Enhancing Allomancy with Feruchemy

[kroen]

In the wiki page about compounding it says there might be a way to enhance Allomancy with Feruchemy, and I think I figured it out: If you're a Twinborn, and your Feruchemical metal is Nicrosil, then if you tap investiture while burning your Allomantic metal it would be more powerful. Thoughts? 

Edited April 27, 2013 by kroen

[KChan she/her]

I'm pretty sure that burning nicrosil only affects Allomancy, at least when we're dealing with its straightforward, typical use. The end result you're referring to would be what you get via Compounding.

 

Reverse Compounding, as the admins have taken to calling it (please note that this is a FANON term) would have the opposite effect: instead of the end result being Feruchemical in nature, it would be Allomantic. For example, using Feruchemical and Allomantic steel together to achieve more powerful Pushes.

 

None of us have been able to figure out a solid theory on how it's actually done, though. I think the closest we got was possibly involving Feruchemical nicrosil somehow, but nothing beyond that.

 

EDIT: Somehow I completely misread what you said. Sorry about that.

Edited April 27, 2013 by KChan

[kroen]

Umm I was talking about tapping Nicrosil, not burning it...

[KChan she/her]

See my above post. ^^; I misread what you wrote and edited when I realized my mistake.

[kroen]

I think my theory is pretty soild. I mean, we don't know what tapping investiture does, it could very well be useless on its own but while tapped it could enhance the metal you're burning, whatever it is.

 

Edit: Maybe that's how TLR's soothing was so powerful.

 

Edit 2: Actually, this is a much better theory that makes much more sense than mine.

Edited April 27, 2013 by kroen

[KChan she/her]

We had discussed that before as well, yes. The problem is, is that the only way? Can a double-metal Twinborn compound both ways, or does nicrosil have to be involved? That's something we don't know yet.

[Galavantes]

Nicrosil compounding was pretty much my theory too. Although TLR is also confirmed to be a savant in pretty much every metal. So in terms of power we're talking he's at least Elend's strength, plus the possibility of a strength upgrade from the well, plus possibly having ingested more than one bead of Larasium, PLUS being a savant. These combinations reasonably put him at the power level to achieve the things we saw him do.

(Although I still think Kel could have put up a better fight)

[Voidus]

Yeah I think feruchemical Nicrosil is the generally accepted way that it could happen, although not sure if that works for TLR since he never talked about it at any of the caches and no one else new about it.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1729-a-late-breaking-report/

We asked some questions about the Lord Ruler, like if he knew about chromium and nicrosil. Brandon said he knew about those metals, and then also said "The Lord Ruler knew a lot of things that no one knows." All right then.

I continued to ask about the Lord Ruler and his Allomantic strength. There's an upper bound to the amount of power you can get from being a savant. Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin. He implied that there was a way to Compound to enhance Allomancy. (Note, we have discussed this on the forums a while back. This isn't news.)

Edited April 28, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Warpsmith]

I know this is a necro and all but well it was more or less the right title for an hypothesis of mine(that people here might already have formulated and debunked given all the theorizing going on around here but eh just in case it was not theorized already...)

 

So from this WoB:

 

 

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

 

Source

 

We know how compounding works, basically by cheating the system into making Preservation's power giving you more of"you"(be it health, speed...whatever)instead of the regular power the metal you burn is supposed to give you.

 

So why shouldn't it be possible to do the reverse of this: IE tricking the system into turning some of"you" you stored in a metal mind into whatever power the metal you metalmind is made of gives an Allomancer.

 

Now the trick question is how to do this: my suggestion would tapping in your metal mind while burning the corresponding allomantic metal basically making the system go"wait more power ? Where's it from ? Oh never mind let's just make it do the same thing I am already doing" thus making possible things like the famous TLR Soothing.

 

Seems simple right ? So you might ask why this process is not widely known on Scadrial: easy, Twinborn themselves are an extremely rare thing among the population, those sharing the same Allomantic and Feruchemic metals even rarer. So the number of people actually able to do so is rather limited and among those there are some, like Miles for instance, who would have no interest at all in this technique as their allomantic application of compounding would be a lot less useful to them.

 

In fact even regular compounding is not a well known thing as showed with Marasi who studied in university with Miles being of of the subjects of her interest and her still unaware of the feruchemical compounding mechanics, which seems to indicate that aside people knowing compounders personnally and hypothetical people whose field of study is the understanding of metalic arts nobody knows of this, 

 

This hypothesis would also explain why all types of compounders are judged dangerous despite some seeming to have lackluster Feruchemical abilities to enhance(though this would also make Pewter and Steel Componders even more terrifying)

Edited October 20, 2015 by Warpsmith

[Voidus]

I know this is a necro and all but well it was more or less the right title for an hypothesis of mine(that people here might already have formulated and debunked given all the theorizing going on around here but eh just in case it was not theorized already...)

 

So from this WoB:

 

 

 

Source

 

We know how compounding works, basically by cheating the system into making Preservation's power giving you more of"you"(be it health, speed...whatever)instead of the regular power the metal you burn is supposed to give you.

 

So why shouldn't it be possible to do the reverse of this: IE tricking the system into turning some of"you" you stored in a metal mind into whatever power the metal you metalmind is made of gives an Allomancer.

 

Now the trick question is how to do this: my suggestion would tapping in your metal mind while burning the corresponding allomantic metal basically making the system go"wait more power ? Where's it from ? Oh never mind let's just make it do the same thing I am already doing" thus making possible things like the famous TLR Soothing.

 

Seems simple right ? So you might ask why this process is not widely known on Scadrial: easy, Twinborn themselves are an extremely rare thing among the population, those sharing the same Allomantic and Feruchemic metals even rarer. So the number of people actually able to do so is rather limited and among those there are some, like Miles for instance, who would have no interest at all in this technique as their allomantic application of compounding would be a lot less useful to them.

 

In fact even regular compounding is not a well known thing as showed with Marasi who studied in university with Miles being of of the subjects of her interest and her still unaware of the feruchemical compounding mechanics, which seems to indicate that aside people knowing compounders personnally and hypothetical people whose field of study is the understanding of metalic arts nobody knows of this, 

 

This hypothesis would also explain why all types of compounders are judged dangerous despite some seeming to have lackluster Feruchemical abilities to enhance(though this would also make Pewter and Steel Componders even more terrifying)

I doubt it's that simple, the point is that feruchemically charging a metal actually changes it, giving it a charge of another trait so that when you try to burn it the power gets funneled through that, you'd need to somehow allomantically charge a metalmind to create an analogous reverse.

[Oudeis he/him]

I know this is a necro and all but well it was more or less the right title for an hypothesis of mine(that people here might already have formulated and debunked given all the theorizing going on around here but eh just in case it was not theorized already...)

 

So from this WoB:

 

 

 

Source

 

We know how compounding works, basically by cheating the system into making Preservation's power giving you more of"you"(be it health, speed...whatever)instead of the regular power the metal you burn is supposed to give you.

 

So why shouldn't it be possible to do the reverse of this: IE tricking the system into turning some of"you" you stored in a metal mind into whatever power the metal you metalmind is made of gives an Allomancer.

 

Now the trick question is how to do this: my suggestion would tapping in your metal mind while burning the corresponding allomantic metal basically making the system go"wait more power ? Where's it from ? Oh never mind let's just make it do the same thing I am already doing" thus making possible things like the famous TLR Soothing.

 

Seems simple right ? So you might ask why this process is not widely known on Scadrial: easy, Twinborn themselves are an extremely rare thing among the population, those sharing the same Allomantic and Feruchemic metals even rarer. So the number of people actually able to do so is rather limited and among those there are some, like Miles for instance, who would have no interest at all in this technique as their allomantic application of compounding would be a lot less useful to them.

 

In fact even regular compounding is not a well known thing as showed with Marasi who studied in university with Miles being of of the subjects of her interest and her still unaware of the feruchemical compounding mechanics, which seems to indicate that aside people knowing compounders personnally and hypothetical people whose field of study is the understanding of metalic arts nobody knows of this, 

 

This hypothesis would also explain why all types of compounders are judged dangerous despite some seeming to have lackluster Feruchemical abilities to enhance(though this would also make Pewter and Steel Componders even more terrifying)

 

I like the cut of your jib, and I like your proposed theory.

 

I doubt it's that simple, the point is that feruchemically charging a metal actually changes it, giving it a charge of another trait so that when you try to burn it the power gets funneled through that, you'd need to somehow allomantically charge a metalmind to create an analogous reverse.

 

Just to be clear, this is an assumption Voidus is making, not something we actually know.

[Voidus]

I like the cut of your jib, and I like your proposed theory.

 

 

Just to be clear, this is an assumption Voidus is making, not something we actually know.

Which part? We know the former and the latter kind of follows from that...

[Oudeis he/him]

No, as I've said about a dozen times, which you've read, and since your reply is always, "well they just seem different to me," we do not know that the latter follows the former. As I have said, over and over, and been ignored by you over and over, feruchemy changes the metal because feruchemy has the power to change the metal. Allomancy does not. Allomancy has the power to change the person, so it follows logically that when you do the other kind of compounding, you don't look for places/ways to change the metal, you look for places/ways to change the person, exactly like Warpsmith is suggesting.

 

You don't have to agree that it's the actual case. But it would help a lot if you would stop insisting that your speculation is the only valid interpretation.

 

Warpsmith: For the record, I still think my model is the correct one. But yours is valid.

[Voidus]

No, as I've said about a dozen times, which you've read, and since your reply is always, "well they just seem different to me," we do not know that the latter follows the former. As I have said, over and over, and been ignored by you over and over, feruchemy changes the metal because feruchemy has the power to change the metal. Allomancy does not. Allomancy has the power to change the person, so it follows logically that when you do the other kind of compounding, you don't look for places/ways to change the metal, you look for places/ways to change the person, exactly like Warpsmith is suggesting.

 

You don't have to agree that it's the actual case. But it would help a lot if you would stop insisting that your speculation is the only valid interpretation.

 

Warpsmith: For the record, I still think my model is the correct one. But yours is valid.

I don't believe I've ever said that but regardless that's irrelevant, it still isn't analogous by definition unless it follows the same path. I wasn't suggesting that's how it has to be, merely that if you want to create an analogous reverse you'd need to follow the same path. Feruchemy changes the person too (Arguably more-so than Allomancy which is half external) so that doesn't really follow.

It would help me a lot if you stopped putting words in my mouth.

[Oudeis he/him]

I've long wondered why you call this "reverse compounding." The reverse of compounding as we know it would be if you took a feruchemical attribute, modified it into an allomantic power, and shot that power at Preservation. Which is not what 'the other kind of compounding' is, if you'd take a moment and think about it logically.

 

It would help the rest of us a lot if you stopped asserting your own assumptions as fact, especially when they're based on a clearly flawed premise.

[Voidus]

I've long wondered why you call this "reverse compounding." The reverse of compounding as we know it would be if you took a feruchemical attribute, modified it into an allomantic power, and shot that power at Preservation. Which is not what 'the other kind of compounding' is, if you'd take a moment and think about it logically.

 

It would help the rest of us a lot if you stopped asserting your own assumptions as fact, especially when they're based on a clearly flawed premise.

It's a term people use for it, I certainly didn't invent it and honestly I prefer allomantic compounding personally but is this seriously going to turn into an argument of semantics?

Also:

 

 

 

Which is not what 'the other kind of compounding' is, if you'd take a moment and think about it logically.

 

 

It would help the rest of us a lot if you stopped asserting your own assumptions as fact, especially when they're based on a clearly flawed premise.

Not sure if you realized the inherent irony here but either way, if you don't mind could we keep the discussion civil? This is probably the one place on the internet that usually is.

[Warpsmith]

I doubt it's that simple, the point is that feruchemically charging a metal actually changes it, giving it a charge of another trait so that when you try to burn it the power gets funneled through that, you'd need to somehow allomantically charge a metalmind to create an analogous reverse.

First off why should it necessarily be an over complicated thing to accomplish? When you think about it "regular" compounding is rather simple to achieve, plus the very limited number of people capable of achieving it is enough of a limit unto itself.

 

As for your second point this part of a WoB proves you wrong:

 

 

 

Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

 

Source

 

As you can see Brandon outright says that if any other Allomancer burned the metal a Feruchemist charged they would get regular allomantic power out of it, in fact now that I think about it I seem to recall this being demonstrated when Vin Burns one of Sazed's metalminds.

 

What this means ? It means that the Metal's allomantic link has not been removed and is still there, which means what I am proposing is doable without having to "Allomantically charge" the Metalmind in any way as what's needed is already there.

 

 

Warpsmith: For the record, I still think my model is the correct one. But yours is valid.

 

Thank you, and of course you think your own model correct otherwise you would not have formulated it, but I am afraid I have to confess I am unaware of it, might you be kind enough to provide me a link to it ?

 

 

I've long wondered why you call this "reverse compounding." The reverse of compounding as we know it would be if you took a feruchemical attribute, modified it into an allomantic power, and shot that power at Preservation. Which is not what 'the other kind of compounding' is, if you'd take a moment and think about it logically.

 

It would help the rest of us a lot if you stopped asserting your own assumptions as fact, especially when they're based on a clearly flawed premise.

I get what you are saying however I feel it fits my own proposition: In compounding what you do is basically convert Preservation's Allomantic power into"you" power, so if I am right what you would be doing is converting"you"power into Allomantic Preservation power, besides there are lots of name and other terms in lot of places that are not thought about logically but still loosely fit and help people to know what you are talking about right away.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Warpsmith

[Voidus]

First off why should it necessarily be an over complicated thing to accomplish? When you thing about it "regular" coompounding is rather simple to achieve, plus the very limited number of people capable of achieving it is enough of a limit unto itself.

 

As for you second point this part of a WoB proves you wrong:

 

 

 

 

Source

 

As you can see Brandon outright says that if any other Allomancer burned the metal a Feruchemist charged they would get regular allomantic power out of it, in fact now that I think about it I seem to recall this being demonstrated when Vin Burns one of Sazed's metalminds.

Well the primary reason I'd say it should be more complicated is that we have yet to see anyone do it, we don't even know that that's what TLR was doing wheras we've seen multiple people compound feruchemical traits. But honestly it's because I think the key lies completely in Nicrosil used feruchemically, the MAG pretty much states that that's how you use feruchemy to power allomancy and it's pretty easy to see why, I don't see the need to come up with another solution to a problem that's basically already been solved is all.

That WoB doesn't prove anything wrong, just that the trait also needs to be yours in order to access it. And for reference when Vin tries she explicitly does sense another power source, albeit one she can't access, just like any feruchemist does when it's not their metalmind.

 

 

 

What this means ? It means that the Metal's allomantic link has not been removed and is still there, which means what I am proposing is doable without having to Allomantically "charge"the Metalmind in any way as what's needed is already there.

Yes it's still there, but in regular compounding the feruchemical charge overwrites it.

That part about not having to charge it doesn't follow, regular compounding still absolutely requires you to charge the metal first, the metal doesn't intrinsically have both powers in it, you have to give it the second. And I see no reason why this should be different in reverse.

 

[Oudeis he/him]

Wow. You seriously just cited the MAG. I don't even know how to respond.

 

EDIT: Just found this. So... are you just being deliberately provocative, now?

 

It's not semantics. You're calling it "reverse compounding" because, as you say, it has to be a perfect analogue and follow the same path. That is patently false. Analogues do not need to be perfect, and for that matter, no one ever said the other kind of compounding has to be an analogue to compounding as we know it. Pewter and steel, allomantically, are both physical metals, they're both Pushing. One is Internal, one is External. Does that make them perfect analogues to each other? Of course not. One is one of the fastest-burning metals; the other isn't even extremely slow-burning, it's middle-of-the-road. There are a hundred other small differences. You wouldn't call pewter "reverse steel". 100% of your argument saying that our models cannot be the case is because you keep asserting that the two kinds of compounding must be perfect analogues; there is nothing but your own assumptions to back this up, and you're never going to change your mind because you think it's so obvious that anyone disagreeing with you is wrong by definition. You keep calling it "reverse" and then you insist that because you call it reverse, it has to work exactly the same as known compounding. That's why it's not semantics. If I referred to feruchemy as "hot allomancy" and then kept insisting that because I call it hot allomancy it only works when the metals are heated, that's not an issue of semantics.

 

Also... seriously, look up the word analogue, if you're going to say something "isn't analogous by definition", whether or not you have a reason to assert that there's any reason we should believe it has to be analogous in any way. You may or may not believe you're remaining civil (you really aren't, by the way), but I would also like us to strive for ideals of academic and scholarly.

 

But I didn't come here to start our same arguments over again; Warpsmith is new to the forum, and I just wanted him to be aware that however confident you were, you were absolutely not the unified voice of the wisdom of the Shard.

 

Warp: In short, I believe if you burn a metal, for example steel, then you now have two traits within your body capable of being stored in a steelmind: "physical speed" or "allomantic steel". With a bendalloymind, you can choose whether to store nutrition or hydration. By the same mechanism, I expect you can choose whether to store physical speed, or the allomantic power of steel. Then it works like regular feruchemy. Later on you can draw out the trait, at any lesser or greater strength you wish. Very similar to your model. I hadn't considered your exact model before, and under such circumstances I would be perfectly willing to abandon mine if yours seemed more accurate. However, in this specific circumstance, I do not yet think so. I confess, in this instance the tie-breaker in my head is simply that I thought of mine and therefore I feel somewhat loyal to it.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Oudeis

[Voidus]

Wow. You seriously just cited the MAG. I don't even know how to respond.

The work that Brandon collaborated on? Yeah I guess I did, it's more canonical than citing nothing. And again, a little civility goes a long way.

 

It's not semantics. You're calling it "reverse compounding" because, as you say, it has to be a perfect analogue and follow the same path. That is patently false. Analogues do not need to be perfect, and for that matter, no one ever said the other kind of compounding has to be an analogue to compounding as we know it. Pewter and steel, allomantically, are both physical metals, they're both Pushing. One is Internal, one is External. Does that make them perfect analogues to each other? Of course not. One is one of the fastest-burning metals; the other isn't even extremely slow-burning, it's middle-of-the-road. There are a hundred other small differences. You wouldn't call pewter "reverse steel". 100% of your argument saying that our models cannot be the case is because you keep asserting that the two kinds of compounding must be perfect analogues; there is nothing but your own assumptions to back this up, and you're never going to change your mind because you think it's so obvious that anyone disagreeing with you is wrong by definition. You keep calling it "reverse" and then you insist that because you call it reverse, it has to work exactly the same as known compounding. That's why it's not semantics. If I referred to feruchemy as "hot allomancy" and then kept insisting that because I call it hot allomancy it only works when the metals are heated, that's not an issue of semantics.

 

Also... seriously, look up the word analogue, if you're going to say something "isn't analogous by definition", whether or not you have a reason to assert that there's any reason we should believe it has to be analogous in any way. You may or may not believe you're remaining civil (you really aren't, by the way), but I would also like us to strive for ideals of academic and scholarly.

 

But I didn't come here to start our same arguments over again; Warpsmith is new to the forum, and I just wanted him to be aware that however confident you were, you were absolutely not the unified voice of the wisdom of the Shard.

 

Warp: In short, I believe if you burn a metal, for example steel, then you now have two traits within your body capable of being stored in a steelmind: "physical speed" or "allomantic steel". With a bendalloymind, you can choose whether to store nutrition or hydration. By the same mechanism, I expect you can choose whether to store physical speed, or the allomantic power of steel. Then it works like regular feruchemy. Later on you can draw out the trait, at any lesser or greater strength you wish. Very similar to your model. I hadn't considered your exact model before, and under such circumstances I would be perfectly willing to abandon mine if yours seemed more accurate. However, in this specific circumstance, I do not yet think so. I confess, in this instance the tie-breaker in my head is simply that I thought of mine and therefore I feel somewhat loyal to it.

No, I'm calling it reverse compounding because that's what it's colloquially called. I wasn't on the naming committee or anything. Also I hold a patent on being false? I guess that's cool. But I'll refer you again to your own statement about confusing opinion with fact here.

I never said it has to be analogous, merely that if you're making a theory based on it being analogous then the fact that it's not analogous is potentially a bit of a problem.

I seriously don't know how to respond to the rest but I feel like you're getting a bit personal here so I'm gonna step back a bit, I'm not attacking anyone here or even necessarily disagreeing, I don't have much time for theorising at the moment so I mostly just add little pieces of advice now to help other people narrow their theory as best they can, I've never asserted that anything I say is the absolute, only canonical truth, I trust that people can usually tell the difference between opinion and fact but again neither of the things I stated that you responded to were in any way opinion, the first we have direct confirmation of, the second is that if you want a perfect analogue you need to do the same thing in reverse, I never stated that's how it has to be.

[Warpsmith]

Well the primary reason I'd say it should be more complicated is that we have yet to see anyone do it, we don't even know that that's what TLR was doing wheras we've seen multiple people compound feruchemical traits. But honestly it's because I think the key lies completely in Nicrosil used feruchemically, the MAG pretty much states that that's how you use feruchemy to power allomancy and it's pretty easy to see why, I don't see the need to come up with another solution to a problem that's basically already been solved is all.

That WoB doesn't prove anything wrong, just that the trait also needs to be yours in order to access it. And for reference when Vin tries she explicitly does sense another power source, albeit one she can't access, just like any feruchemist does when it's not their metalmind.

 

Yes it's still there, but in regular compounding the feruchemical charge overwrites it.

That part about not having to charge it doesn't follow, regular compounding still absolutely requires you to charge the metal first, the metal doesn't intrinsically have both powers in it, you have to give it the second. And I see no reason why this should be different in reverse.

 

I adressed the reasons as to why we have not seen anyone do it(or at least not presented as having been donne that way as I still believe this is how TLR did his famous Soothing) as for multiple people using the more known form of compounding we have see all of three exemples: TLR, Marsh and Miles

 

Of those three, One might have been using the method I am proposing here, the second we haven't seen in a fight in the AoL period at which point he could have learned to use method I am advocating here. And the third would not bother trying to do so given the lackluster power of his allomantic Gold compared to the awesome capability it gives when used feruchemically.

 

Now Concerning Nicrosil, you might be right that might be it's effect(or one of those)but I doubt it, just as I doubt Brandon would reveal Nicrosil's feruchemical power for something like the MAG which I do not even understand you mentioning here.

 

Concerning the WoB, well what it proves wrong is your claim that Feruchemy modifies the metal, which it doesn't it just stores something within it(true this could be considered a modification in some way so I can kinda see your point here)and does not change it's nature, just as a suitcase remains a suitcase wether it's empty or full.

 

As for your last point I just feel you are thinking in the wrong box: You keep thinking in the "Feruchemy box" which is irrelevant to what I propose here as here feruchemy is just a tool to get more power for Allomancy just as Allomancy is in regular compounding with it's rules not applying.

 

Here the hypothesis works by Allomantic rules in which Preservation' s power change the user to allow the allowmantic ability of the metal the user currently burn, so when the user burns his allmantic Metal he is different, thus when he taps one of his Metalmind made out of the same metal he is burning the system does not recognize it as him but it recognizes the power from the allomantic burn, recognizes the metal of the Metalmind to be the same as the one allowing the Allomantic power in use and thus "reasons" that the power stored within the Metalmind the user is tapping is necessarily the same as the one resulting from the burn and thus that's what the user recives.(Dunno if I am very clear right now, might come to edit this and try to explain better later)

[Voidus]

I adressed the reasons as to why we have not seen anyone do it(or at least not presented as having been donne that way as I still believe this is how TLR did his famous Soothing) as for multiple people using the more known form of compounding we have see all of three exemples: TLR, Marsh and Miles

 

Of those three, One might have been using the method I am proposing here, the second we haven't seen in a fight in the AoL period at which point he could have learned to use method I am advocating here. And the third would not bother trying to do so given the lackluster power of his allomantic Gold compared to the awesome capability it gives when used feruchemically.

 

Now Concerning Nicrosil, you might be right that might be it's effect(or one of those)but I doubt it, just as I doubt Brandon would reveal Nicrosil's feruchemical power for something like the MAG which I do not even understand you mentioning here.

 

Concerning the WoB, well what it proves wrong is your claim that Feruchemy modifies the metal, which it doesn't it just stores something within it(true this could be considered a modification in some way so I can kinda see your point here)and does not change it's nature, just as a suitcase remains a suitcase wether it's empty or full.

 

As for your last point I just feel you are thinking in the wrong box: You keep thinking in the "Feruchemy box" which is irrelevant to what I propose here as here feruchemy is just a tool to get more power for Allomancy just as Allomancy is in regular compounding with it's rules not applying.

 

Here the hypothesis works by Allomantic rules in which Preservation' s power change the user to allow the allowmantic ability of the metal the user currently burn, so when the user burns his allmantic Metal he is different, thus when he taps one of his Metalmind made out of the same metal he is burning the system does not recognize it as him but it recognizes the power from the allomantic burn, recognizes the metal of the Metalmind to be the same as the one allowing the Allomantic power in use and thus "reasons" that the power stored within the Metalmind the user is tapping is necessarily the same as the one resulting from the burn and thus that's what the user recives.(Dunno if I am very clear right now, might come to edit this and try to explain better later)

Sorry, must have missed it on the first readthrough, the numbers are currently unknown but I'd guess there are at least a few compounders so it seems strange that it hasn't been mentioned yet still, particularly given that there's no way to tell just what could happen when you compound certain allomantic traits. You mention Miles' allomantic ability being pretty useless but that's just at normal strength, what would increased strength in gold even do? Off the top of my head a few potentially interesting applications would be using it like a SoulStamp, changing your personality completely to one of those other lives, potentially gaining new skills and abilities. Heck for all we know it might result in physically cloning yourself (Though that'd obviously be at the farther reaches of plausibility) So it seems odd that it was never even mentioned as a potential problem, unless Wax already knew exactly what compounding Allomantic gold did I suppose, but I don't see why he would.

Nicrosil's effect was already known to be storing Investiture, it's just the details that were unclear, but even before the MAG people were speculating that it could be used for compounding allomancy. Yes the MAG isn't the best source of canon but Brandon did assist in it's creation so it's still more canonical than nothing.

On the WoB, when I said it changes the metal this:

 

 

 

What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing.

Is what I was referring to. So yeah, not suggesting the metal is altered atomically or anything.

My point is more that all three metallic systems share the 16 metals, by feruchemically charging a metal you're essentially (From a metallic arts point of view) creating an entirely new metal, and yet there's no way to do this in reverse since Allomancy doesn't change the metals in any way (Other than destroying them) so there's no clear way to compound allomancy, I just feel that any method to do so would be more complicated than simply tapping a metalmind while burning. (Actually, on that point I'd raise an issue that Inquisitors would have done exactly that pretty frequently, if they had feruchemical steel and normal steel (Which they're burning all the time for their sight to work) then by this system any time they tapped their speed it should have just become extra steelpushing power) So I think it might work similarly to the system you described but I think there might still be a missing step.

I think I understand what you're saying in that last bit but I think my view is just that there's no reason that the feruchemical charge should be interpreted/ allomantically at that point, just like burning two metals at the same time presents no problem I don't see why tapping a metalmind of the same type should change the power you receive from the metalmind. I'll try to dig up a few WoBs to better show my reasoning but I guess it ultimately just amounts to a difference of opinion.

[Warpsmith]

Sorry, must have missed it on the first readthrough, the numbers are currently unknown but I'd guess there are at least a few compounders so it seems strange that it hasn't been mentioned yet still, particularly given that there's no way to tell just what could happen when you compound certain allomantic traits. You mention Miles' allomantic ability being pretty useless but that's just at normal strength, what would increased strength in gold even do? Off the top of my head a few potentially interesting applications would be using it like a SoulStamp, changing your personality completely to one of those other lives, potentially gaining new skills and abilities. Heck for all we know it might result in physically cloning yourself (Though that'd obviously be at the farther reaches of plausibility) So it seems odd that it was never even mentioned as a potential problem, unless Wax already knew exactly what compounding Allomantic gold did I suppose, but I don't see why he would.

Nicrosil's effect was already known to be storing Investiture, it's just the details that were unclear, but even before the MAG people were speculating that it could be used for compounding allomancy. Yes the MAG isn't the best source of canon but Brandon did assist in it's creation so it's still more canonical than nothing.

On the WoB, when I said it changes the metal this:

 

Is what I was referring to. So yeah, not suggesting the metal is altered atomically or anything.

My point is more that all three metallic systems share the 16 metals, by feruchemically charging a metal you're essentially (From a metallic arts point of view) creating an entirely new metal, and yet there's no way to do this in reverse since Allomancy doesn't change the metals in any way (Other than destroying them) so there's no clear way to compound allomancy, I just feel that any method to do so would be more complicated than simply tapping a metalmind while burning. (Actually, on that point I'd raise an issue that Inquisitors would have done exactly that pretty frequently, if they had feruchemical steel and normal steel (Which they're burning all the time for their sight to work) then by this system any time they tapped their speed it should have just become extra steelpushing power) So I think it might work similarly to the system you described but I think there might still be a missing step.

I think I understand what you're saying in that last bit but I think my view is just that there's no reason that the feruchemical charge should be interpreted/ allomantically at that point, just like burning two metals at the same time presents no problem I don't see why tapping a metalmind of the same type should change the power you receive from the metalmind. I'll try to dig up a few WoBs to better show my reasoning but I guess it ultimately just amounts to a difference of opinion.

I know there might be other compounders out there, Hell there HAS to be but as I pointed out before even the "regular" form out compounding is not a widely known fact, so why would the reverse form be ? Also in most cases, enhanced allomancy might just amount to stuff like"Holy Harmony!!!! That Copper Cloud's strong" or "By the Survivor this guy quelled that entire riot in one Soothng, but there are thousands here, never seen such a Soother".

 

As for Miles and Gold I agree with you, this ability enhanced might have potential but put things back in their context here:Miles does not know the stuff we do, nor is he scientifically minded and neither is Scadrial as advanced as earth yet and he has to survive in what essentially Wild West with added Metalborn so of course he will find allomantic gold lackluster compared to infinite healing.

 

Concerning Nicrosil I meant the effect of tapping it and I am well aware peope have been speculating on that but for some reason I do not think it's just that in fact I think it's lot more and with maybe great Cosmere ramifications.

 

Ah and now I get your meaning, makes more snese that way with the WoB's context, as for the Inquisistor's issue I've actually thought about it: As you pointed out yourself the inquisitors ALWAYS burn Steel and Iron which means they are burning it when they are storing attributes, so the constant burning is registered as part of"user".

 

Now as to why burning two different metals presents no problem because they ARE different metals so there can be no bug, while Allomantic Pewter and Feruchemical Pewter use both the SAME METAL so since they are the same they would get interpreted the same by the system.

 

Eh now I get you do not agree and that's fine, this' just a theory and I do not hold the universal truth after all.(if there actually is one, but that's another debate).

[Voidus]

Just to respond on the subject of Miles, while I agree that even if he could do something cool with his allomancy he'd be unlikely to experiment enough to try I meant more as to why Wax doesn't consider it to be a potential problem worth mentioning. So either Wax doesn't know that you can compound allomancy (Which is a pretty big deal, especially with what we've found out about his grandmother) which would mean the information would have to be extremely limited, or else he knew that Miles could but knew that it was useless but in the latter case I feel like it still should have been mentioned at some point.
So yeah, for me I just find it difficult to believe that a character as knowledgeable as Wax wouldn't know about this kind of compounding if it was this simple. He knows that the Lord Ruler compounded to achieve immortality and likely also knows that TLR was an extremely powerful allomancer so it would seem pretty likely that he'd at least speculate about it.

I think Nicrosil certainly has more potential ramifications than just allomantic compounding, particularly given how tight-lipped Brandon is about it, I just think that it also plays a part in compounding.