Shardworld population density and maps

[Sol Invictus he/him]

I've devoured everything the Coppermind has on the Cosmere so I'm well aware of the metaplot of Adonalsium, Hoid, Odium, so on, AND that humanity's original home was Yolen.

But one thing has been bugging me---

---How spread out IS humanity on each Shardworld/Splinterworld? In the real world, it took humanity a hugely long time to spread across the Earth; but humanity in the Cosmere was an artificial element introduced to every Shardworld except Yolen. So---how far spread out IS humanity on each Shardworld? Take Sel, for instance---are there large swaths of Selish territory that've never seen human habitation?

[Guest]

I don't think we know enough about Sel to say one way or the other, though given the fact that Teod has a naval armada instead of coast-hugging vessels, I think it'd be safe to assume all major land masses have at least been visited by people if not settled.

Brandon has said a few times that the presence of Investiture tends to have the effect of artificially advancing certain aspects of civilization beyond what would normally be seen for a given technology level.

In general, food is easier to grow/gather and more plentiful either through direct creation (Aons, Soulcasting), or because fewer people are able to do more work (Lifeless helping on a farm, for example, would mean fewer people can grow more food, though I don't recall if that specific example applies)

As a result, even though Shardworlds are pre-industrialized, they have populations more like what you would expect of industrialized nations.

[Sol Invictus he/him]

Thank you! As a further three question:

[Cosmere-wide]What about languages? Say a Surgebinder from Roshar Worldhopped over to Nalthis and immediately runs into someone native---could they successfully communicate? And if so, would this constitute a Yolish language everyone has forgotten the origins of?

[Nalthis]Do the Hallendren have a creation-myth? Furthermore, what do they believe sends the Returned back to Nalthis? Warbreaker was frustratingly vague on this matter.

[sel]Considering the highly regionalized nature of Selish Investiture, what does it take for new geographical magic to appear? Say the people of MaiPon are forced to move far afield (for whatever reason---famine, civil war, so on)---if they settled a new land elsewhere on Sel, would they be cut off from Investiture due to being far from home, or would they slowly discover a new form of magic unique to said new location?

[Oudeis he/him]

This is a fascinating question I haven't myself wondered before. I am briefly going to pen down the few thoughts I have, behind spoilers per Shardworld.

 

One overarching thought is to think about how long humanity has been on each Shardworld. Some of them have been there for, at least, several millenia.

 

Scadrial:

Starting off with one of the easier ones. In Classic Scadrial, who knows. They are well traveled enough for that one religion to have enough maps that Harmony can reconstruct the world, and for Alendi to talk about uniting all people under one common nation. In Era 1, "the entire habitable zone of the planet" is shockingly small, mostly inhabited, and well explored, considering the level of technology and academics of the Final Empire. In Era 2, Isaac Stewart's map seems to be most if not all of the Known World for 300 years after roughly 200K humans survived the Final Ascension.

 

Roshar:

Even easier. I believe there's a WoB somewhere that this is the only continent on the planet. With few small exceptions (like the Shattered Plains) the whole thing is mapped and settled, and apparently has been for thousands of years.

 

Nalthis:

The entire novel takes place within one geographical setting, among people who don't think or talk much about the outside world. It is an enormous valley surrounded by mountains which it is difficult to cross, and an Inland Sea. The valley is large enough for several kingdoms, though none of the kingdoms seem to have all that many major cities. We know for sure other places exist. The people who came to this area and founded Hallandren came from somewhere else, after all. The Phan Khal had been living there already. WoB speaks of other lands over the mountains, where the corpses of heroes are bought in case they Return, and of course Hallandren makes its wealth by selling its dyes to other lands. Very, very little is known of the rest of the world, however. Six hundred years ago, a ship set sail from somewhere, landed in a jungle unknown to its native land, and started a kingdom. Take from that what you will.

 

Sel:

A lot of little things are known, making this harder than either Scadrial or Roshar with definite yesses, or Nalthis with a definite shrug. Many places are discussed. Travel and trade thrive, as does the sharing of information. We get a sense of thousands of years of history (from the fact that Arelon seems to be an old nation, yet when they first arrived in these lands someone had built Elantris first). I would suspect that most of the world is fairly well explored at this point, and I'd be surprised if there was very much unknown.

 

Threnody:

The world of Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell. Tech level very low. We know that they originally lived on one continent, Homeland, and abandoned it after the Evil for a place they called Hell. Presumably if they knew of any continents reachable called literally anything other than Hell, they'd have gone there. Only a Splinterworld, but of the ones that we've seen, I'd say only Era 2 Scadrial is less explored.

 

First of the Sun:

Our other Splinterworld, from the short story Sixth of the Dusk. The most technologically advanced world we've seen, and the story is set further ahead in the Cosmere timeline than any other. We only see it from the eyes of a fairly unadvanced man in one of the less advanced nations. More than his brethren, it is implied, he embraces technology, but still less than the average mainlander.

 

Still, from the technology displayed, even though he's shocked at the very idea of artillery, the world seems fairly well explored. I personally would suspect that most, if not all, of the world has been explored except for the Islands, and even they have been explored, in their own way, for years. Thousands of years? I only read the story once.

 

As for your questions:

 

Language is definitely not the same Shardworld to Shardworld, though it's implied that many of them will exhibit common roots. Hoid, for example, needs magic to speak local languages. I will try to find the WoB.

 

The Hallandren believe in a vague, non-specific God called the Iridescent Tones. The Tones are what Return heroes as Gods. Gods are manifestations of the Tones. The Tones are less like a "I imagine you as a human being" God and more like an idea of fate or destiny, more overarching and universal. Llarimar (Scoot) happens to be my favorite character in that book, and he talks the most about this.

 

Sel: It is implied that certain places have certain magic. I'm not sure if that means there are "points of light", i.e. certain places will allow for magic but most places will not (Teod either doesn't have one, or is technically within the Elantrian hegemony, just so far as to have crippled power). It could be that every possible magic system in the world will cover the entire planet, but it's also possible that not everywhere does have magic.

 

However, we do know that a new place will have a new magic. The current Arelish people migrated across the world and found the city of Elantris. The king's own daugther was the first taken by the Shaod and made Elantrian. Moving to the geographic location made the people attuned to the magic that must have already existed there (else, how could the City already have been made in the form of an Aon?)

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Populations are a bit of vague thing for me but i do recall, as Oudeis has said, there has been a confirmation of sorts regarding Scadrial's population figures discussed over here in Argent's topic here http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/31388-impact-of-the-end-of-the-hero-of-ages-to-the-final-empires-population/

 

As for the questions, i recall reading a WoB that the languages have similar words/concepts and have been spread over the cosmere via Worldhoppers and other means e.g. Siri in Warbreaker mentions Shash as a letter i believe, which is also the name of the brand Kaladin has on his forehead etc. so there are common origins. Hallendren hasn't be expanded upon quite yet (hopefully more in Nightblood) but i don't think they believe in Austre like the Idrians do, though they may have done in the past. They do have some vague ideas in regard to the Tone as Oudeis said and they might also revere/respect the Tears of Edgli given their significance to their culture/economy. As for Selish magics, again hard to say since seeing as Aona/Skai were killed and their Shards shattered/splintered, Selish magic doesn't work quite the way it used to. If i remember rightly, despite being from the same planet, there's something funky going on with their spiritual DNA which effects their cognitive and physical DNA somehow (don't quote me on this, was a long time ago and can't remember if WoBs were involved/linked but i think there was) or to expand on what Oudeis, it might work along a ley-line nexus scenario and Elantris' was purporsely built on top of one with the Aon Rao to help harness and amplify it.

[Guest]

[sel]Considering the highly regionalized nature of Selish Investiture, what does it take for new geographical magic to appear? Say the people of MaiPon are forced to move far afield (for whatever reason---famine, civil war, so on)---if they settled a new land elsewhere on Sel, would they be cut off from Investiture due to being far from home, or would they slowly discover a new form of magic unique to said new location?

You're assuming that Forging ability will travel with the Forger and new Features simply need to be discovered.

While I *HOPE* that is the case, I don't feel it is. If Forging and AonDor work on similar principles (possibly false), then Brandon has stated that you would have to "hack the magic system" to use it elsewhere, which I interpret as meaning the Symbols are confined to an Area but there's a way to use those Symbols elsewhere without losing power.

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Labrat - I have a somewhat lax recall of Sel, having not read Elantris as recently or as frequently as the others, but don't we see Chay'san being used by Shuden in Arelon? I'm not yes how this coresponds with the aforementioned WoB though.

[Guest]

Labrat - I have a somewhat lax recall of Sel, having not read Elantris as recently or as frequently as the others, but don't we see Chay'san being used by Shuden in Arelon? I'm not yes how this coresponds with the aforementioned WoB though.

True we see him use it, but by his own description he's not very good at it - or he THINKS he's not very good because he's not getting the type of power people from his homeland can get. Without a 2nd person to compare to, he could in fact be doing everything perfect, but his power is suffering from location-decay.

Or, both Chay-San and Forging handle location differently from AonDor.

[Oudeis he/him]

You're assuming that Forging ability will travel with the Forger and new Features simply need to be discovered.

 

...Actually no, he (she?) posited two possibilities, neither of which are the one you describe. Though I do hear that one speculated on constantly on these fora.

 

Also, while Shuden claims he's not very good, he in fact takes down two or three Dhakor monks. Either ChayShan is fantastically overpowered, or he's not as weakened by distance as AonDor is (not very) far from Arelon. Or, I suppose, maybe the Dhakor monks, being far from Fjordell, aren't at full strength either, though Dilaf never seems to suffer any noticeable weakness. Maybe in Fjordell he really would be just incomparably strong?

Edited June 29, 2015 by Oudeis

[Guest]

...Actually no, he (she?) posited two possibilities, neither of which are the one you describe. Though I do hear that one speculated on constantly on these fora.

You're right, I misread the "new forms OF magic" as "new forms FOR magic"

[Sol Invictus he/him]

I'm a he, by the way. :-) "Sol Invictus" is the Roman name of a very male sun-deity.

[Oudeis he/him]

You're right, I misread the "new forms OF magic" as "new forms FOR magic"

 

Aaaaah, cool. Sorry if I could have tried to clarify more politely. I just went up to re-read what I'd written before, and should have done the "read the words aloud to see if you sound like kind of a jerk" trick before posting. [smiley face to defuse tension]

[Guest]

Also, while Shuden claims he's not very good, he in fact takes down two or three Dhakor monks. Either ChayShan is fantastically overpowered, or he's not as weakened by distance as AonDor is (not very) far from Arelon. Or, I suppose, maybe the Dhakor monks, being far from Fjordell, aren't at full strength either, though Dilaf never seems to suffer any noticeable weakness. Maybe in Fjordell he really would be just incomparably strong?

ChayShan being "overpowered" would make some sense, as Shu-Keseg was the precursor to Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath. Perhaps the split also split the power they could access, and the regional access was also divided up, resulting in slower distance - decay and greater power for followers of Shu-Keseg.

(This is all assuming that the religions and magics are linked, which they may not be)

[Guest]

Aaaaah, cool. Sorry if I could have tried to clarify more politely. I just went up to re-read what I'd written before, and should have done the "read the words aloud to see if you sound like kind of a jerk" trick before posting. [smiley face to defuse tension]

You didn't sound like a jerk.

:-)

[Guest]

Just came across this by accident looking for something else. Apparently the sDNA codes for locale on Sel, as well as Investiture access... or possibly on Sel it would be s&cDNA because the Dor isn't just Spiritual on Sel, but Cognitive as well.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=979#14

NEPENE ()

In The Emperor's Soul and Elantris the magic systems have very different methods and powers, though both work through symbols. Assuming they adapted the symbols to their local geography could they use each other's methods? Could an Elantrian forge a soulstamp say?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Birth in a certain location on Sel gives a certain affinity for the local symbols, and their usage. To use the magic of another region, one would need to have a rewritten connection to that area instead.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I'd say given that Shu-Keseg, and to a lesser extent ChayShan, were the original starting points of current Selish cultures/ways of life (excluding Mai Pon given we're not sure of how their history ties in with the rest of Sel). In the case of Dakhor monks, wasn't Dilaf infused with the power of like 50 monks or something, i think the actual number was in the book so i guess, they greater the Investment, the less effect it has perhaps.

 

True we see him use it, but by his own description he's not very good at it - or he THINKS he's not very good because he's not getting the type of power people from his homeland can get. Without a 2nd person to compare to, he could in fact be doing everything perfect, but his power is suffering from location-decay.

Or, both Chay-San and Forging handle location differently from AonDor.

 

 

Lab, i'll see if i can find it, but i remember a WoB on theoryland saying that Soulstamps get weaker the further from Mai Pon they are, so i'm guessing Forgery as a whole will.

 

ah...here it is

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 16th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Viper (Paraphrased)

VIPER

Aons look like Arelon; soulstamps look like MaiPon. Aons get weaker when you get further from Arelon, right? That's not just cause Elantris acts like a focus?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's right, it's based on distance. That's why there are no stamped objects in Elantris.

VIPER

So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's correct.

VIPER

Could soulstamps be carved that used Arelon as a base form instead of MaiPon?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's very interesting, isn't it?

 

Edited June 29, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[natc]

While we know that the decay exists across Sel, the only time we witness a system being used over a drastic shift in distance is with AonDor, which had been continually boosted by the Elantrian Aon prior for the entire duration of it being at full strength from Raoden's POV. Even then, while he can't teleport the entire distance back into Elantris that he did away from it, the others could still make decent fireballs and such.

Everything still points to ChayShan being overpowered really (he could already do that much), but the booster's effects on AonDor probably decay even more noticeably than AonDor itself, especially considering that they're only just across the ocean. Jindo would actually be closer if that map on the coppermind Sel page is scaled properly. Elantrian AonDor is likely far beyond the natural potency of AonDor.