Rating the metal arts

[Pechvarry]

Since the inception of the Create your perfect crew! thread, I've been thinking about how not all combos are created equal. That's pretty obvious, in fact, so I figured I'd take a stab at quantifying them to a (purposefully vague) degree.

How I'm ranking these: I'm using a broken 3-point scale to measure the effects of Allomancy and Feruchemy. I say "broken" because I have Gnats as 0 points (making a 4th value). I originally tried 5- and 10-point scales, but decided against them. It was nice to be able to put Gnats as 1 point on a 10 point scale, but it quickly started feeling like I was doing balance work for a video game. By focusing on broad swaths, I can preserve the sense that a weaker power can be used in a very powerful way. Marasi is the poster child for what I'm striving for: people can have powers that are objectively weak, but still useful in the right scenario.

I would eventually like to plug these values into a Mistborn RPG, but I will need to redesign a decent amount of character creation before I get there.

Compounding presents an issue. I couldn't keep to a 3-point system for Compounding, as it just wasn't good enough. For example, Gold with a 3-point Compound cost is still only 7 points. Steel would need a 1 point Compound cost to be even in power with it, which is not a good precedent to set for the other metals. Instead, I decided on a good-looking total cost for Steel, made Gold at least equal that amount, and started comparing the rest. What it ends up looking like is a sort of 10-point scale of overall power, with Gold and Steel sitting near the top. So when you look at the Compound values, remember that you have to think about the overall results: If you can Compound Cadmium for infinite breath, are you really that much better off than a normal Pewter Misting?

With the Metal Arts page handy, the list so far:

 

Metal     |Allomancy|Feruchemy|Compounding| Total |
Steel     |    3    |     3   |    3      |   9   |
Iron      |    2    |     3   |    2      |   7   |
Pewter    |    3    |     2   |    2      |   7   |
Tin       |    2    |     2   |    6      |   6   |
Zinc      |    2    |     2   |    3      |   7   |
Brass     |    2    |     1   |    3      |   6   |
Copper    |    2    |     2   |    1      |   5   |
Bronze    |    2    |     1   |    2      |   5   |
Gold      |    1    |     3   |    5      |   9   |
Electrum  |    2    |     1   |    1      |   4   |
Cadmium   |    1    |     1   |    2      |   4   |
Bendalloy |    3    |     1   |    1      |   5   |
Duralumin |    0*   |     2   |    4      |   6   |
Aluminum  |    0    |     1   |    1      |   2   |
Nicrosil  |    2    |     1   |    2      |   5   |
Chromium  |    2    |     2   |    5      |   9   |
*Add 2 if the Duralumin Gnat can burn another metal

Enjoy my home-made table, since table tags apparently don't exist. Please tell me what values you disagree with, and what values you would use.

Of particular note, I'd like feedback on allomantic Electrum (feels like it could be a 1, 2, or 3), feruchemic zinc, and all the feruchemic properties we've yet to really see.

Once I'm happy with the 1st 2 columns of the chart, I'll focus on the Compounding values.

Don't ask me why my Code is SUPER colorful. It wasn't me.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Aluminum compounding is pretty useless, according to Brandon.  Should probably be free.

 

 

You should also add a total column

Edited May 26, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Pechvarry]

Aluminum compounding is pretty useless, according to Brandon.  Should probably be free.

I lowered it to 1, for 2 points total. I will probably end up lowering it to 0 eventually, but for now I want to focus on the first 2 columns.

 

You should also add a total column

Great call. Done.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Brass compounding could be pretty cool, since you're protected from the side effects.  Want to be the human torch now's your chance.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Brass does melt at about 900-1000 degrees Celsius, so you might want some embedded spikes if you really want to go all out.

[skaa he/him]

Well, Miles would agree with your ranking for Electrum Allomancy (according to him, Gold < Electrum < Iron/Steel). I'd imagine that watching your Electrum shadows would be very useful when running from gunmen, for example, but I'd still prefer Atium for direct confrontations (e.g. fist fights) because there'd only be one shadow to watch (your enemy's Atium shadow).

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Brass does melt at about 900-1000 degrees Celsius, so you might want some embedded spikes if you really want to go all out.

Just swallow your whole reserve.  It's not going to escape your stomach.

[SwiftSteel he/him]

For your feedback on electrum, I suppose overall, I would agree with it being a two. 

 

I think the compounding for zinc could be higher.  You would be able to think at least ten times as fast (depending on how much you've stored) and I think that would be helpful in almost any situation.  You wouldn't have the same precise memory as an Archivist, but it would be somewhere close, IMO.  The first two collumns are good

 

If you're just talking about the benefits of drawing the attribute, steel is good, but if you want to include the times when one is also storing their attribute, I'm not quite sure if Feruchemal steel should be the same value.  The same goes with pewter, zince, gold, cadmium, bendalloy, and chromium.  If you're just talking about the benefits though, then I think you're good.

[Pechvarry]

I guess the basic way to read my scale is:

1 point: This ability is incredibly weak and situational. At least you're not a gnat.
2 point: No one's ever going to be embarrassed to have this ability.  Though it's not a show-stealer. It's pretty much always useful.
3 point: This is the ability other Metalborns wish they had.

For Feruchemy I mostly focused on the benefit. For example, a simple Steel Ferring has an alarmingly high probability of being able to kill a full Mistborn. This means it should be considered a first class skill. If you could get the effect from burning a metal, my 3 point scale would break. Luckily, we have a Compounding column for that.

Some random thoughts:

• I was originally inclined to put Fe-Iron as a 2, but it being beneficial when tapping or storing really seals it as a 3, for me. I should perhaps do the same for Fe-Duralumin, as stored/tapped Connection likely both have great uses.
• Fe-Zinc (Mental speed), I want to put as a 3 and say amazing top-notch ability, but then I remember Sazed tapping his mental speed while beaten. Watching in slow motion and completely incapable of saving himself. This is why I hesitate to make it too high of a Compounding Cost. My old go-to of comparing it to a Thug says he's way more valuable to the team, but is he more than twice as valuable as the Thug?
• Fe-Chromium (Fortune) would've been a 3, but I really think there's no good time to Store the attribute for later. So I put it at a 2, but gave it a sky-high Compound Cost. I honestly should consider upping it further.
• Not sure if 2 points is enough for Al-Duralumin in the instance the character can burn another metal, but not really important for this exercise.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Phantom Monstrosity]

And, ofc, different combinations (gold+aluminuminds maybe,or steel + ironminds) can get synergies as well.

[Pechvarry]

It's, perhaps, folly on my part, but I intentionally turned a blind eye to synergies.  The 3-point scale means each point covers a much larger spectrum, and it's my hope that all the different synergies end up in more or less the right spot.  For example, a Soother would probably rather store Connection than Strength, but they're both 4-point twinborns.  I'm ok with this for the same reason that a Cadmium Misting like Marasi is almost always better than a Gold misting, but they're both 1-point abilities.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Also, nicrosil compounders without any other powers are kinda useless without anything else to do with that investiture.

[Kadrok she/her]

Also, nicrosil compounders without any other powers are kinda useless without anything else to do with that investiture.

Unless my theory that you can use Nicrosilminds to fuel allomancy (and therefore fuel your Nicrobursting) is accurate! But even if it isn't, you can pour the contents of your Nicrosilmind into someone else's Metalmind, annihilating their charges (assuming you can touch an opponents metalmind). This makes Nicrosil-Nicrosil and interesting offensive choice as you can throw off their allomantic abilities with a sudden burst of power, and wipe their metalminds, both if you can touch them. For these reasons I think your fe-Nicro and compounding-Nicro need to be higher.

I also feel as if compounding mental speed is underrated... having 'time to think' in even the fastest situation strikes me as an amazing ability. Finally, is the aluminum headband business what is keeping Zinc/Brass at a 2?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Unless my theory that you can use Nicrosilminds to fuel allomancy (and therefore fuel your Nicrobursting) is accurate!

Oh wow, then you could touch some nicrosil... and pretend that you were burning nicrosil.  That'll save you a few bucks, yeah.

 

Wait, you'd have to burn some nicrosil to compound the investiture to begin with.  Ignore that.

 

But even if it isn't, you can pour the contents of your Nicrosilmind into someone else's Metalmind, annihilating their charges (assuming you can touch an opponents metalmind). This makes Nicrosil-Nicrosil and interesting offensive choice as you can throw off their allomantic abilities with a sudden burst of power, and wipe their metalminds, both if you can touch them. For these reasons I think your fe-Nicro and compounding-Nicro need to be higher.

 

An ability that requires you to physically get your hands on somebody's metalminds... in a world with guns?  I don't see compounding really bringing anything to the table with it.

 

And that assumes that you can even START compounding to begin with.  You don't have any other metalminds to pull investiture out of, after all, so you'd need some external source to even begin.

[Kadrok she/her]

An ability that requires you to physically get your hands on somebody's metalminds... in a world with guns?  I don't see compounding really bringing anything to the table with it.

You'd have to use team work, perhaps a team Lurcher behind a riotshield pulling all metal into the shield, negating bullets.

 

And that assumes that you can even START compounding to begin with.  You don't have any other metalminds to pull investiture out of, after all, so you'd need some external source to even begin.

You'd need to pay a Nicroburst to give you a surge (you can store bursts of power caused by duralumin or nicrosil) or figure out a way to draw the power from the mists. However, if my theory is correct and Allomancy and Nicrosil are compatible, you could also potentially burn your Allomantic metal, and store the flow of investiture which would otherwise power your ability.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

In which case... Dude you already have their metalminds. Ruining them is fun and spiteful, but won't offer any additional tactical advantage.

[Kadrok she/her]

In which case... Dude you already have their metalminds. Ruining them is fun and spiteful, but won't offer any additional tactical advantage.

I see what you mean, and was going to retort that you wouldn't have their pierced ones, but grabbing your opponents ears seems... clunky. Nicrosil Compounder! With Ear-Grabbing POWER!

 

I will concede that until we get more details on how it works with Allomancy, Nicrosil Feruchemy doesn't seem that useful and is presently deserving of its 1 rating.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm actually not even sure a nicrosil ferring can ruin metalminds that aren't nicrosil, either.  The RPG assumes full feruchemists, after all, so a character would be assumed to have access to that feruchemical metal. 

 

Regardless, compounding nicrosil brings essentially nothing to the table when you don't have other feruchemical powers.  You're basically in the same position as a duralumin gnat.  It certainly isn't worth +4.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Kadrok she/her]

I'm actually not even sure a nicrosil ferring can ruin metalminds that aren't nicrosil, either.  The RPG assumes full feruchemists, after all, so a character would be assumed to have access to that feruchemical metal. 

I see what you're saying, but given that the stored investiture is neutral (ie it's not flavoured as Strength, or Mental Speed or whatever) I would think you still could overwrite other metalminds. Being able to access that metal in other contexts doesn't seem that relevant given that you're essentially pouring raw power into the same place where they've stored whatever trait... a place you couldn't access even if you also had that particular Feruchemical ability (that is to say, even if you can store mental speed in a piece of Zinc, you can't access another's Zinc store, and if you share the metalmind with them it is stored separately to theirs... thus having Sparker as well as Soulbearer powers don't seem particularly relevant in the context of burning out someone else's metal stores). That said, I can see how it could be argued the other way, and so I await WoB or the Alloy of Law supplement to the MAG to clarify this.

 

Regardless, compounding nicrosil brings essentially nothing to the table when you don't have other feruchemical powers.  You're basically in the same position as a duralumin gnat.  It certainly isn't worth +4.

As stated, I think it's too early to assume that Soulbearer is a Gnat power, but I do agree that compounding it isn't worth +4

[Phantom Monstrosity]

By the way, looks like double tin isn't getting listed as +3, though the total's right.

 

Being able to do all spook's savant stuff, except better AND live a normal life by storing the excess senses?  That's just awesome.

[Pechvarry]

Finally, is the aluminum headband business what is keeping Zinc/Brass at a 2?

Zinc/brass isn't mind control.  If every Soother/Rioter were capable of dominating Koloss, this would be a 3.  

 

Looking at Vin, Tin saves her life far more than most metals, but I still think Pewter and Steel are "stronger".  And I admit, I think combat monsters should be harder to make than master manipulators. 

 

A lot of my Compounding values are totally off.  There's no way a Tin Compounder should be better rated than a Zinc Compounder (whose constant super-thinking is probably better than Atium, because they'd be able to pull the Vin "tell me my future" trick).

 

Going through them currently.  For now, I'm leaving Steel/Gold/Chromium as 9-point totals (these are each worth at least 3 Thugs in a fight), thinking Duralumin is good at 6 (worth 3 Soothers?), and I'm really having difficulty with Tin (see below).

 

One thing that's been eating me about Compounding is that Wax thinks in AoL, something to the extent of "from what he understood, once you started compounding, it was dangerous to stop."  This makes me think a Tin Compounder would end up with many of the drawbacks of Spook.  He'd just have the added benefit of being able to store traits to offset those drawbacks.  This also makes me think Zinc Compounding could perhaps result in serious brain damage.

[Nepene he/him]

I'd probably make copper compounding less high (it's not too useful for you) I'd raise nicrosil allomancy up a point (you can supercharge companions and disable enemies) I'd take gold down to 0 points since it's not that useful and can be actively useless if used wrong, I'd probably raise iron compounding a point as, like with alloy of law, iron feru plus any metal controlling metal is super useful. You can pull anything to you, no one can resist. Guns are now useless. That is hard to counter.

 

Would you get any benefit from tin compounding? It's easy enough to store tin, it lasts ages, and there's not a lot you can't do with huge amounts of tin that you can't do with lots of tin.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Nepene

[Pechvarry]

I messed with some Compounding numbers. In the instances where we're not sure what a power does, I'm shying towards "average-to-good." Fixed tin, upped Zinc. I'm thinking Pewter should maybe be 8 points total instead of 7, as should Zinc. Iron is currently 7, I'd consider going up to 8, but I don't think it's a miracle worker like most of the big compounders. The ability to have an extremely heavy tug doesn't help you against The Vanishers, for example.

-Personally, I'd love to be able to burn Gold (I would love a chance to interview the Me of 10 years ago), and I think Miles was onto something when he used it as a way to "alloy" himself. This is at least as good as the ability to be a willful Manic Depressive (Feruchemic Electrum), so I still intend to leave it as a 1.

-EVERY Compound ability should have at least a 1 point cost. My belief is that, even if you're not getting use out of your 1000% return-on-investment, the ability to sidestep a Feruchemic cost is still worth at least the 1 point.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Would you get any benefit from tin compounding? It's easy enough to store tin, it lasts ages, and there's not a lot you can't do with huge amounts of tin that you can't do with lots of tin.

 

The benefits from using both allomancy and feruchemy should combine, so you'd probably be able to use them together and see the moons of Jupiter with your naked eyes.  Beyond that, you can flare allomantic tin to a really high level and store the heightened scent/hearing/touch/whatever, leaving only sight (removing one of the big disadvantages of tin - the lack of selectivity). 

 

You could probably use flared normal tin + hearingtinminds and pull off the superman 'hear everyone in the city, pick the one conversation you care about' trick.  And you know how Spook was able to go all Zatoichi, and detect stuff from air currents?  Do that, except better.

 

And yeah, being a tin savant has a bunch of major problems, but all of those solved if you can store senses in a tinmind. 

Edited May 30, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Nepene he/him]

The benefits from using both allomancy and feruchemy should combine, so you'd probably be able to use them together and see the moons of Jupiter with your naked eyes.  Beyond that, you can flare allomantic tin to a really high level and store the heightened scent/hearing/touch/whatever, leaving only sight (removing one of the big disadvantages of tin - the lack of selectivity). 

 

You could probably use flared normal tin + hearingtinminds and pull off the superman 'hear everyone in the city, pick the one conversation you care about' trick.  And you know how Spook was able to go all Zatoichi, and detect stuff from air currents?  Do that, except better.

 

And yeah, being a tin savant has a bunch of major problems, but all of those solved if you can store senses in a tinmind. 

 

Seeing the moons of Jupiter is not something that most want to do on a regular basis. You could do that by saving up for a few hours anyway. It's a fairly weak situation ability at best, and in game there's little reason to regularly be staring at the stars.

 

Having feruchemy and allomancy tin together is useful for the reason you describe, but you don't need to compound it to gain that benefit.

 

You could use flared tin and hearing tin minds together without compounding. And you'll be able to hear a lot with them working together. This is for the mistborn rpg. There aren't that many situations where you need to use flared tin and lots of feru tin together for a long period of time, enough that you'd need compounding.

 

You can solve the issues of being a tin savant with tin, but you can also save it with pewter, or gold likely- the third column is about the benefits of compounding.

 

On gold- Sanderson.

 

Being a Gold Misting is... well, in most people’s eyes, it’s about as useful as an

Aluminum Gnat. It does have its uses — or so Miles thinks in The Alloy of Law, but

the practical application has more to do with roleplaying and characterization

than hard and fast game rules.

 

It's useful for roleplaying and characterisation, but doesn't offer you game rule benefits. While it can be useful to show off your character, it's not something I'd really factor into the value of a character. It also hurts your willpower whenever you burn it, making you more vulnerable to attack.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Nepene