Mistborn on Roshar

[InstantWalrus]

So i was wondering about cross-cosmere magic.

 

We know Hoid and Vasher at least are on Roshar using stormlight as investiture to fuel their abilities.

 

I was wondering how mistborn (or fogspawned as i like to call them) powers work with stormlight.

 

So far the only allomancy we've supposedly seen on Roshar was hoid, and if I remember correctly he still had to eat allomantic metal powder to use it. So presumably any mistborn on Roshar could still use their powers as intended with the ingestion of metal (possibly with the exception of atium which im pretty sure doesnt exist anywhere any more).

 

But could they use the investiture from stormlight to power allomancy?

 

I find fogspawned allomancy confusing since finding out about investiture. So if investiture is the fuel for the magic does that mean metals are infused with it? Or is it innate investiture somehow catalysing metals into their allomantic effects?

 

If allomantic metals are a source of investiture (which i find likely since without the metals fogspawned arnt worth squat also when Vin draws on the mist she doesnt need metals) would they be able to use stormlight to use the same powers on Roshar? And if so why does Hoid need metals? And what good would Rosharan metals be if they arnt infused with investiture like the Skadrial ones?

 

Could fogspawned swallow infused gem stones and use allomantic powers?

 

tl;dr - why do mistborn need to eat metals on roshar and could they use stormlight instead. Are metals innately infused with investiture or just those on Skadrial. Why does Hoid need metal powder?

[Guest]

But could they use the investiture from stormlight to power allomancy?

The answer is likely "yes, with some effort", but since Metals are very common and Stormlight is relatively limited/difficult to gather I don't see why anyone would want to.  It seems to me that powering Surgebinding with Allomantic power would be far more useful

 

 

I find fogspawned allomancy confusing since finding out about investiture. So if investiture is the fuel for the magic does that mean metals are infused with it? Or is it innate investiture somehow catalysing metals into their allomantic effects?

 

If allomantic metals are a source of investiture (which i find likely since without the metals fogspawned arnt worth squat also when Vin draws on the mist she doesnt need metals) would they be able to use stormlight to use the same powers on Roshar? And if so why does Hoid need metals? And what good would Rosharan metals be if they arnt infused with investiture like the Skadrial ones?

 

The metals themselves are simultaneously very important and utterly unnecessary for powering Allomancy. The metals contain no power and are in no way special, with the Allomantic power coming directly from Preservation, what the metals are doing is opening a connection to Preservation.

 

As an analogy, an electrical device (lets say a blender) representing the Allomancer, and a power plant representing Preservation. In this analogy, the Metal represents the wall plug, allowing the power to flow from the power plant into the blender. The reason for the different powers is that the different Metals "shape" the power into specific forms according to their atomic arrangements.

 

When Vin draws on the Mist, she's directly drawing Preservation into her, so she no longer needs a connector and can power her Allomancy without Metals (if she'd known to try, she likely would have been able to do other things as well, but she was using familiar forms because they were familiar)

[kaellok he/him]

Metal seems like it is scarce in nature on Roshar, but Soulcasting serves as a plentiful and easy source. So someone with access to both will rarely, if ever, actually be out of power.

Hoid probably used Allomancy because it was the easiest way to achieve his purpose. Emotional manipulation of other people is largely confined to specific magic systems (ie, Allomancy and Forging are the only ones I can think of.) Adding some flavoring to tea might appear odd to others (which, honestly, is what it would have liked like he was doing), but sucking the glow out of many gems, absorbing it into yourself, and then using it in an incredibly inefficient manner would be supremely obvious.

also, WoB says that using one type of investiture to fuel an alternate magic system is hard. Vasher had to be very, very careful during the weeping to make sure his Light lasts.

[Moogle]

When Vin draws on the Mist, she's directly drawing Preservation into her, so she no longer needs a connector and can power her Allomancy without Metals (if she'd known to try, she likely would have been able to do other things as well, but she was using familiar forms because they were familiar)

 

WoB to back up the idea that she could have done other things than just the Allomantic metals she knew (spoilered for length, still not confirmed):

QUESTION

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

(source)

QUESTION

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

(source)

[Oudeis he/him]

...I don't see how anything you posted, Moogle, backs up the theory that Vin could have done more than the familiar powers.

 

Also: Forgery as emotional manipulation... I had not considered that. Technically correct, but wow would you have to do a LOT of work under very difficult circumstances to manipulate someone's emotions for a relatively short period of time...

[Guest]

...I don't see how anything you posted, Moogle, backs up the theory that Vin could have done more than the familiar powers.

Also: Forgery as emotional manipulation... I had not considered that. Technically correct, but wow would you have to do a LOT of work under very difficult circumstances to manipulate someone's emotions for a relatively short period of time...

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle.

[Oudeis he/him]

Eh.... but there are always limits. Even in his example of Nalthis, his personal definition of a place with the least innate nozzle, there are things Awakening can do and things it can't. You're still constrained by the overall system.

 

Vin's will allowed her to use any and all of the powers of allomancy without metal. I don't see any evidence to suggest that "will" can be used to grant you powers outside of your power set, "will-nozzle" or not. Until the point of actual Ascension, we've seen people Invest very, very powerfully, and we've never seen anyone go outside the limits of their own system. Obviously, full Ascension is a whole different story in any circumstance.

[Moogle]

...I don't see how anything you posted, Moogle, backs up the theory that Vin could have done more than the familiar powers.=

 

I don't know that I agree all the systems have restrictions, per se. (I agree in a limited sense.)

 

I would draw attention to the systems you're speaking of: Awakening and Surgebinding. There really are very few restrictions on these systems (mental nozzles), relative to Allomancy and AonDor (which use non-mental nozzles). I think it can be safely said that systems using mental nozzles are going to be much more flexible on average. So, if we remove the physical limits on Allomancy, and allow will to play a greater role, it seems possible to me that some of the restrictions of Allomancy might be lifted.

 

As well, consider metalminds and god metals. They also serve to add additional nozzles that Allomancy can use. Why should Vin not be able to replicate the effects of burning a metalmind, for example? Well, it's possible her will-nozzle can't replicate the effects of a metalmind's nozzle, but it's by no means confirmed. (And why would she be able to replicate the nozzle of a metal, but not a metalmind?) What about replicating the effects of a god metal? She couldn't replicate atium exactly (since it is of Ruin), but I have this WoB which I feel also supports the theory:

Andrew the Great (19 October 2008)

Why can Vin fuel Elend's atium-burning, even though Atium is Ruin's Body and Vin is using Preservation? Or did I misread that and he was just burning atium and had run out of everything else?

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)

Yes, as has been pointed out:

A powerful peace swelled in Elend. His Allomancy flared bright, though he knew the metals inside of him should have burned away. Only atium remained, and the strange power did not—could not—give him this metal. But it didn’t matter. For a moment, he was embraced by something greater. He looked up, toward the sun.

 

As a note here, the powers granted by all of the metals—even the two divine ones—are not themselves of either Shard. They are simply tools.  And so, it's possible that one COULD have found a way to reproduce an ability like atium's while using Preservation's power, but it wouldn't be as natural or as easy as using Preservation to fuel Allomancy.

The means of getting powers—Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting—are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.

(source)

 

The part I highlighted makes me think. At some point with the mists, Vin became able to use them to do far, far more than Allomancy. Why could she not do it before her body is destroyed? What changed?

 

I would speculate (moderate confidence) that what changed is that her mind expanded. With her expanded mind, she was capable of crafting will-nozzles that could do almost anything. As a puny human, she was limited.

 

Take a look at Awakening: as you slowly become Endowment by getting more and more Breaths, your mind expands. At some point, you become capable of instinctively Awakening. More Investiture = more expanded mind. And the things that you become capable of doing at a high Heightening can be done at a lower Heightening, if you bring the knowledge with you. A regular person would never normally figure out how to create a one-Breath Lifeless, but the Five Scholars could. And once they learned how to do it, they could teach others, and then people with one Breath could do it.

 

So, with Vin, could the things she learned to do as a Shard be replicated pre-Ascension if she taught someone who was capable of holding the mists? I think it's possible to a limited degree. Creating a will-nozzle is really really hard, as Warbreaker shows. And the more complicated Commands simply cannot be done at lower Heightenings - Awakening metal requires a very high Heightening. So perhaps most of the things Preservation-Vin could do simply could not be done before Ascension, simply because mortal minds were not capable of contorting into creating the proper nozzles. But I think some of the things perhaps could have been done pre-Ascension.

 

And so, my train of thought leads me to the idea that Vin was probably capable of doing more than her familiar Allomancy with the mists. (The condition being that she work at it and learn how to do it, of course.)

 

This is by no means guaranteed (unless you interpret the WoB I posted in this post that way). It is a theory. I find it moderately likely that Vin was not limited to the sixteen Allomantic metals, but I'm not super confident because there's not enough evidence either way. The WoB I posted, to me, offers evidence for the theory, even if it's not terribly strong evidence.

[yurisses]

...I don't see how anything you posted, Moogle, backs up the theory that Vin could have done more than the familiar powers.

 

Also: Forgery as emotional manipulation... I had not considered that. Technically correct, but wow would you have to do a LOT of work under very difficult circumstances to manipulate someone's emotions for a relatively short period of time...

Enough mist can turn a human into a Shard of Adonalsium, and surely Preservation himself (herself, in the case of Vin) had more power than just the allomantic powers.

[Oudeis he/him]

Enough mist can turn a human into a Shard of Adonalsium, and surely Preservation himself (herself, in the case of Vin) had more power than just the allomantic powers.

 

Obviously, full Ascension is a whole different story in any circumstance.

 

...which is prolly why I already addressed this exact point.

[yurisses]

"Ascension" is a gradual process and one doesn't need the entire power of a given Intent to be a Shard of Adonalsium and have the powers of one (as evidenced by live Shardholders creating splinters). Hence, it makes sense for Vin to be able to use extra-Allomantic powers with the raw power of Preservation before the threshold where her body sort-of-implodes.

Edited June 20, 2015 by yurisses

[Guest]

TLR shoved an entire planet out of orbit during his "Ascention", which was only a fraction of Preservation's power. That's definitely outside normal Allomancy.

[kaellok he/him]

TLR shoved an entire planet out of orbit during his "Ascention", which was only a fraction of Preservation's power. That's definitely outside normal Allomancy.

Sounds like a supremely powerful steel push to me.

[hoser he/him]

Maybe I'm missing something, but should there be some spoiler protection here? 

There seem to be serious Mistborn spoilers in the SA forum.  Maybe the title of the thread should say "Mistborn spoilers."

I apologize if it's not really an issue. 

[Moogle]

Maybe I'm missing something, but should there be some spoiler protection here? 

There seem to be serious Mistborn spoilers in the SA forum.  Maybe the title of the thread should say "Mistborn spoilers."

I apologize if it's not really an issue. 

 

You're entirely correct. I messed up in automatically assuming it was in Cosmere Theories. Moved.

[InstantWalrus]

So if the metals are merely a nozzle template for channeling preservations/harmony investiture how can allomancy be used on Roshar? Can investiture be channeled from a different planet?

 

Or is hoid using the metal as a nozzle to do something with stormlight he couldnt otherwise do?

 

Im still quite confused

 

edit: oh and sorry for posting in the wrong forum, should have realised the spoiler potential

Edited June 21, 2015 by InstantWalrus

[Guest]

So if the metals are merely a nozzle template for channeling preservations/harmony investiture how can allomancy be used on Roshar? Can investiture be channeled from a different planet?

Or is hoid using the metal as a nozzle to do something with stormlight he couldnt otherwise do?

Im still quite confused

edit: oh and sorry for posting in the wrong forum, should have realised the spoiler potential

Since sDNA provides the connection, it would make sense that the power is drawn from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical. We don't know how (if) distances apply there, but going based on the Cognitive Realm distances are definitely different.

[skaa he/him]

Since sDNA provides the connection, it would make sense that the power is drawn from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical. We don't know how (if) distances apply there, but going based on the Cognitive Realm distances are definitely different.

 

According to this WoB, the Spiritual Realm is not tied to location, so you're probably correct there. We're still not sure why location seems to be important in Selish Investiture (which makes AonDor difficult to use outside of Sel), but generally speaking it seems a Shard can Invest people even when they're not on its home Shardworld as long as they have the right Innate Investiture. So I guess it's still Harmony powering Allomancy on Roshar.

 

Of course, Surgebinders and the Returned do have direct access to a Shard Splinter, rendering the distance issue moot in their case.

Edited June 21, 2015 by skaa

[Jondesu he/him]

According to this WoB, the Spiritual Realm is not tied to location, so you're probably correct there. We're still not sure why location seems to be important in Selish Investiture (which makes AonDor difficult to use outside of Sel), but generally speaking it seems a Shard can Invest people even when they're not on its home Shardworld as long as they have the right Innate Investiture. So I guess it's still Harmony powering Allomancy on Roshar.

I wonder if the key is the fact that Devotion and Dominion were splintered, which may remove some of the intent and flexibility of the Shard, since they would lose the sentient mind behind them. On Roshar, by contrast, Honor was splintered but left behind many sentient splinters or shards of himself (Syl comments that she's a very tiny piece of a god), some big and some smaller, so those are powering the investiture in his place.

jW

[Guest]

I wonder if the key is the fact that Devotion and Dominion were splintered, which may remove some of the intent and flexibility of the Shard, since they would lose the sentient mind behind them. On Roshar, by contrast, Honor was splintered but left behind many sentient splinters or shards of himself (Syl comments that she's a very tiny piece of a god), some big and some smaller, so those are powering the investiture in his place.

jW

Seons are the Sel equivalent to spren like Syl or the Stormfather.

[InstantWalrus]

ok ok so if metal is your mind nozzle that shapes the investiture you channel from preservation.

 

what about haemalurgy. If you steal allomancy with a spike are you still drawing from preservation with the correct mind nozzle you stole. Or is it Ruins investiture this time. Cos harmony could have put a stop to a lot of ruins chullocks if he stopped giving investiture to the spikeyboys(although i guess that would be against the rules of their weird gentlemens agreement).

 

Also

 

So in theory a misting could use stormlight to replicate any of the allomantic powers rather than being limited to 1 if they learned how to draw it in and form a new mind nozzle? Seeing as they have the sDNA to use investiture but are just stuck with 1 mind nozzle? And apparantly raw investiture can be used with any mind nozzle and isnt limited to the metal?

 

Sorry this post is crazy (i do enjoy using the phrase mind nozzle though)

[Jondesu he/him]

Seons are the Sel equivalent to spren like Syl or the Stormfather.

Except we haven't seen any evidence that they actually power investiture themselves, except possibly their own (which doesn't diminish with distance, it seems), while the spren may be part of that powering on Roshar. Same principle, yes, but different magic systems, so a different result.

jW

Edited June 22, 2015 by Jondesu

[InstantWalrus]

i wonder if you had a seon with you and were using (erm dunno proper spelling) Seondor (?) would you still be region locked, maybe thats part of their purpose like floating talking cell network relay stations

[Jondesu he/him]

i wonder if you had a seon with you and were using (erm dunno proper spelling) Seondor (?) would you still be region locked, maybe thats part of their purpose like floating talking cell network relay stations

AonDor doesn't seem to be connected to the Seons in that way, since Raoden had a Seon, but his access to AonDor was still limited by distance.  I'd venture to guess that the Seons are powered by the Dor, though it must be in a somewhat different way, perhaps powered by an Aon representing the planet instead of just Elantris?

 

jW

[InstantWalrus]

AonDor doesn't seem to be connected to the Seons in that way, since Raoden had a Seon, but his access to AonDor was still limited by distance.  I'd venture to guess that the Seons are powered by the Dor, though it must be in a somewhat different way, perhaps powered by an Aon representing the planet instead of just Elantris?

 

jW

 

its been a while since i read the book but if i remember correctly wasnt Raodens Seon on an errand during his final showdown?