Adamir he/him Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Note: Someone else probably thought of this first. If so, tell me and I'll remove this thread. Taravangian's diagram is flawed, both in concept and execution. Exhibit A - The Diagram's Basis Taravangian states that his compassion and intelligence act in direct conflict. When he is intelligent, he is cold and calculating. When he is compassionate, he is a complete idiot. He cannot have them both simultaneously This is a bigger problem than we realize, because compassion is necessary when dealing with other people; Taravangian once drafted a law on one of his more intelligent days that required people with below average intelligence to commit suicide for the good of the city; he had been 'convinced that, if they listened to his arguments, they would see reason and die for the good of the city' Exhibit B - The Diagram's Intent The diagram is meant to make Taravangian king of Roshar, so he can have the world united to face the Everstorm. There are two problems with that goal The less severe problem is that Taravangian inspires anarchy. For example. no one in Azir wanted to become Prime; what if the people got used to having no rulers? Would they just roll over and beg for dog food when Taravangian came? Or would they splinter into anarchy when they realized that any leader they had would last no more than a month before getting assassinated? And the more severe problem is a matter of timing - the Everstorm is already here. Taravangian's diagram has already failed; he rules just two nations, and his control over the second - Jah Keved - is fragile Exhibit C - The Diagram's Failures As seen in Exhibit B, the diagram failed in uniting the world quickly enough But the biggest problem is related to Exhibit A; Taravangian could not accurately predict people. He could probably tell you what angle to fire a crossbow from the highest parapet of Kharbranth to have a Highstorm striking at that exact moment to carry it across the ocean and hit a Whitespine in Aimia, but he couldn't predict how people would react We've already seen one example of this failure - the diagram predicted six factions warring over Jah Keved, while in actuality there were seven. If we assume for chaos theory, a small slip like this could break the diagram In conclusion, Taravangian's diagram has done nothing but bring pain, without a hope of success. Edited June 10, 2015 by Adamir 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogKnight Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I disagree, the diagram was created years ago. Taravangian was super smart and able to predict the future quite well, but there are too many variables and so as time progresses, the diagram will become less and less accurate. Exhibit A- when Taravangian was the smartest, he could accurately predict how people would react to him. The day when he drafted that law, he was not smart enough to predict the people's response. Exhibit B- Regarding Azir, no one likes anarchy, after a while the people would make Taravangian Prime just for peace and stability. Regarding the timing, it is perfect. He has already brougth two nations under him, and when everyone realizes that the desolation is real; without their leaders they will panic, giving Taravangian the perfect chance to settle and unite all of Roshar. Exhibit C- Taravangian COULD predict people when he is smart enough. His prediction was off slightly regarding the number because of how long ago the diagram was written. This is a problem with all tactical plans, the longer they are in effect the more skewed they become and the more improvisation is required. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High prince of geeks he/him Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Yes the diagram is flawed, which can have one of three responses. 1. Mr. T crazily decided to stay with the diagram, no matter how flawed it is. 2. Somehow despite all odds Mr.T has another brilliant day and rewrites it, but better because he can now sea how his predictions were different than what actuality happened and compensate 3. He goes full born crazy, abandons the diagram, and makes day by day decisions no matter what his intelegence 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I'm convinced that the Diagram is actually pretty perfect if Taravangian would just perform some necessary editing in his "dumb" phase. When he's extremely smart, all his laws require a 3 day(longer?) waiting period for him to review them, so his dumber self can correct errors, but for some reason his super-SUPER smart self is immune to such oversight? Something about that doesn't smell right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 When he's extremely smart, all his laws require a 3 day(longer?) waiting period for him to review them, so his dumber self can correct errors, but for some reason his super-SUPER smart self is immune to such oversight? Something about that doesn't smell right to me. It's a little counter-intuitive, but it seems that Taravangian loses his empathy as he grows more intelligent. Empathy is how we model and deal with people, so he becomes less and less able to predict what they'll do. However, when he grows intelligent enough, he can predict what other people will do through sheer brainpower. The difference is encapsulated in Taravangian's law, where he thought people wouldn't resist a law ordering them to kill themselves, versus the Diagram which has successfully predicted the course of civil wars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 It's a little counter-intuitive, but it seems that Taravangian loses his empathy as he grows more intelligent. Empathy is how we model and deal with people, so he becomes less and less able to predict what they'll do. However, when he grows intelligent enough, he can predict what other people will do through sheer brainpower. The difference is encapsulated in Taravangian's law, where he thought people wouldn't resist a law ordering them to kill themselves, versus the Diagram which has successfully predicted the course of civil wars. I'm not worried about his ability to predict people, I'm worried about his ability to understand right from wrong. He's on a planet of Honor and Cultivation going against what is basically the god of Hatred, and I don't see mass death being beneficial to his side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 as moogle explained, the diagram is pretty accurate. however, it was made five years before, and the future cannot be predicted perfectly. So, I'd say the diagram is flawed already, and it probably needs adjusting. Taravangian himsellf is aware of it. However, he also believes that hummankind has no chances on its own. so he keeps trying the plan, hoping he can still make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Duke he/him Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 The diagram IS flawed. Taravangian or someone close to him admits it, then they tell us that the best way to expand the diagram is the death rattles. (man it looks like i spelled that wrong) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight he/him Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 The Diagram is probably pretty accurate so long as it is followed to a "t", as they say. The problem is that it is so complex, and beyond normal human understanding that its complete meaning was probably lost. They can only follow the Diagram as well as they understand it, and each deviation will cost them dearly in the long run (off the top of my head, two major deviations that will work massively against the Diagram are Dalinar still being alive and Szeth being free from his oaths). Without the Diagram being updated, it will become useless with enough accumulation of deviations. It would appear the biggest flaw of the Diagram is the lack of a contingency plan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Yes, no plan survives direct contact with reality. The diagram appears to have little flexibility and high stakes, a recipe for disaster. Maybe supersmart Mr.T still didn't have enough information to know he most likely wouldn't have another day like that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Yes, no plan survives direct contact with reality. The diagram appears to have little flexibility and high stakes, a recipe for disaster. Maybe supersmart Mr.T still didn't have enough information to know he most likely wouldn't have another day like that? It seems flexible to me. There's even contingency plans for the case where it was predicted Szeth might kill Taravangian (in which case, it talks about who takes over). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 I assumed that it just saud they would need someobe else to take over if they managed to get a truthless abd he betrayed them, nothing impressive. I wonder if they ever tried to send someone to ask the nightwatcher for an update to the diagram, or though it woulg be to dangerous. I mean asking for something that can change the fate of the world will bring a BIG curse. Also, the diagram is not flexible because it requires the destruction of potential assets. If he had killed Dalinar there would be an army of trained voidbringers marching West. If the kingdoms of the West had been as broken as Jah Keved he probaly wouldn't be able to take control before looters and warlords took the supplies and gems for soulcasting and spebt then for war, deprieving him of redources. And every nation he brings down makes the world lose workforce, soldiers and scholars that would help rebuild. The diagram can't accept half victorys, for they would be worse than defeats. Either if fails completely and just kills a bunch of people for nothing or it succeds completely and saves the world. Every half completed plan is a sacrifice with no pay off that makes it harder to succed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 The interesting thing for me about the Diagram is how it's basically become a "religious" document for Taravangian (depending on your definition of religious). It's (supposedly) the path to salvation. it effectively makes prophesies about the future. Taravangian is the high priest and feels that it's his mission to enact it, regardless of the cost. It's rather different in practice to your "typical" religious text but to Taravangian it's the equivalent to the Word of God. Unfortunately, their understanding of it is imperfect and it's usefulness will probably get worse with time rather than better... and to me that's the real flaw. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok he/him Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 In conclusion, Taravangian's diagram has done nothing but bring pain, without a hope of success. First, I agree that the Diagram brings about pain, chaos, and destruction. It has destabilized the world, and directly led to the deaths of thousands (at a minimum). The question that is yet to be resolved is if it actually can succeed (and, if it can, if it's worth the cost.) There've been a few other threads discussing the Diagram. One particularly strong argument that I remember Moogle (I think it was Moogle. Apologies to whoever is responsible in case I'm wrong) making in the past in favor of it is that, essentially, it's better storytelling if the Diagram can succeed in saving Roshar from Odium. Giving the reader two drastically, diametrically opposed viewpoints and methods of success that are both viable is much more interesting than one very strong option and one very large strawman that is built to fail. Even if the Diagram were the only way for people on Roshar to survive, it's still very much an act of evil. (The deliberate murder of innocents for the possibility of getting a hint at how to survive is evil, I'm sure we can all agree.) I think that it's wrong, and the conflict that will come about with the Radiants will likely be disastrous. And the Diagram, honestly, may not be worth pursuing--even if it would lead to victory. Some costs I'm just not willing to pay, ya know? But having "good" and "evil" plans competing for the survival of a planet is actually pretty awesome, when ya think about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CabbageHead he/him Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think that the Diagram is probably not flawed, it probably does contain enough consideration of probability to be of use. However, what is flawed is the use of the Diagram. Taravangian asked for the capacity to save Roshar. He has decided that that only comes about with great intelligence, and he has instructed his followers to disallow any decisions made when he is in his "moral" phases. That is the weakness in their interpretations. Taravangian should always be allowed to make judgements, but on different topics dependent on his current mindstate. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paranoid King he/him Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I think that although the diagram may be flawed, we are missing the bigger picture here: When Taravangian is smart, he doesn't care about people. Taravangian was impossibly smart on that day Therefore, Taravangian didn't care about people on that day. If that's so, then why would he ever make a diagram to save these people? Why not a diagram to call forth the voidbringers, or to awaken the stormfather? He has the capacity to save the kingdom.... But that doesn't mean he will... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight he/him Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I think that although the diagram may be flawed, we are missing the bigger picture here: When Taravangian is smart, he doesn't care about people. Taravangian was impossibly smart on that day Therefore, Taravangian didn't care about people on that day. If that's so, then why would he ever make a diagram to save these people? Why not a diagram to call forth the voidbringers, or to awaken the stormfather? He has the capacity to save the kingdom.... But that doesn't mean he will... That's a good observation. I think it comes down to "practicality" and the "logic" of a situation. And since we do not know what his base ideal was on that day, we do not know if the Diagram will ultimately serve Odium by design. I would say if his Ideal is to save Roshar the planet, the Diagram will go against Odium but will not necessarily necessitate the survival of mankind. If it's to save mankind, that still does not mean that it will try to save as much of mankind. Could be just the species, and specifically those members that would insure its survival and success in the world to come (kinda like eugenics). If he has contempt for mankind and feels that someone/something Superior needs to keep them in line... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 If that's so, then why would he ever make a diagram to save these people? Why not a diagram to call forth the voidbringers, or to awaken the stormfather? Just because he loses compassion doesn't mean he becomes Ruin, or something like that. Even when he wrote up a law to have people of low IQ kill themselves, he was doing it "for the good of the city", not to destroy everything. Losing compassion just means he becomes willing to throw away people as pawns to help his goals. If nothing else, he lives on Roshar, so he'd probably like to save himself (though he was perfectly fine with a plan that had a strong chance of Szeth killing him, so he's not quite that focused on self-preservation). Plainly, he didn't make the Diagram with the goal of calling forth the Voidbringers. The Sons of Honor did that, not the Diagramists. Even if the Diagram's goal was to destroy the world or something, that relies on Taravangian and the legion of scholars interpreting the work not realizing that it's going to do that. They know how the plan ends; if they didn't like how it was going to turn out, they'd not follow it. As well, Taravangian wrote it. It seems very likely that he'd know what he was doing when he wrote the Diagram. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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