workaround is absurd, and really shouldnt be allowed to work.  there's no reason they couldnt specify in the rules that the aura has to have a valid target or whatever.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

that workaround is absurd, and really shouldnt be allowed to work.  there's no reason they couldnt specify in the rules that the aura has to have a valid target or whatever.

 

The Aura still has to have a valid target. The bit that specifies the 'valid target' is in the 'Enchant Creature' section of the Aura. Aura spells only target on cast, by the very nature of how an Aura works (and by how equipping works, on resolution rather than continual checking). If it was not true, then if a creature became Shrouded after being Enchanted, the Aura would drop off. This way solves far more problems than it causes.

[Dunkum he/him]

The Aura still has to have a valid target. The bit that specifies the 'valid target' is in the 'Enchant Creature' section of the Aura. Aura spells only target on cast, by the very nature of how an Aura works (and by how equipping works, on resolution rather than continual checking). If it was not true, then if a creature became Shrouded after being Enchanted, the Aura would drop off. This way solves far more problems than it causes.

well, perhaps a better phrasing is needed, but my point is simply that the aura should have to target something when it comes into play/is attached, which means that hexproof or shroud should block it being attached(though obviously the rules now don't work that way).  put another way, I think the rule should be something along the lines of "when the aura comes into play (or should that say as it is being put onto the battlefield?) attach it to target permanent"  with some language about valid targets and so on. makes perfect sense to me that it should be allowed to remain if the hexproof/shroud effect is granted after it is attached.

 

also, auras do have some amount of continual checking.  if you have an artifact or enchanment that can temporarily become a creature, then you could enchant them with an "enchant creature" aura while they are a creature, but it would fall off once they revert back to an invalid type (I am 100% sure of this, as I actually looked it up once).  I believe the same applies to equipment.  likewise, I believe if a permanent is granted Protection from the aura's color (or anything else that might cause it to be invalid), then the aura falls off, though I am less sure of this.  not claiming any of this should cause an aura to fall off if a creature gained shroud in the interim, since that just blocks the initial target, while these effects make the actual enchanting invalid.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Thing is that doing it like that would require extra ruling only for Auras, and they already have a lot of rulings to make them exist. Personally, I think the ruling's good, because there has to be some counterplay for Hexproof stuff (one of my least favourite mechanics...). Not that it comes up all that often, to be fair.

 

You are correct. Auras continually check whenever state-based effects go off to see if what it is enchanting is still valid by the Enchant ~ line. Likewise, Equipment do the same to check that they are still equipped to a creature. For that matter, the solitary Fortification checks that the fortified permenant is a land. And then if the creature gains Protection from anything it is attached to, they drop off automatically (DEBT).