Theory: The Nightwatcher is Cultivation's shardpool

[Gloom he/him]

What if the NightWatcher is the physical representation of the Oath Pact? It honors all agreements, and curses all who visit. That would be Honor and Odium, still not sure where Cultivation would come into it. Perhaps the ability to see the long term affects of the curse and limit the damage it can do, or the ability to alter and rearrange things to meet the requirements of the punishment, IDK.

 

It's been speculated that a control of some sort must exist in order to keep all parties bound to the Oath Pact. If a Shard can manifest physically as a pool, why wouldn't the power invoked by such a pact also have a physical manifestation. This manifestation could be sentient or it could have been given a guardian in order to better arbitrate violations of the pact. The NightWatcher doesn't easily fall into any one category, but could far more easily fall into a mixture of the three.

[Miyabi he/him]

I'm going to agree that Cultivation is probably the Nightwatcher for a few reason.

1. There is discussion of it being a "pool," but also the fact that it has an at least somewhat corporeal form. We have no idea how long this is after we interacted with the other Shards. Perhaps Cultivation has matured to a point where s/he has a corporeal form attached to the "pool." There is also the chance that this form isn't very .... solid, which could be why people mistake the Nightwatcher for a Spren.

2. I'm going to assert that Cultivation is an end-neutral power. As was said earlier in the thread when you Cultivate something you have to put a lot of work into it and you lose things too. (i.e. Nutrients from the ground which have to be replaced before you can grow more of the same type of crop.) This would make the Blessing/Curse balance make sense. The Blessing which is given to you can't come from nowhere, therefore the thing which is lost is something from your own body. This would be much like how Feruchemy works, which is an end-neutral power, you have to lose one thing before you can then gain that same amount back. Though it appears Cultivation can take anything and change it to something else, providing a Curse and a Blessing at the same time.

3. Perhaps these strange ailments have some use we haven't seen before. Maybe seeing upside down was just someone making a consequence up, perhaps that will provide an alternative view on something later that is important.

Whereas I can't explain all of the reason Cultivation would do what it does, I do feel that this theory has a lot of credibility to it in the way that Cultivation should work and the way that the Nightwatcher works.

[Vortaan he/him]

What if the NightWatcher is the physical representation of the Oath Pact? It honors all agreements, and curses all who visit. That would be Honor and Odium, still not sure where Cultivation would come into it. Perhaps the ability to see the long term affects of the curse and limit the damage it can do, or the ability to alter and rearrange things to meet the requirements of the punishment, IDK.

 

It's been speculated that a control of some sort must exist in order to keep all parties bound to the Oath Pact. If a Shard can manifest physically as a pool, why wouldn't the power invoked by such a pact also have a physical manifestation. This manifestation could be sentient or it could have been given a guardian in order to better arbitrate violations of the pact. The NightWatcher doesn't easily fall into any one category, but could far more easily fall into a mixture of the three.

 

Heh, funnily enough I take this another way. I think the Nightwatcher is actually what Nohadon made to limit nahel bonds. Considering the quantum nature of spren, seems likely to me.

 

 

I'm going to agree that Cultivation is probably the Nightwatcher for a few reason.

1. There is discussion of it being a "pool," but also the fact that it has an at least somewhat corporeal form. We have no idea how long this is after we interacted with the other Shards. Perhaps Cultivation has matured to a point where s/he has a corporeal form attached to the "pool." There is also the chance that this form isn't very .... solid, which could be why people mistake the Nightwatcher for a Spren.

2. I'm going to assert that Cultivation is an end-neutral power. As was said earlier in the thread when you Cultivate something you have to put a lot of work into it and you lose things too. (i.e. Nutrients from the ground which have to be replaced before you can grow more of the same type of crop.) This would make the Blessing/Curse balance make sense. The Blessing which is given to you can't come from nowhere, therefore the thing which is lost is something from your own body. This would be much like how Feruchemy works, which is an end-neutral power, you have to lose one thing before you can then gain that same amount back. Though it appears Cultivation can take anything and change it to something else, providing a Curse and a Blessing at the same time.

3. Perhaps these strange ailments have some use we haven't seen before. Maybe seeing upside down was just someone making a consequence up, perhaps that will provide an alternative view on something later that is important.

Whereas I can't explain all of the reason Cultivation would do what it does, I do feel that this theory has a lot of credibility to it in the way that Cultivation should work and the way that the Nightwatcher works.

 

I'm not sure I like the concept of Shards "maturing" to the point where they can assume a physical form. The other instances we have of Shards being taken up be people show that the power of creation is too much to be held within a human form, and basically vaporizes it. It seems like in order to go backwards, you'd need so splinter off a large amount of power.

[Miyabi he/him]

We know that Shardpools are the Cognitive forms of a Shard by WoB.

We also know by WoB, that Spren, are of the Cognitive realm, but can appear in the Physical Realm. Whether that is of their own accord or caused by Cognitive/Spiritual pressure from belief isn't really stated.

Is it really that far of a stretch to then say that this Cognitive thing can also have a Physical form?

But then I guess by that argument, how much different from a Spren would that make her?

[Shardlet he/him]

Shards can manifest physically.  Otherwise, the mistspirit could not have stabbed Elend.  This was a physical interaction. 

[Miyabi he/him]

Shards can manifest physically.  Otherwise, the mistspirit could not have stabbed Elend.  This was a physical interaction.

Exactly. So the odds of Cultivation being a Shardpool and the Physical form isn't as far fetched as people are trying to make it sound.

[Vortaan he/him]

Shards can manifest physically.  Otherwise, the mistspirit could not have stabbed Elend.  This was a physical interaction. 

 

Kind of follows my point though. Preservation had leached off a large amount of his power, into the Well, at least a few beads of Lerasium, and into humanity in general. With all of that, he was only able to create a misty, half-physical avatar. Compare that to Vin, who had the majority of Preservation's power and was basically vaporized by it. There's also a quote somewhere about Investiture tearing troughs in people in larger amounts... I'm not great at finding quotes, but that one in particular makes me think that if someone was holding a whole Shard's worth of power, then manifesting a physical body might be beyond them.

 

I'll concede though that if Cultivation did leech off a lot of her power, into spren or a Well-type arrangement or something, that it would be more likely.

[happyman he/him]

Kind of follows my point though. Preservation had leached off a large amount of his power, into the Well, at least a few beads of Lerasium, and into humanity in general. With all of that, he was only able to create a misty, half-physical avatar. Compare that to Vin, who had the majority of Preservation's power and was basically vaporized by it. There's also a quote somewhere about Investiture tearing troughs in people in larger amounts... I'm not great at finding quotes, but that one in particular makes me think that if someone was holding a whole Shard's worth of power, then manifesting a physical body might be beyond them.

 

I'll concede though that if Cultivation did leech off a lot of her power, into spren or a Well-type arrangement or something, that it would be more likely.

 

I actually believe that the Shards can manifest their physical bodies in the physical realm.  After all, the bit about tearing physical troughs through them has to be somewhat metaphysical.  Vin's body came back in one piece after she killed Ruin.  Leras and Ruin's bodies also came back after their respective deaths.  In addition, we had the question of how, exactly, Ruin had to get the Atium, and were told he had to do it physically...somehow.  I suspect that with some focus and energy, a shard can manifest itself physically with its body.  The properties of that manifestation are a good question, though.

[Miyabi he/him]

Just because there is a Physical Realm representation doesn't mean that all of the power of the Shard is in a real Physical. In fact part of this theory is that there's a Shardpool. I large chunk of power/energy would be going towards that as well.

[Vortaan he/him]

Just because there is a Physical Realm representation doesn't mean that all of the power of the Shard is in a real Physical. In fact part of this theory is that there's a Shardpool. I large chunk of power/energy would be going towards that as well.

 

I suppose I'm seeing the Well as substantially different than a normal Shardpool in that it functioned as a prison and was imbued with more of Preservation's power to allow that to be the case. I still don't like the idea of Shards manifesting physically though. Every case we have is either a Shard being weakened substantially or a Shardholder dying and leaving it behind. (Side note, this could be why having Ati and Leras' bodies could be useful for Sazed. Maybe by studying them he could figure out how to manifest physically while maintaining his powers).

 

The part I really don't like about Shards manifesting physically is... well, human bodies can take a lot of punishment in the Cosmere, depending on what magic system you're talking about, but no one is actually factually immortal. It adds to every non-Shardic villain that he is, in fact, some type of human and if the hero is clever enough to find the weak point, the villian is no more powerful than an average person. But Shards, manifested into actual human bodies... how do you fight that? Or kill it? Or frankly even resist it? The loophole that "Oh, well they are human now so they can't use their powers" is just bad writing, not in line with how the Cosmere has worked so far. The other alternative of "Oh, well, they have a weakness and normal people can defeat them THIS way" kind of trivializes Shards. So it's a personal preference to me, backed by a bit of theory. 

 

I think I'd have a problem if a Shard could manifest fully on ANY realm, actually... Odium strolling through Shadesmar bothers me as much as Cultivation hanging around Shinovar.

[Shardlet he/him]

IIRC, the Well itself wasn't the prison, but rather, the prison was at the well (as seen by the cloud of smoke that Vin and Elend saw there).  The well was an accumutation of the power of Preservation.  When Vin released the power, the rush of power broke the prison. 

 

I don't have a problem with a Shard manifesting physically.  What could they do in physical form (ultimately) that they could could not do in some other form?  Kill you?  If they wanted/needed to, couldn't they kill you, regardless of what form they are manifesting as.  Ruin couldn't do it because he was incomplete as a result of not having his 'body'.  

 

I doubt a physical manifestation would be necessarily accompanied by a substantial weakness that could be exploited by humans(oids?).  Other Shards, perhaps.  Even in Ruin's weakened state, he was not able to be harmed by humans.  All they could do was frustrate his plans.  It took Vin-Shard (Vinservation? PreserVin?  ) to kill him.

[Vortaan he/him]

IIRC, the Well itself wasn't the prison, but rather, the prison was at the well (as seen by the cloud of smoke that Vin and Elend saw there).  The well was an accumutation of the power of Preservation.  When Vin released the power, the rush of power broke the prison. 

 

I don't have a problem with a Shard manifesting physically.  What could they do in physical form (ultimately) that they could could not do in some other form?  Kill you?  If they wanted/needed to, couldn't they kill you, regardless of what form they are manifesting as.  Ruin couldn't do it because he was incomplete as a result of not having his 'body'.  

 

I doubt a physical manifestation would be necessarily accompanied by a substantial weakness that could be exploited by humans(oids?).  Other Shards, perhaps.  Even in Ruin's weakened state, he was not able to be harmed by humans.  All they could do was frustrate his plans.  It took Vin-Shard (Vinservation? PreserVin?  ) to kill him.

 

This is kind of my point though. Either they are invincible, or they are vulnerable through some kind of corny method. I don't see many other possibilities for Shards manifesting as a physical body. I don't know, maybe I'm the minority here but if, for example, the Odium plotline ends with an actual physical fight between Rayse and... I don't know, Sazed or whoever, I'll feel a little let down. 

 

More on topic, does anyone else think that a consciousness that has become accustomed to a Shard, like for example Sazed's now, would do at all well limited to a physical body? Wouldn't that limit awareness? Function follows form, after all... limiting oneself in a physical body, one would have to follow at least some rules of being in a physical body, no?

[Miyabi he/him]

I think you're interpreting what is trying to be said incorrectly. The Physical Form at the well isn't Cultivation's goal. Like, she's not trying to create a Physical Form for use in battle, but more as a way to interact with humans on Roshar in a way they understand. You see that people seem to talk very normally about going to see the Nightwatcher. It's met with a bit of hesitation and suspicion, but as compared to say Dalinar's visions, or hearing Ruin's voice it is a much more ... comfortable interaction for humans to relate to.

Shards being the way they are seem to need humans to better affect the world because of their lack of Physical form within the world. I feel this is just a way for her to interact with humanity. We also see Sazed use Marsh for a similar purpose. A way to interact with people which is less jarring than "God talked to me in my dreams."

[happyman he/him]

This is kind of my point though. Either they are invincible, or they are vulnerable through some kind of corny method. I don't see many other possibilities for Shards manifesting as a physical body. I don't know, maybe I'm the minority here but if, for example, the Odium plotline ends with an actual physical fight between Rayse and... I don't know, Sazed or whoever, I'll feel a little let down. 

 

More on topic, does anyone else think that a consciousness that has become accustomed to a Shard, like for example Sazed's now, would do at all well limited to a physical body? Wouldn't that limit awareness? Function follows form, after all... limiting oneself in a physical body, one would have to follow at least some rules of being in a physical body, no?

 

It's interesting to wonder why we feel that having a physical body would limit a shard.  After all, I have a cell phone, but it doesn't limit me in any significant ways.  It also doesn't open up any really serious weaknesses to me that aren't almost trivially countered.  (Just don't answer the phone if you don't want to!  Block calls if it really becomes important.)  I don't see why manifesting a body would be anything more than a trivial exercise of power to a Shard.  After all, they wouldn't be just a body, even during the manifestation.

[Shardlet he/him]

Also, what is the difference between being substantially invincible in a physical body and being substantially invincible not in a physical body.  As seen in Mistborn, their direct awareness can only be focused in one place at a time, but they can shift that focus at a whim.  If a Shard wants to, and has the capability to, kill you, they could do it without a physical manifestation. 

 

Consider, a physical manifestation of a Shard need not be human in form or appearance.  And, even if it is human in appearance, it need not be human in substance.  It really only needs to be a puppet of sorts.  This would enable them to interact with humans in a way that is relatable and comfortable like Miyabi is talking about, but not limit them substantialy in any way. 

[Vortaan he/him]

I think I'm just going to concede the point and move on, as I seem to be in the minority here. Although the question I'd ask would be if this is so easy for Shards to do, why does Sazed need the kandra and Marsh? Couldn't he just make a ton of varying bodies to inhabit for a brief moment and nudge things along in the directions he wants?

[Gaelan he/him]

Maybe Sazed is limited by his shard's intent. I think we had a discussion of that a week ago or so.

 

Remember all, by the way, that this is just pure speculation, we will have to wait until we can argue with ideas based on confirmed things. Maybe we will see something of this in WoR, but I don't think so. Four one-thousand-paged books means lots of information, but maybe we don't take anything until the second arc. Cultivation hasn't had a major paper (for what we know, again) in TWoK.

[Shardlet he/him]

You may well be correct Vortaan.  We are just tossing around things here.  As for Sazed it could be a number of things.  Two of which could be he is new and perhaps does not know how to manifest physically, it may not have even occurred to him to try.  Also, it may simply be that he chooses not to.  Personally, I am just not ready to ascribe a lot of limitations on the Shards yet since we have only a very little bit of info.

[Guest Alaxel]

When I read the book, the impression that I got was that the Nightwatcher's blessing and curse were one in the same. Take Dalinar for example. We don't know verbatim what he asked of the Nightwatcher, but we do know that it caused him to lose all memories of his wife. Perhaps he was too ambiguous in his request and simply asked something to the effect of, "Take away the pain memories of my wife cause me."

Perhaps it is in the Nightwatcher's nature to grant these blessings in such a way as to meet the explicit terms of the request while also granting them in as malicious a way as possible.

Or perhaps the Nightwatcher, though sentient, is an alien sentience. At least, alien in regards to the workings of the human mind; it's passions, motivations, and intentions. Maybe it truly attempts to be benevolent and any perceived curse is the result of a failing on the part of the human, not the Nightwatcher. For all we know, with Dalinar, the Nightwatcher was like, "Memories of your wife cause you pain and you wish for release from the pain they cause? Very well, I'll just take away your memories. Makes sense to me."

This kind of Nightwatcher theory resembles a moral as old as stories themselves: Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Alaxel

[Isomere]

I've been theorizing here that cultivation has been corrupted by Odium. The odd blend of granting a request mixed with a curse doesn't really seem to fit with our concept of cultivation, but if you add a bit of spite I think it makes more sense.

[Gaelan he/him]

Well, I don't know if this can be done, but can someone tell me the new information (related to the nightwatcher theory only) given in the steelhunt by pm? I just want to include it (as a spoiler, but anyways) in my main post so we have a more exact theory and knowledge about what the Nightwatcher (and Cultivation) is.

 

Thank you.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Gaelan

[Shardlet he/him]

It doesn't have much to do with Odium.  But, here is a theory about Cultivation and the Nightwatcher based on Steelhunt info.

[Gaelan he/him]

Thank you, I'll use it together with the info that Brandon gave me with the emperor's soul book.