kroen Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 When Marsh told Vin that burning bronze in the presence of a rioter/soother is better than burning copper because this way you can tell which emotions they're trying to manipulate, I couldn't help but wonder- why not burn both? Isn't it the best of both worlds? Not only you could tell which emotions they're trying to manipulate, you would also be immune to said manipulation. Unless I'm missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Coppercloud would also mask the bronzepulses the soother is creating 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 You can't both cloud and seek at the same time. You end up cancelling out anything that you're trying to hear. It seems to be possible for someone else to cloud, and for you to seek undetected (see: smoker + seeker soothing station setups). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Wait, why would another person's coppercloud allow you to seek but not your own coppercould? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Wait, why would another person's coppercloud allow you to seek but not your own coppercould? Presumably the same reason why copperclouds protect your own emotions, but not those of others. (Technically it's in theory possible for someone to learn a method to protect other people from soothing/rioting while they're in your coppercloud, but nobody's ever managed it in canon, and you'd have to be insanely good at it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk he/him Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I thought it took duralumin to sense which emotions were being manipulated? And it was very disorienting, and used up all her bronze. Or maybe Marsh is talking about when the emotional Allomancer is nearby, and would be included in the coppercloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I thought it took duralumin to sense which emotions were being manipulated? And it was very disorienting, and used up all her bronze. Or maybe Marsh is talking about when the emotional Allomancer is nearby, and would be included in the coppercloud. You can do it without duralumin - it just takes a TON of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Marsh actually states it's possible with enough practice for a regular Seeker to do this. Vin uses duralumim to cheat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Might be possible for Vin to pierce her own coppercloud but for most Mistborn as others have said you'd just shield the pulses with your copper so you wouldn't sense anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Might be possible for Vin to pierce her own coppercloud but for most Mistborn as others have said you'd just shield the pulses with your copper so you wouldn't sense anything. And other people's coppercloud wouldn't do said shielding? (as people on this thread have suggested.) What exactly is the difference between the copperclouds? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Range, actually. Now I think of it, a mistborn could still use bronze to detect another listing OUTSIDE their OWN coppercloud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Range, actually. Now I think of it, a mistborn could still use bronze to detect another listing OUTSIDE their OWN coppercloud Exactly what I was thinking. So what with people claiming your own coppercloud would cancel your bronze but another guy's coppercloud wouldn't? I fail to see the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I wonder if you could vary the bubble your copper cloud enveloped. Could you produce a cloud directly around your person that effects only yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I wonder if you could vary the bubble your copper cloud enveloped. Could you produce a cloud directly around your person that effects only yourself? I think a skilled Smoker probably could... turn the copper burn down low, like giving a gentle nudge with Steel or Brass for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I think a skilled Smoker probably could... turn the copper burn down low, like giving a gentle nudge with Steel or Brass for example. Not sure skill has any role here. As we know with pulsers/sliders their bubble size is fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) Not sure skill has any role here. As we know with pulsers/sliders their bubble size is fixed. Is that stated in AoL? There is a theory on FTL that suggests the bendalloy bubble size may be proportional to strength. Edited April 23, 2013 by Khmauv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Is that stated in AoL? There is a theory on FTL that suggests the bendalloy bubble size may be proportional to strength. By "fixed" I mean that for any single pulser/slider his bubble would always be the same size. My comment was about a skillful smoker controlling the size of his coppercloud, to which I answered that if a pulser/slider can't control the size of his bubble, why would a smoker could? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 By "fixed" I mean that for any single pulser/slider his bubble would always be the same size. My comment was about a skillful smoker controlling the size of his coppercloud, to which I answered that if a pulser/slider can't control the size of his bubble, why would a smoker could? My inquiry was of genuine curiosity. I would like to know how that works. Do we know that it is fixed? I am having trouble recalling AoL since it has been a while since I read it. I can't recall anything in respect to a copper clouds size either, whether that is a reflection of allomantic strength or is it a common size among all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Just had a look at the RPG rules for copper (not 100% canon, but I think the best we have for now). According to the RPG, Coppercloud size is indeed fixed; flaring is simply used to offset a skilled or powerful Seeker. There is also an additional Stunt that can increase the size of a Coppercloud; however this is a permanent gain, and does not give the ability to alter the size of the affected area 'on-the-fly'. According to the RPG rules for Cadmium and Bendalloy, the Allomancer must decide when creating the bubble both the time-differential and the size of the bubble - these then become fixed, but only for each bubble until destroyed (subsequent bubbles may be a different size, up to a given maximum). Again, I must state that RPG rules are not necessarily canon. I think it was stated somewhere that certain things had to be balanced for game reasons, so things of this nature in particular should not be taken too much as cast-iron fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 According to the RPG, Coppercloud size is indeed fixed; flaring is simply used to offset a skilled or powerful Seeker. That doesn't seem right. The only way to pierce a coppercloud is by having double bronze, and flaring your copper won't protect you from that. I doubt that even a novice smoker's coppercloud can be pierced by a non-double bronze seeker, even if he's a highly skilled one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan he/him Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Simple answer: the Seekers in the Soothing stations are stationed far enough away that they aren't in the coppercloud. The Ministry probably isn't worried about all that many Seekers in the slums, particularly when their own Seekers are likely more skilled and have Inquisitors to find skaa Seekers. It's also not a skill I see many Seekers practicing in the slums, since there is (arguably) very little Allomancy to detect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 As I said, some things have been tweaked for game balance. I believe that the canon stated you need to be sufficiently powerful in Bronze, not sure if you specifically need double-bronze (I'm assuming this refers to spiking, sorry if I'm wrong) or not. I believe TLR could also pierce copperclouds (which is how he captured Kelsier and Mare) simply due to his absurd, god-like strength in Allomancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I don't know how it is intended, but I hope Brandon does something with copperclouds in the future to make them more interesting. Otherwise copper is just a really boring power to have. Essential but boring. either you have the power or you don't? no practice necessary? No skill required to be a 'good' smoker? Lame! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I don't know how it is intended, but I hope Brandon does something with copperclouds in the future to make them more interesting. Otherwise copper is just a really boring power to have. Essential but boring. either you have the power or you don't? no practice necessary? No skill required to be a 'good' smoker? Lame! ^this, plus no real use flaring/nicroborsting it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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